XSF Discussion - 2022-05-05

crypt: there was an Incident about a year ago that resulted in s.j.n going offline for a time. so I think, seriously, "run your own" is not a bad suggestion--that way you can evaluate your own willingness to deal with abuse reports and legal threats, which may vary from others' ✏

Kev: could you explain a bit how in-protocol curating would work?

an XMPP server could have a "referral service" that users could run disco#items against to get a listing. just like listing a conference server's own rooms, except potentially they'd be in many locations

wgreenhouse: I appreciate your comment and suggestion. But my beef with "out of scope" is what I said earlier: > Not everything has to be family friendly (or politically correct). Not everything that's controversial or edgy should be reported. I agree with others that this subject has run its course in this room.

* reported (and delisted)

crypt: fair enough. I wasn't sure if you were aware of the context that s.j.n actually went down for a time over a dispute about its moderation

> wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:00 (CDT) > crypt: fair enough. I wasn't sure if you were aware of the context that s.j.n actually went down for a time over a dispute about its moderation Not aware

yeah.

**Quick sincerity check:** if I or someone else made an alternative room directory, would the XSF/xmpp.org list it under "getting started"? What would be the criteria for it to be allowed? ✏

crypt: here is how s.j.n got added: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/622

not that long ago in the grand scheme

now at least we're on topic as you're asking "how do I suggest changes to the xsf website"

and I think the answer is "make a PR to add a useful community resource"

there are already e.g. multiple server directories included

wgreenhouse: One possible mistake I made was thinking search.jabber.network was also run by the XSF, but the whois is private. Don't know.

crypt: yeah, s.j.n is a one-person volunteer project; I believe the volunteer is a sometime _participant_ in the xsf, but it is not endorsed or managed in any way by xsf. just a community resource listed there, like the selection of server listings compiled by others.

https://search.jabber.network/legal has all the info about s.j.n's owner

> wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:25 (CDT) > crypt: yeah, s.j.n is a one-person volunteer project; I believe the volunteer is a sometime _participant_ in the xsf, but it is not endorsed or managed in any way by xsf. just a community resource listed there, like the selection of server listings compiled by others. This is a sane conversation. Thank you for providing context.

This room can get a bit toxic if you have different opinions or ideas.

> wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:26 (CDT) > https://search.jabber.network/legal has all the info about s.j.n's owner This is great. I might reach out to Jonas this way.

Fwiw I for example am glad that s.j.n has strong content moderation polices. Or else I wouldn't be able to include it in Conversations

Defending other people's so called free speech is fine as long as it's not your door that's gets kicked in by the police.

> Daniel: > 2022-05-04 11:31 (CDT) > Fwiw I for example am glad that s.j.n has strong content moderation polices. Or else I wouldn't be able to include it in Conversations That tells me any alternative that doesn't follow the exact same policy would be excluded. So much for user choice. Could or can a user add a room directory of their choice in Conversations?

If no, why not?

From Conversations in particular? Yes absolutely. But I wouldn't call it 'excluded'. Just not included

> Daniel: > 2022-05-04 11:35 (CDT) > From Conversations in particular? Yes absolutely. But I wouldn't call it 'excluded'. Just not included Not sure I follow

Conversations can list s.j.n (default) or the MUC service of its own xmpp server (by toggling a setting--but then you only get results local to that server). s.j.n defines an API some other service could similarly use. some fork of Conversations could point to a different search domain.

A fork is partial choice. But to enable/add an alternative to your client shouldn't require permission from the dev (his moral point of view).

crypt: point me to a matrix client that can use a room directory other than the one hosted by matrix.org :D

that situation is actually a great deal worse

the equivalent to the local search option doesn't exist

wgreenhouse: don't change the subject (but I do have an answer) 😎

crypt: ok. settings have a cost, though. if you read through Conversations's issues and PRs, most of them are literally Daniel rejecting a setting. because tech debt and making UI more confusing. most of the many Conversations forks are to add back a setting Conversations rejected.

other clients (Gajim for example) have never seen any configuration option they thought was a bad idea.

> wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:44 (CDT) > crypt: ok. settings have a cost, though. if you read through Conversations's issues and PRs, most of them are literally Daniel rejecting a setting. because tech debt and making UI more confusing. > most of the many Conversations forks are to add back a setting Conversations rejected. It should be as easy as adding a link to that room directory. Out of his control or concern.

crypt: that's adding a setting, however. currently it's a 2-way toggle; s.j.n or your own server's MUC listing. you want to add a third, and a fillable

> wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:46 (CDT) > crypt: that's adding a setting, however. currently it's a 2-way toggle; s.j.n or your own server's MUC listing. you want to add a third, and a fillable Yup. Perfect.

ok. write the PR. high probability of reject simply because it adds a setting :)

then you've got your Conversations fork.

anyway, this is again straying off the topic. conversations is also not controlled or managed by xsf

But it's a revealing exercise on freedom and censorship

Have a goodnight everyone!

