XSF Discussion - 2022-05-05


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  109. wgreenhouse crypt: there was an Incident about a year ago that resulted in s.j.n going offline at a time. so I think, seriously, "run your own" is not a bad suggestion--that way you can evaluate your own willingness to deal with abuse reports and legal threats, which may vary from others'
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  111. wgreenhouse crypt: there was an Incident about a year ago that resulted in s.j.n going offline for a time. so I think, seriously, "run your own" is not a bad suggestion--that way you can evaluate your own willingness to deal with abuse reports and legal threats, which may vary from others'
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  123. jcbrand Kev: could you explain a bit how in-protocol curating would work?
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  125. wgreenhouse an XMPP server could have a "referral service" that users could run disco#items against to get a listing. just like listing a conference server's own rooms, except potentially they'd be in many locations
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  131. crypt wgreenhouse: I appreciate your comment and suggestion. But my beef with "out of scope" is what I said earlier: > Not everything has to be family friendly (or politically correct). Not everything that's controversial or edgy should be reported. I agree with others that this subject has run its course in this room.
  132. crypt * reported (and delisted)
  133. wgreenhouse crypt: fair enough. I wasn't sure if you were aware of the context that s.j.n actually went down for a time over a dispute about its moderation
  134. crypt > wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:00 (CDT) > crypt: fair enough. I wasn't sure if you were aware of the context that s.j.n actually went down for a time over a dispute about its moderation Not aware
  135. wgreenhouse yeah.
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  138. crypt **Quick sincerity check:** if I or someone else made an alternative room directory, would the XSF/xmpp.org list it under "getting started"? What would be the criteria for it to allowed?
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  140. crypt **Quick sincerity check:** if I or someone else made an alternative room directory, would the XSF/xmpp.org list it under "getting started"? What would be the criteria for it to be allowed?
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  143. wgreenhouse crypt: here is how s.j.n got added: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/622
  144. wgreenhouse not that long ago in the grand scheme
  145. wgreenhouse now at least we're on topic as you're asking "how do I suggest changes to the xsf website"
  146. wgreenhouse and I think the answer is "make a PR to add a useful community resource"
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  148. wgreenhouse there are already e.g. multiple server directories included
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  152. crypt wgreenhouse: One possible mistake I made was thinking search.jabber.network was also run by the XSF, but the whois is private. Don't know.
  153. wgreenhouse crypt: yeah, s.j.n is a one-person volunteer project; I believe the volunteer is a sometime _participant_ in the xsf, but it is not endorsed or managed in any way by xsf. just a community resource listed there, like the selection of server listings compiled by others.
  154. wgreenhouse https://search.jabber.network/legal has all the info about s.j.n's owner
  155. crypt > wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:25 (CDT) > crypt: yeah, s.j.n is a one-person volunteer project; I believe the volunteer is a sometime _participant_ in the xsf, but it is not endorsed or managed in any way by xsf. just a community resource listed there, like the selection of server listings compiled by others. This is a sane conversation. Thank you for providing context.
  156. crypt This room can get a bit toxic if you have different opinions or ideas.
  157. crypt > wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:26 (CDT) > https://search.jabber.network/legal has all the info about s.j.n's owner This is great. I might reach out to Jonas this way.
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  159. Daniel Fwiw I for example am glad that s.j.n has strong content moderation polices. Or else I wouldn't be able to include it in Conversations
  160. Daniel Defending other people's so called free speech is fine as long as it's not your door that's gets kicked in by the police.
  161. crypt > Daniel: > 2022-05-04 11:31 (CDT) > Fwiw I for example am glad that s.j.n has strong content moderation polices. Or else I wouldn't be able to include it in Conversations That tells me any alternative that doesn't follow the exact same policy would be excluded. So much for user choice. Could or can a user add a room directory of their choice in Conversations?
  162. crypt If no, why not?
