XSF Discussion - 2022-05-01

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07:41:08 flow I think MIX/MUC would not be the first pair of protocols I'd think of in this regard but they certainly fall into that category (if you ignore the fact that there are ~20 years between them). But it shows that its perfectly fine to continue working on the two protocols: we have some people who believe that MUC can and should be graduately improved to meet the requirements of our "modern" times. and some people saw a need for a build-from scratch architecture of a groupchat protocol. which is certainly worth trying and exploring
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08:10:11 emus And we actually have the option to run two paths of "features"
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08:51:07 raucao but without clear terminology, it's confusing for users. one should not have to learn protocol acronyms just to join a chat room. someone not using the easier, centralized platforms is already a lot to ask in the first place, and then not being able to join a room, for example, causes a bad experience which then get memorized as "xmpp bad/fussy"
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09:17:50 Toxi raucao right, but :)) they are so afraid of saying something wrong that they prefer to send only an icon. And just for a icon a day any centralized platform im does the job.
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09:23:31 mdosch ~~I don't think users have to know acronyms. My family is using xmpp and doesn't know about xmpp, muc, mam, csi etc..~~ ✎
09:23:47 mdosch I don't think users have to know acronyms. My family is using xmpp and they don't know about xmpp, muc, mam, csi etc.. ✏
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09:25:24 Toxi Of course not. But then we have a bigger problem. How do we replace them with simple words?
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09:28:13 mdosch Do you need to? Do endusers need to know about technical details of the protocol?
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09:28:50 flow raucao, that is, I believe, one idea of modernxmpp.org: to abstract the technical protocol terms with a more or less standardized terms for end-users
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09:28:59 mdosch Do WhatsApp users talk about funXMPP or people browsing the web know about https, TLS etc.?
09:28:59 flow Toxi, ↑
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09:37:09 Toxi You know i am german, my english is bad, but i try to answer you. In the 50s we decided that everyone had to learn to read and write. Was that wrong? Why should people today remain informationally illiterate? Why shouldn't we demand a little?
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09:42:20 flow Because every little hurdle cuts your userbase in half and is simply unnecessary
09:43:10 msavoritias The fact that we call it userbase shows a lot about how everything has gone wrong in the tech community imo
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09:48:57 raucao I was specifically replying to using MUC and MIX side by side
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09:50:51 raucao yes, something simpler like referring to MUC as "classic" and MIX as "modern" could help somewhat, but still makes it more confusing, and also needs at least the most popular client app UIs to adopt the terms consistently
09:51:08 raucao imho
09:51:46 raucao I'd love to hear good ideas for the service I run to adopt MIX while keeping the existing MUC channels intact
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09:51:54 raucao and without users being confused
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09:52:57 Andrzej raucao, it is possible to have MIX channels being accessed by MUC-only capable clients, so they could even be migrated to MIX as long as they would be accessible and usable with MUC
09:53:24 flow exactly, users do not need to care about MIX vs MUC
09:53:41 flow although, reaching this state requires a lot of effort
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09:58:45 raucao so I can do that right now with ejabberd or prosody for example? I didn't know that
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10:01:13 raucao a seamless migration would be perfect of course
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10:09:04 Ellenor Malik Let not Masto and Pleroma steal the term "fediverse" from diverse federated universes which started with SMTP.
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10:15:22 sebastian I think it is to late
10:18:17 sebastian To be fair.... actually I never heard fediverse in email and xmpp context, before I heard this name/word with the rise of Mastodon 🤔 "Federated" or "Federation", yes, i knew that from the beginning. But also I only started really being seriously interested in xmpp in 2015 and Mastodon in 2018... So I don't consider myself an expert.
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10:26:19 mathieui Never heard it before mastodon either, tbh
10:26:56 Ellenor Malik that is true
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10:29:00 mdosch I think those activitypub things just wanted a more fancy term than federated network.
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10:30:37 Ellenor Malik ye
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11:03:20 flow raucao, it is (proably) possible does not mean that it is implemented
11:03:59 flow that's the "reaching this state requires a lot of effort" part
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11:06:28 Andrzej flow, MIX-MUC integration depends on the implementation of MIX which you use. I worked on one and I think it works ok, so it is implemented.
11:07:44 flow Andrzej, but this is not an implemention for prosody nor ejabberd, right?
11:08:03 Andrzej yes, but it exists
11:08:31 flow Andrzej, would be sure nice to have a writeup with the lessons learned about this (assuming there are any)
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11:09:02 flow Andrzej, well, I never said that such an implementation does *not* exist :)
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11:15:41 raucao Andrzej: great! which one is it?