You can also probably try to buy s.j.n for $44b in order to change the rules.

Only to ultimately discover that the rules are there for a reason

> Daniel: > 2022-05-05 12:00 (CDT) > Only to ultimately discover that the rules are there for a reason YouTube's censorship crew would agree.

Probably Twitter and Facebook, too. ✏

Exactly

> Daniel: > 2022-05-05 12:04 (CDT) > Exactly Glad you enjoy that world. You can keep it.

Can you try to inform yourself to German law, or shut up really! And really setup your own world with your views and don't try to force others to make it against their beliefs

Not posting something on their own website is not censorship

You can use this decentralized network and you'll *not* be censored. Only not everyone might want to see everything. And thats ok

*You can eat bread or bread. Which will it be?*

I don't know your goal. sjn will not change its tos because of text here... And the xsf will not create its own service.. They are for the technical standards of the protocol

(And also further inquiries or demands may be seen as an additional hassle to running the service, which may lead to it shutting down)

hi jonas’, a friendly reminder about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pubsub-public-subscriptions.html. Thanks!

yes. I need to rework my editor schedule. Thanks for bumping.

are there known issues with Adium's implementation of BOSH?

specifically 1.5.10.4?

crypt: I wouldn't have a problem with making the search service configurable in Converse. I'm sympathetic to free speech concerns and don't like the IMO extreme censorship that's been on social media the last few years. That said, it's a complex topic and I also understand the viewpoint of people who want to filter out certain content. As a personal example, I'd rather my child is not too easily exposed to a lot of stuff online.

jonas’, editor-ial: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0425.html stuck in LC? (sorry jc, wrong tab) ✏

and here I was hoping it wouldn't concern me

Well come to think of it, concerns jcbrand too

https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2022-01-05?p=h#2022-01-05-fa0ce69fd8b2d0be

Message referencing eh

> are there known issues with Adium's implementation of BOSH? Guus: libpurple clients are still vulnerable to trivial undetectable-by-the-user mitm

I do one day want to address the concerns, but it's not high on my list of priorities ATM

moparisthebest: thanks, but I was after functional issues. I've got one person that seems to have an issue that any new outbound stanza is delayed until the longpoll of the preexisting HTTP request is over.

(which introduces weird delays)

moparisthebest: libpurple clients are still vulnerable to trivial undetectable-by-the-user mitm Do you have a link?

*IM*, https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2022-February/038759.html

Thanks!

moparisthebest, https://keep.imfreedom.org/pidgin/pidgin/rev/d25fecfb02f9

Isn't libpurple used by Matrix too?

Zash, awesome! I assumed they'd forgotten about it :D Now we just need that CVE opened up so all the distros can update

*IM*: that may or may not be the case, but this one is about DNS records for xmpp. So they are not vulnerable, even if they use it

Board?

I have stuff to discuss that has been waiting a while, so I'll send out an email if there's to be no meeting again

If I wanted to report something about the CoC (I don't), where would I do this btw? There doesn't seem to be anything mentioned in the room description nor topic, nothing on the website either ✏

Oh there is one page apparently mentioned the CoC.. where is it linked from.. ✏

`content/community/operators-rules.md` where am I supposed to find this page? https://xmpp.org/community/operators-rules{,/,.html} yield 404

pep., https://xmpp.org/community/channels/operators/

based on the url property in the header

Ah right..

But this still isn't linked from anywhere right?

At least on the website

`ack` finds https://xmpp.org/2021/07/the-xmpp-newsletter-june-2021/

It's in the topic on operators, that's good. I do think it should also be placed here, well the CoC, not especially this page

All concerned channels really

I might attempt a PR to move the CoC bits from the operators' page to one level higher (/community/)

sounds sensible

TIL joinjabber.org is appearing on xmpp.org

If you see someone using "jabber" how can you tell if they got a proper trademark license from the XSF for it?

They don’t need it AIUI.

Err, using in which sense?

In a product name there is the trademark page which lists them IIRC.

moparisthebest, https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/ should explain things a bit.

So "report it to the board" ?

Ok board what about https://www.sitejabber.com/

IANAL but I don't see any issue with that

"leaving reviews and responding to them" is basically chat no?

I am not a judge, either 🙂

I just know I had some brand confusion when it popped up when I was trying to buy some tires :)

« The XSF wouldn’t be possible without the support of our sponsors. If your company is interested in sponsoring the XSF, we’d love to talk. » What is this doing on the community page?

Soliciting sponsors, by the look of it.

MattJ: I mentioned here a while back that the current meeting time is difficult for me to make. I should probably write an email to the board

jcbrand: I gather it's less than ideal for everyone (including me). Worth trying again to find a better time, but last time we tried this was the least-worst

Kev, thanks I can read

pep.: I would imagine gathering sponsors is part of a community effort

That's already more of an answer :)

well we're definitely not missing links to the sponsors page on the website..