  163. Daniel From Conversations in particular? Yes absolutely. But I wouldn't call it 'excluded'. Just not included
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  166. crypt > Daniel: > 2022-05-04 11:35 (CDT) > From Conversations in particular? Yes absolutely. But I wouldn't call it 'excluded'. Just not included Not sure I follow
  167. wgreenhouse Conversations can list s.j.n (default) or the MUC service of its own xmpp server (by toggling a setting--but then you only get results local to that server). s.j.n defines an API some other service could similarly use. some fork of Conversations could point to a different search domain.
  168. crypt A fork is partial choice. But to enable/add an alternative to your client shouldn't require permission from the dev (his moral point of view).
  169. wgreenhouse crypt: point me to a matrix client that can use a room directory other than the one hosted by matrix.org :D
  170. wgreenhouse that situation is actually a great deal worse
  171. wgreenhouse the equivalent to the local search option doesn't exist
  172. crypt wgreenhouse: don't change the subject (but I do have an answer) 😎
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  174. wgreenhouse crypt: ok. settings have a cost, though. if you read through Conversations's issues and PRs, most of them are literally Daniel rejecting a setting. because tech debt and making UI more confusing. most of the many Conversations forks are to add back a setting Conversations rejected.
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  177. wgreenhouse other clients (Gajim for example) have never seen any configuration option they thought was a bad idea.
  178. crypt > wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:44 (CDT) > crypt: ok. settings have a cost, though. if you read through Conversations's issues and PRs, most of them are literally Daniel rejecting a setting. because tech debt and making UI more confusing. > most of the many Conversations forks are to add back a setting Conversations rejected. It should be as easy as adding a link to that room directory. Out of his control or concern.
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  180. wgreenhouse crypt: that's adding a setting, however. currently it's a 2-way toggle; s.j.n or your own server's MUC listing. you want to add a third, and a fillable
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  184. crypt > wgreenhouse: > 2022-05-04 11:46 (CDT) > crypt: that's adding a setting, however. currently it's a 2-way toggle; s.j.n or your own server's MUC listing. you want to add a third, and a fillable Yup. Perfect.
  185. wgreenhouse ok. write the PR. high probability of reject simply because it adds a setting :)
  186. wgreenhouse then you've got your Conversations fork.
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  188. wgreenhouse anyway, this is again straying off the topic. conversations is also not controlled or managed by xsf
  189. crypt But it's a revealing exercise on freedom and censorship
  190. crypt Have a goodnight everyone!
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  195. Daniel You can also probably try to buy s.j.n for $44b in order to change the rules.
  196. Daniel Only to ultimately discover that the rules are there for a reason
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  199. crypt > Daniel: > 2022-05-05 12:00 (CDT) > Only to ultimately discover that the rules are there for a reason YouTube's censorship crew would agree.
  200. crypt Probaby Twitter and Facebook, too.
  201. crypt Probably Twitter and Facebook, too.
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  203. Daniel Exactly
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  205. crypt > Daniel: > 2022-05-05 12:04 (CDT) > Exactly Glad you enjoy that world. You can keep it.
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  207. Menel Can you try to inform yourself to German law, or shut up really! And really setup your own world with your views and don't try to force others to make it against their beliefs
  208. Menel Not posting something on their own website is not censorship
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  210. Menel You can use this decentralized network and you'll *not* be censored. Only not everyone might want to see everything. And thats ok
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  216. crypt *You can eat bread or bread. Which will it be?*
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  222. Menel I don't know your goal. sjn will not change its tos because of text here... And the xsf will not create its own service.. They are for the technical standards of the protocol
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  307. mathieui (And also further inquiries or demands may be seen as an additional hassle to running the service, which may lead to it shutting down)
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  358. goffi hi jonas’, a friendly reminder about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/pubsub-public-subscriptions.html. Thanks!
  359. jonas’ yes. I need to rework my editor schedule. Thanks for bumping.
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  414. Guus are there known issues with Adium's implementation of BOSH?