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11:16:20 Andrzej it is part of Tigase XMPP Server
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11:16:43 raucao > Andrzej, would be sure nice to have a writeup with the lessons learned about this (assuming there are any) yeah, that would be nice indeed!
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11:17:32 raucao cool, so I could test it on a different domain with tigase then, right?
11:17:55 Andrzej lessons learned over 2 years ago...
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11:18:00 raucao does it include migration?
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11:18:10 raucao I.e. switching existing rooms?
11:18:33 raucao > lessons learned over 2 years ago... Still valuable if nobody else implemented it since then
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11:18:45 Andrzej yes, you could test it. no, it supports just creation of MIX channels (using MIX protocol) but accessible then by anyone with MIX or MUC compatible client
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11:19:04 raucao cool, thanks
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11:20:18 raucao I'm wondering if we need an XEP for generic channel migration
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11:20:32 raucao also useful when you just want to switch providers
11:20:59 raucao and could then solve that problem also
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11:22:03 raucao however, keeping existing chat domains is probably important for many
11:22:08 Andrzej I do think that the best would be to migrate from MUC to MIX using the same provider as it would be optimized for storage used
11:22:35 raucao right
11:22:38 Andrzej then it would just migrate data on the existing jids
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14:00:02 raucao Andrzej: so after having implemented it 2 years ago, would you recommend everyone implement it these days?
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15:33:42 Guus Andrzej: can you give a rough estimation of the amount of effort involved in your implementation?
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16:15:59 moparisthebest Mix still requires support on the server of the account joining right?
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16:16:18 moparisthebest Like if this was a mix channel my server would also need support?
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16:16:54 moparisthebest That alone makes it utterly useless, just deploy a muc bouncer on your server and all problems solved without mix?
16:17:16 moparisthebest Biboumi but for muc
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17:54:53 bung Test
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17:55:27 bung I love Xmpp, but I don't use Linux. Is it a problem if I don't use Linux and like Xmpp?
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17:56:26 Guus bung: no.
17:56:28 msavoritias bung: no why would it be? I dont use linux either :)
17:57:34 bung Oh good :)
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18:05:52 moparisthebest I mean it's a problem but it's unrelated to XMPP >:)
18:07:05 Holger Might just be a bit of a problem if you don't use Android and like XMPP 😜
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18:20:37 bung I like privacy
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18:21:16 bung But some programs dont support very well on the Linux
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18:28:21 bung But maybe i use other laptop
18:28:25 bung No problem?
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18:46:16 Andrzej Guus, effort was medium to large as I was building it on a full PubSub component. If I would implement only necessary parts that would be a lot simpler as I could simplify permissions checking, etc. Adding just MUC to MIX was very simple and easy
18:47:22 Andrzej raucao, I would still suggest implementing it as it has better experience on iOS (ususally offline devices) than MUC
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18:48:45 Andrzej moparisthebest, MIX can be used without support on your local server - only for push notifications you might get a better experience if support for MIX is on your server
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18:49:45 Andrzej our clients Siskin & Beagle can work with MIX with or without support on used server for MIX
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18:53:46 Link Mauve Andrzej, so what is the role of PAM nowadays?
18:54:02 Link Mauve Are clients still encouraged to include MIX channels in the user’s roster?
18:54:15 Link Mauve I haven’t played with this spec in so long…
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18:54:21 Andrzej PAM is useful for faster message sync and for sync of channels between clients
18:54:31 Andrzej but MIX can work without it
18:54:37 Link Mauve Ah, that’s quite a lot already. ^^
18:55:06 Link Mauve Especially the latter, people get confused when they join a MUC on one client and it doesn’t appear immediately in their other clients.
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18:56:21 Andrzej that is why I prefer MIX over MUC
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18:57:51 Link Mauve With XEP-0402 we have that nowadays in MUC too.
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19:17:04 Andrzej Link Mauve, but we still do not have push notifications for offline users in MUC as there are no offline users in MUC AFAIR
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19:17:27 Andrzej but yes, MUC is "getting there"
19:17:46 Link Mauve I think I saw some development towards that, but you would know better than me as I don’t follow iOS stuff closely.
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19:43:56 kinetik Can anyone recommend any reading material on XMPP? I'm really looking for high-level overview of the philosophy behind it and stuff like that, more than how to use libraries and whatnot.
19:44:57 Daniel kinetik: have you read the rfc?
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19:45:11 kinetik No, is that a good place to start?
19:46:00 msavoritias Yes
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19:46:18 Daniel It's certainly not a bad place to start
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19:47:38 Link Mauve kinetik, perhaps this page? https://xmpp.org/about/technology-overview/
19:48:50 kinetik Thanks, Link Mauve, I see that page has links to the RFCs as well
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21:07:37 emus btw: https://xmpp.org/rfcs/
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