And companies using XMPP are part of the community, so it makes sense to remind them that sponsors are appreciated

Regarding my first question today, I'm still wondering where to get support when somebody is overstepping or violating the CoC, if I had to.

Is it still board?

looks like the moderators of the channel first

the "Conduct team"

The CoC says Board and the Conduct team.

« The final decision on such exclusions is made by the Board, who may from time to time appoint a Work Team, called the Conduct Team, to act on their behalf. If the Work Team has not been appointed, the Conduct Team is the Board. There are exceptions to this - in particular any right of elected members of the Foundation under the Bylaws cannot be curtailed by the Board, though the Board (or any other any member) could start the process to eject a member. This means that members are trusted by the other members to a higher degree than other participants; something that should be considered during elections. »

Is the Conduct team a thing already

It's currently just Board, unless I missed it.

Always have a hard time finding teams on the website

I don’t think we have a conduct team yet, but contacting board or one or several individuals should achieve the same purpose

https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/

it says things like "as soon as moderators are made aware..." so you should contact channel moderators first at least

conduct team / board are last resorts

Which it - the CoC or the operators page?

Sure, well that's fine if moderators are not in

That's the operators' page

I'm rewriting it slightly

And moving it

AFAICS, the CoC trumps the operators page.

Or should.

So I think a rework of that page is deserved, thanks pep.

Should, probably, but I do think it's a bit thick to read ✏

So when trying to summarize the CoC in a short list, I actually don't manage to come up with more then: - DO: Be welcoming and inclusive. Make the XSF a place where people are happy and comfortable. - DONT: Discriminate based on culture, religion, size and shape, sex, experience or ability.

I do feel like I'm missing things (not understanding things) in the text

https://gitweb.torproject.org/community/policies.git/plain/code_of_conduct.txt something like this with a shortlist of DOs and DONTs included in the document is quite helpful

I do feel the personal attacks / ad hominem bit is pretty important (and we had a clear breach of that here the other day, although I didn't bother reporting it as Board members were here at the time too).

I also wonder why there had to be XSF-made document for this also. Stuff like Tor's are actually great

There was certainly personal attacks the other day, but to be fair there was stuff to report from both sides

if a CoC can't be summarized as "be nice to each other" it's a bad CoC

("We vote with our feet and code around here, we don't sit around whining wishing someone else would do something for us" definitely falls into "Don't discriminate based on [..] experience or ability" to me)

I disagree, but also, put it in context

Definitely, that's why I reacted when you said it :)

obvious troll complaining in the wrong channel after being told nicely over and over, meh

"voting with your feet" doesn't require experience or ability

I'm going to try to put up something, but I guess the best would have to have this shortlist in the spec itself

Maybe there shouldn't be a /community/code-of-conduct and directly redirect to the spec, but then it needs to be clear, not like it is now

I disagree with making trolls feel welcome. That's a classic paradox of tolerance

I should have just ignored him and not trolled back though

From what I saw in xsf@, I wasn't able to say. I do agree I couldn't care less for fascists getting their stuff unlisted, but that's no reason to get worked up in here ✏

(let's not be afraid to use words :))

(It's not just "trolls")

I don't want to go assuming what he wanted listed, he could just be a horse porn connoisseur

he was a troll because it was unrelated to this room and wouldn't stop despite being told nicely

moparisthebest [20:55]: > if a CoC can't be summarized as "be nice to each other" it's a bad CoC Can't we just have that sentence as the CoC then? But then it's obvious common sense anyway, isn't it?

This is a free USican discrimination, but I love how you spell connoisseur :D

It's not even clear they even wanted to create a room at all

Ge0rG, it means nothing though

> ("We vote with our feet and code around here, we don't sit around whining wishing someone else would do something for us" definitely falls into "Don't discriminate based on [..] experience or ability" to me) This kind of language policing highlights pretty well my reservations with CoCs.

pep., if you think I know how to spell connoisseur and didn't just use ddg and copy+paste it you are mistaken :D

Tbh it's like saying we're inclusive in a document, yay we have the keyword, now what does that mean (not saying this in relation to the XSF's, just in general)

The more explicit the rules are worded, the easier it is to violate the spirit of the rules while following the word

The common rebuttal is "we won't get literal and maintain the spirit" but I don't buy it ✏

what Ge0rG just said is exactly my sentiment

moparisthebest, yeah no it's correct in english I think, and it certainly comes from french, but in french it's spelled « connaisseur » :P

Well the idea is to agree on common grounds. That's the hardest part. It's not because there is a document that the magic is done anyway

That's a cultural change

pep. Can you break down the word? I'm guessing it's some kind of compound noun or perhaps the doer of something. Like "taster" or "enjoyer"

well we can all agree we should be nice to each other I suppose

You weren't all that nice earlier today TBH

You in the plural, not singling out one person

If you have very loose wording, you'll get trolls complaining about arbitrary treatment. If you have specific wording, you'll get trolls complaining about not following the word of the rule

jcbrand, « connaître » is « to know », and -sseur is for the person who [..]

ah, so knower

Thanks

Aren't code of conducts a thing invented by the CIA to waste everyone's time?

Ge0rG, also why this is literally in Tor's CoC: DON'T: Hunt for ways to uphold the letter of this code while violating its spirit.

TIL, neat, I also thought it was more like "enjoyer"

Daniel, hah. You wish

> Aren't code of conducts a thing invented by the CIA to waste everyone's time? Not the CIA, but moral busybodies

I guess you're referring to the saboteur's kit

But anyway, no. This is solely a set of common rules. Because no, rules aren't "obvious", "common sense" isn't actually common, it's different in every culture and sub-culture

So having a set of guidelines to go by is useful

All I know is that this infighting of progressive groups already was well reflected in that 1979 comedy that must not be shown in Germany on Easter Friday

Surely it's the fault of the progressives :)

They're trying to bring the world down

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

Recent events makes me wonder if the inverse is true

Sure, and this is a collective effort

Concerning CoC, I think "don't harass people" is a rule most reasonable people can get behind and which is perhaps not so easy to apply overeagerly

jcbrand, yeah but it's sometimes helpful to know who's harassing who exactly

Well, if it's not clear, then I'd do what you do with kids. You tell them both to stop and to leave one another alone

Very often it isn't completely perpetrator vs victim

Very often both people had a role in escalating the situation

Sometimes one says something and that'll trigger a reaction on the other side because it was actually discriminatory and the first one didn't know, and the other one reacted as badly and they're the only ones to get blamed and no one reflects on this and life goes on

Getting triggered and lashing out at people is IMO not ok

I do agree

Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not IMO some kind of thing that should be excused

And in the case I mention (which happens more often that one would think), it's useful to be able to isolate what triggered all this

Cant we get a template and adapt it pep. ? I know of this template for example or we can get something else: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/

msavoritias, well there's already https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html so I'm not sure what to do

The person who wrote that calls herself "Big-time open source troublemaker and sworn enemy of the status quo."

heh, and I think it's nice

Death to the status quo

I wouldn't want anyone who's goal was to be a troublemaker in my group :P

Me neither

The empty pots make the loudest noise

The thing is when you're surrounded with people who think the same, you got to make lots of noise to be able to actually be heard ✏

???

Yeah, ?!

It's a saying, I don't know if it's in English

But it's in other languages

This conversation is just getting defocused, I feel

MattJ, I'm not sure. Well it's obviously not on presenting the CoC on the website anymore

The CoC has not had final approval yet (hence the "experimental" tag), I *think* there are still some pending edits, but I'd have to check

I'm still surprised though one has to take a stance for a CoC..

> This conversation is just getting defocused, I feel That's why the CIA invented them. Duh

:D

jcbrand, basically, we're not a homegenous group, we have different interests (culture, religion, race, sex, gender, whether we are a developer, a user, whether we work in a company, for money, or not, etc.) and they're getting onto each other, and the language we speak, behaviour we have, all of it reflects this. So having common rules that we agree on is good I think

be nice, talk about xmpp

I am!

can we have a Summit yet? to remind us that there are people attached to these nicknames? 🙂

+1

Zash: but those people are almost exclusively privileged white men

That is true

:P

Maybe the XSF wants to actively encourage other people to join? And/or help them join even

Just enlist them without their knowledge

Right, and check the greenbox

I think a recent dilbert cartoon covered this scenario

as far as I'm concerned the XSF encourages everyone who wants to to join, and doesn't know anything about them other then their nicknames, and that's how it should be

unfortunately the membership process requires divulging those, but you can participate quite a bit without doing that

In lieu (I can speak French too 😉 ) of a summit, we could also just have sprints again

can't have summits anymore, that certainly excludes people based on their ability to travel >:)

jcbrand, actually let me edit what I said above. We are not homogenous, but we are not really diverse either (a majority being white males employed in tech), so having these rules also allow us to encourage people not like us to join. Of course just having this document isn't enough, we also need to work on it

moparisthebest: Ah yes, travelist

"as far as I'm concerned the XSF encourages everyone who wants to to join" how?

> can't have summits anymore, that certainly excludes people based on their ability to travel >:) I know this is a joke. But this is actually a real problem

Just saying it won't make people come magically

With the 'official' summit hotel being really expensive and so on

pep. Don't rules do the opposite? Instead of encouraging people not like us, they encourage other people to be like us.

jcbrand, I depends on the rules?

Daniel, yeah and being in belgium also, in europe.

This seems like unnecessary hand-wringing to me. It's before a very large free conference and AFAICT most active members are in the EU

Also, people on other continents are free to organize their own events

Coming from South Africa, I know a lot about what it's like to be isolated from events

If you don't have the resources to travel you don't have the resources to put on a conference

That's not true

I put on a sprint in South Africa and got funding from the Plone foundation

And some US devs even flew to be there

"most active member are in the EU" "people on other continents are free to organize their own events", this isn't exactly how I see "trying to be inclusive"

I'm not seriously suggesting we never have a summit for that reason, but it is *extremely hard* for me to attend

Sure, but what should we do about that? ✏

When I lived in SA it was also extremely hard for me to attend things

keep doing most work in XMPP and carry on

my only point is that you can't avoid all discrimination on everything no matter what you do

I don't know if Debian as a whole is a good example, but they try to host their conference in a different place every time and I think that's a great first step

Should we not hold summits because they're hard for some people to attend? I don't think so. Should we acknowledge that summits are not terribly inclusive to some people? I think so.

Kev, acknowledging would definitely be the greatest first start :)

Yes, where would we be without feeling guilty about things

Hasn't the XSF helped with travel before?

Zash: Yes, but its ability to do so is very limited.

It's been (AFAICR) always people already in the community that it wanted to have there.

I'd just rather we stop pretending you can never "discriminate based on ability" or whatever those words were

moparisthebest, as with everything it's not an absolute but a goal

if it's in the CoC as a rule it's an absolute

if it's a goal "be nice" covers it

we don't deal in absolutes here!

wait this isn't the Sith counsel ? oh no...

> Hasn't the XSF helped with travel before? For gsoc students, we did.

> With the 'official' summit hotel being really expensive and so on Laziness on my part.

One way to help the geographically challenged, could be to have breakout conferences at the same time

moparisthebest, should I be banned because I discriminated againt my own class? :)

I.e. people in the US can meet at the same time and connect via video and XMPP

Or in India or whereever

I think it'd be hard, (timezones), but it would be good to try

ah yes, timezones

> I.e. people in the US can meet at the same time and connect via video and XMPP We used to have two summits per year, geographically separated.

jcbrand, yeah, that little detail :p

US is a big place, it's about the same level of difficulty for me to travel to san francisco as belgium

> We used to have two summits per year, geographically separated. I"m guessing the US summit doesn't happen anymore due to lack of attendees?

moparisthebest: I remember a pep talk about voting with feet and not whining or something

sorry I started this, there's nothing wrong with the summit, and no one should feel bad about it, I was just trying to make a point about CoCs :P

Board already struggles with the timezone problem

> I"m guessing the US summit doesn't happen anymore due to lack of attendees? I think so. Most people in here are from the EU continent, I think?

I think we could all easily agree to abolish timezones :)

jcbrand, the last one I attended in the US was just a handful of people, and half of those were working for &yet who (at the time) were working a lot with XMPP

The XSF doesn'T actually have to organise events on all continents if there isn't demand for it, but it can propose to help/take over organizing if there is ✏

> I think we could all easily agree to abolish timezones :) We can't even get you guys to abandon MM/DD/YY!

lol

Did we even agree to abolish DST?

Zash, wasn't that rolled back?

> The XSF doesn'T actually have to organise events on all continents if there isn't demand for it, but it can propose to help/take over organizing if there is Isn't that basically the sprint things? I quite liked that.

I'm trying to organize an OMEMO sprint

« jcbrand> pep. Don't rules do the opposite? Instead of encouraging people not like us, they encourage other people to be like us. » fwiw this is also a concern of mine. The text can say something and we can aply it some other way, or the text can say what we expect it to say (inclusivity and all) and we can not apply it this way. Or the text can say something and we can apply it correctly but not doing anything for the excluded groups..

pep. I think the question is also are certain groups actively excluded, or are they simply disinterested?

> pep. wrote: > jcbrand, actually let me edit what I said above. We are not homogenous, but we are not really diverse either (a majority being white males employed in tech), so having these rules also allow us to encourage people not like us to join. Of course just having this document isn't enough, we also need to work on it I agree completely how can we encourage people to join that are *different* than us if we dont make them feel safe

Or perhaps not able to (e.g. due to geography)

jcbrand, talking only about online activity, thinking that these groups aren't (not just marginaly) among us "because they're not interested" would be wrong IMO. That's pushing the ball to them saying "well it's your fault for not coming to us" when we might not have been doing anything to encourage them, or we've been doing it but badly

I don't think it's helpful to talk about who's "fault" it is.

I'm not looking to blame, just trying to point at things to improve

Saying "white males" isn't to blame white males to be white males IMO

That's useless

Yeap agreed. Some groups need to be encouraged and/or helped to contribute

Sounds paternalistic to me

can anyone give a concrete example of any person/group that should "come to us" that is not for any reason ?

I don't even like that language, why should anyone "come to us" in the first place? only if they feel like it I suppose

I'm not talking about going fishing either, fwiw

moparisthebest: thats the thing though. If they: Dont feel safe Dont have the resources Need guidance We are not clear Or more cases even. Its not always about of they feel like its also if they can

Not everybody in life is want/dont want

do we have any concrete examples of any of those things happening?

if they are we should 100% fix them, it's hard to deal in conjecture though

For me the whole way of phrasing things in terms of "feeling safe" is problematic. It's incredibly subjective. Some people who have anxiety disorders will never feel safe, no matter what we do ✏

moparisthebest: You mean not have the resources? Look at income levels in places Safety? Read some articles on discrimination/harrasment Likewise for the rest of the problems Im not saying these are happening in xsf. I am saying these are happeninp in general

jcbrand, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying, should we

So people need encouragement because they have been burned before

One step to that is the COC

I mean I guess I have concrete examples of "not feeling safe", back in the day some forums were well-known for if anyone new posted anything a ton of people would reply with "haha noob", but we don't do that here

pep. I think making an effort to be friendly and reasonable is enough, and everyone here and in the XSF already do that

msavoritias, right, but are any applicable to the XSF ? not that I'm aware of

moparisthebest: We dont. I agree. But people dont know that. So lets roght it in the COC. We dont descriminate based on experience

> We dont descriminate based on experience What does that mean?

but if it just said "Be kind to each other" wouldn't that tell them that and more ?

jcbrand: I kinda disagree, judging by the last few days (but not just). There is much that could be improved still. Not saying it's not allowed to slip for sure, I also do often, but there is work being done on this I feel

You mean don't call people "noob"?

It's already covered under "be nice"

> moparisthebest wrote: > msavoritias, right, but are any applicable to the XSF ? not that I'm aware of I said that they are not. But thiy are happening elsewhere. And people are understandably reluctant because they have been burned before

> Zash escribió: > can we have a Summit yet? to remind us that there are people attached to these nicknames? 🙂 please

> moparisthebest wrote: > but if it just said "Be kind to each other" wouldn't that tell them that and more ? Would it? For you maybe. For me not. jcbrand

Every person is different as pep. Said

> jcbrand wrote: > You mean don't call people "noob"? I meant what moparisthebest wrote about tne forums

It already doesn't happen here though.

msavoritias, I appreciate that, so what would you like it to say? I just think we need some concrete examples

> jcbrand wrote: > It already doesn't happen here though. I know and i agree with you. People not in the community dont though. So lets tell them :)

a list of all the bad things we know about that we don't do would be a very long list

Yeah, I'm just not in love with long lists of rules

One example of not discriminating based on experience or skill could be lowering the amount of "PR welcome" answers

what is the alternative to that?

Without any explanation of how to do so, or having asked before if the person knew how to

what is the alternative answer if 1) you don't want to do it 2) you don't know of others that want to do it

pep. Do you have time to give in-depth explanations and/or to debug and fix the problems of every person who asks you for help with XMPP?

I'm not saying we have to be the help desk of the internet, right. But there are things we can do to help people feel welcome

Or to implement every requested feature?

in my opinion, anyone who wants to can learn to code and make a PR, so that wouldn't ever be discriminatory

I think correcting qnd approving: ttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html Would be a good step moparisthebest

jcbrand, of course not and that's not what I'm saying

Searching the logs, "PRs welcome" seems to have been mostly aimed at Ge0rG

Zash, well you get it, this kind of language in general

That was just one example

Ge0rG, PR welcome.

PRs welcome is slightly better than "I'm not going to spend time on this"

msavoritias, it's already been accepted no?

(that was free of charge)

moparisthebest: its still experimental afaik

jcbrand, no I think it's actually worse tbh

why?

> Accept as Experimental after unanimous approval by Board of the ProtoXEP draft for discussion within the community.

"I'm not going to spend time _reviewing or merging that PR_"

I can't say I looked up the lifecycle for procedural XEPs but I thought it was official

Also wasnt it pep. That looked at the xsf site and didnt find it somewhere easily accesible there?

Yeah, what Zash said is worse than "PRs welcome"

PRs welcome actually means, I'll help you if you make an effort

Of course, some people can't make a PR, I get that, but what am I supposed to do about that?

Does it though. It's nice if that's what it means to your, and it would be better phrased the way you just did for sure :)

to you*

More explicit

meh

"PR welcome" to me is often derogatory, "pscht, do it yourself"

pep., no, that's "patches welcome"

Same thing

Yeah, seems to me you choose to interpret it like that

jcbrand, hence the more explicit version being better :)

https://xkcd.com/1860/ ?

pep., would it be better to actually just say "do it your damn self if you want it done"

I agree "PR welcome" is basically that, but a more polite way

moparisthebest, that'd definitely make it more explicit :P

I tend to think the polite way is better...

Seems to me like we're really splitting hairs here, but ok pep. I'll keep it in mind

Not really better

what is a better way though?

The thing here is that, taking into account that it's harder online, how the person receiving the words understands it is important, I think, more than the intent (even though this is not to be dismissed at all)

You can't say "I didn't mean it this way so go cry alone it's not my fault" really, can you

still waiting for the better wording for "PR Welcome"

"It depends".

(No this is not an alternative wording for "PR welcome")

you are right that context matters, so in that case I have a suggestion for the CoC:

1. Be kind to each other 2. Assume good intentions

Personally its not just the PR welcome phrase. Its a larger thing. Its the whole mentality of some open source elitist communities of "If you dont know how to code or cant self host, you have no right to complain and i can do whatever i want." Which i realize it goes off topic so i will leave it here. Also a big topic either way.

that way when someone says "PR welcome" you should assume they mean "my apologies but I don't have the resources to put into this myself at the moment" and not "f*ck off and go away"

moparisthebest: Thats already in the COC we linked though 🤔

msavoritias, I mean, I do believe that, since anyone interested can easily learn to code and self host...

Not true. But anyway....

Even so, just because someone can't code doesn't mean I'm somehow obligated to spend my time and energy doing stuff for free for them

I mean it's a balancing act, some suggestions are good, and some not

> pep. escribió: > "PR welcome" to me is often derogatory, "pscht, do it yourself" In unpaid open-source I thought thats the idea? ✏

it's open source, that gives you more rights than *any* proprietary crap, and that's absolutely the best that can be done without enslaving devs

« moparisthebest> msavoritias, I mean, I do believe that, since anyone interested can easily learn to code and self host... » as said the other day, I definitely disagree with this

And I agree with msavoritias that it's not just about words but the idea behind it

who can use a computer that can't learn to code? any concrete examples?

"PR welcome" to me is an affirmation that the change suggestion is at least valid.

Guus yes

Nobody said to enslave the devs or force them to work on stuff they dont want here. moparisthebest jcbrand

Guus, jcbrand, well as I said above, unfortunately often it matters less what you intend to say rather that how it's interpreted, and it's great if people can understand each other without having to get all worked up first

I don't agree

People can always find something to be offended about

Well if you start this way, surely it's not gonna go well

Yes. But you can make it easier. Words matter.

I'm not only this way about computers by the way, I think anyone who drives a car should be able to change a tire, and people should be able to do minor house repairs etc etc

too much of our lives are controlled by computers to *not* be able to program some

jcbrand, that's the thing about not assuming that everybody has the same culture as you, and accept that they might not understand phrases as you mean them "because that's what I generally mean with it"

That goes both ways pep.

pep.: I don't think that I should be 100% responsible for "how people understand me" if the recipient is 100% willing to assume that I'm trying to be derogatory. ✏

Sure sure

I'm sitting on the sidelines eating popcorn. This is too good.

But a person that is from a marginal group is already making some effort to be here (judging by how we currently are welcoming and inclusive), so I'm personally willing to do some more effort

Lefties talking about being inclusive while excluding those they dislike for political beliefs, color of their skin, or sex.

I think we are all willing to do anything reasonable

crypt I'm not aware of anyone being excluded here

Fascists, white men, CIS gender

The name calling is rich

But go on..

crypt, how can we discriminate on political affiliation, gender, skin color etc if we have *no idea* what of those you have :P

anyway, troll is back :D

lol

Oh I am definitely going to exclude people based on them being fascists, for sure, if that's how you identity, crypt

But your behaviour does say enough tbh

crypt: you've lost me. I'm only talking about merge requests. Mostly performed by non-identifying anonymous handles/nicknames.

Also, I suspect that more than half of the "I welcome your PR" that I utter is aimed at people that I've been working with for years (and happily will work with for years).

I think hes back to the CoC

Heck, JC does it to me all the time 😂

> pep.: > 2022-05-05 03:49 (CDT) > Oh I am definitely going to exclude people based on them being fascists, for sure, if that's how you identity, crypt I'm apolitical, free thinker ✏

lol. sure

and I'm the pope

See you're ready to label people

Can I be inflammatory? :>

Please don't

Let's try to keep things to XMPP and not go into politics

I guess we're going to avoid and we'll just stop engaging and a mod would take care of it?

can we stop believing what we do isn't politics please

jcbrand, I'll give it my best shot :)

Can you point to an example of something I said that makes me a fascist? How do you define fascist?

crypt stop please

it isn't politics, protocols and code can be used by anyone, just how it should be

everything is politics, but it doesn't mean we have to drag world politics in here

> Zash: > 2022-05-05 03:54 (CDT) > everything is politics, but it doesn't mean we have to drag world politics in here Agree 100%

... tabs vs. spaces anyone?

The world is where we live, tho. Can we agree that assuming the two (XSF and world politics) don't have any contact points is foolhardy?

Guus, space tabs!

Guus, unicode snowmen!

Guus, non-breaking spaces ??

Zash: sounds very retro 80's for some reason!

Sounds like supercondensed weed brownies… :P

Honestly tho, XMPP and the XSF mainly interest me for political reasons. Not party politics or anything but the wider definition and I like the values currently espoused by the wider community.

I use XMPP and the XSF because it allows me to communicate with my family easier, I share views here with some people but not everyone and that's fine

I don't care if $insert-political-compass-coordinates wrote the spec/software, if it's helpful to me, I'll use it

And with traditional politics moving to ban or undermine E2EE in the US and EU, I don't think strictly keeping politics out is even possible.

Incidentally, I would really like the XSF to publicly communicate they're going to keep E2EE and not compromise or drop XEPs to undermine it.

I mean, I guess some issues we tackle *can be political* if you want to put it that way

I don't care WHO you are (identity politics). I care about how you think and treat me and others. Politics and tech shouldn't mix if you want "community".

Maybe we should host the xep protocols via onion adresses too :-)

I think privacy issues are deeply political. Without privacy, a free society is inherently impossible.

emus, a great idea, too. :)

really?

phryk, like https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7258 ?

moparisthebest, yes.

I like that idea too

PR welcome ? :D

emus, yes if you think back to the first crypto wars, there was a lot going on with export restrictions, so it should be possible to keep visits to XSF standards out of public DNS requests.

At least I'm happy xmpp.org isn't hosted on cloudflare.. Unlike the IETF

emus, thanks!

Indeed, well I think that would be nice to have somebackup places

pep.: sure!

And yeah I guess I'd be happy to have XEPs available on a .onion as well :)

moparisthebest, I'm not even an XSF member, also I think there should be a fair bit of cooperative authoring if the XSF is to make a statement like that.

phryk, you don't have to be (but you can be!), start it up anyway

wow, I cannot believe I was the first one with this idea

^^

am I?

emus, probably not, but I'd say it's the implementation that counts. :P

yep, wayback machine possibly too

gn8

moparisthebest, yeah, but would i even have a chance to get y'all to sign off on it? like, I don't even know who here besides Zash and jcbrand are actually XSF members.^^

night, emus.

same!

hah, i still got a couple hours work before me, but thanks. :P

phryk, sure, if it's a XEP there's a well defined submission process I can point you to/help you with, if it's something else... then I don't know but this is the place to ask

moparisthebest, is there already a social or political XEP like that? someone was previously talking about a CoC, is that an XEP, too?

statement? on what?

something like https://raw.githubusercontent.com/stpeter/manifesto/master/manifesto.txt ?

phryk, CoC is here https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html a Procedural XEP, I'd kind of like to see it like that

I guess then board would have to approve/reject

@Zash not dropping/undermining E2EE because of political pressure, mainly. Would have to think this through, make a draft, then collect feedback here, yadda yadda.^^

But yes, something like that – is that somewhere on xmpp.org, too?

not exactly, but a search finds https://xmpp.org/2013/11/xmpp-ubiquitous-encryption-a-manifesto/

Then a good approach might be for me to read the entire manifesto and see whether I can update it to include modern E2EE and pour it into XEP form?

*that* manifesto was really just about mandatory TLS on the federated network right?

moparisthebest, yes

from around the time of the Snowden stuff

as was the RFC linked

exactly. hence adding modern E2EE stuff.

Yup. And we now have to expect crypto wars… 2? 3? 4?^^

I thought you were proposing some additional procedures for vetting new protocols coming in

ie, rejecting ones that harm e2e or something, unsure, sounds annoying to word correctly

That TLS manifesto was aimed at the wider community, not the XSF, which isn't in charge of such policy decisions anyway.

Ah, alrighty. I guess that'll make things easier, as we can just tackle the current problem of undermining/banning E2EE.

Yep sounds like a good idea

Cool. If I had my KanBan thing already deployed, I'd add it for after building the woofer and deploying my KanBan thing and the XMPP service. ^^

So I'll just make a physical note for it and hope it don't get lost :D

> moparisthebest: > 2022-05-05 04:03 (CDT) > I don't care if $insert-political-compass-coordinates wrote the spec/software, if it's helpful to me, I'll use it We agree on something for a change.

Maybe alongside the CoC we should also have something like this: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8890 "XMPP is for End Users" :)

Even though of course it would only speak in the XSF's name

That reminds me someday poezio should remember /ignore'd participants

And for the record... I like pep. (from the posts and activity I've seen).

Maybe we should just link those two RFCs and say "us too" ?

> phryk: > 2022-05-05 03:57 (CDT) > The world is where we live, tho. Can we agree that assuming the two (XSF and world politics) don't have any contact points is foolhardy? This begets tribalism, not community. If you only want to interact with people who share **your** world view and values. In essence, exclusionary. But I know no one cares about this outsider's opinion.

I don't think anyone said that

And everyone likes pep. , How could you not? :)

> implying

Might as well post a statement of what the XSF believes so people know what they're walking into if you go thid route. Either all are welcome or not. ✏

Might as well post a statement of what the XSF believes so people know what they're walking into if you go this route. Either all are welcome or not. ✏

crypt: this is what the XSF believes https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation/

The thread that brings all together should be the love for XMPP.

> moparisthebest: > 2022-05-05 06:43 (CDT) > crypt: this is what the XSF believes https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation/ Perfectly acceptable and shouldn't be changed.