  415. Guus specifically 1.5.10.4?
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  515. jcbrand crypt: I wouldn't have a problem with making the search service configurable in Converse. I'm sympathetic to free speech concerns and don't like the IMO extreme censorship that's been on social media the last few years. That said, it's a complex topic and I also understand the viewpoint of people who want to filter out certain content. As a personal example, I'd rather my child is not too easily exposed to a lot of stuff online.
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  577. Zash jcbrand, editor-ial: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0425.html stuck in LC?
  578. Zash jonas’, editor-ial: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0425.html stuck in LC? (sorry jc, wrong tab)
  579. jonas’ and here I was hoping it wouldn't concern me
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  581. Zash Well come to think of it, concerns jcbrand too
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  583. Zash https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2022-01-05?p=h#2022-01-05-fa0ce69fd8b2d0be
  584. Zash Message referencing eh
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  590. moparisthebest > are there known issues with Adium's implementation of BOSH? Guus: libpurple clients are still vulnerable to trivial undetectable-by-the-user mitm
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  594. jcbrand I do one day want to address the concerns, but it's not high on my list of priorities ATM
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  599. Guus moparisthebest: thanks, but I was after functional issues. I've got one person that seems to have an issue that any new outbound stanza is delayed until the longpoll of the preexisting HTTP request is over.
  600. Guus (which introduces weird delays)
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  623. *IM* moparisthebest: libpurple clients are still vulnerable to trivial undetectable-by-the-user mitm Do you have a link?
  624. moparisthebest *IM*, https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2022-February/038759.html
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  629. *IM* Thanks!
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  636. Zash moparisthebest, https://keep.imfreedom.org/pidgin/pidgin/rev/d25fecfb02f9
  637. *IM* Isn't libpurple used by Matrix too?
  638. moparisthebest Zash, awesome! I assumed they'd forgotten about it :D Now we just need that CVE opened up so all the distros can update
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  697. Menel *IM*: that may or may not be the case, but this one is about DNS records for xmpp. So they are not vulnerable, even if they use it
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  708. MattJ Board?
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  710. MattJ I have stuff to discuss that has been waiting a while, so I'll send out an email if there's to be no meeting again
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  718. pep. If I wanted to report something about the CoC (I am not), where would I do this btw? There doesn't seem to be anything mentioned in the room description nor topic, nothing on the website either
  719. pep. If I wanted to report something about the CoC (I don't), where would I do this btw? There doesn't seem to be anything mentioned in the room description nor topic, nothing on the website either
  720. pep. Oh there is one page apparently mentioned the CoC.. where is it linked
  721. pep. Oh there is one page apparently mentioned the CoC.. where is it linked from..
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  727. pep. `content/community/operators-rules.md` where am I supposed to find this page? https://xmpp.org/community/operators-rules{,/,.html} yield 404
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  731. Zash pep., https://xmpp.org/community/channels/operators/
  732. Zash based on the url property in the header
  733. pep. Ah right..
  734. pep. But this still isn't linked from anywhere right?
  735. pep. At least on the website
  736. Zash `ack` finds https://xmpp.org/2021/07/the-xmpp-newsletter-june-2021/
  737. pep. It's in the topic on operators, that's good. I do think it should also be placed here, well the CoC, not especially this page
  738. restive_monk has joined
  739. pep. All concerned channels really
  740. pep. I might attempt a PR to move the CoC bits from the operators' page to one level higher (/community/)
  741. Zash sounds sensible
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  748. pep. TIL joinjabber.org is appearing on xmpp.org
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  772. moparisthebest If you see someone using "jabber" how can you tell if they got a proper trademark license from the XSF for it?
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  774. Link Mauve They don’t need it AIUI.
  775. Link Mauve Err, using in which sense?
  776. Link Mauve In a product name there is the trademark page which lists them IIRC.
  777. Link Mauve moparisthebest, https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/ should explain things a bit.
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  780. moparisthebest So "report it to the board" ?
  781. moparisthebest Ok board what about https://www.sitejabber.com/
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  784. MattJ IANAL but I don't see any issue with that
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  786. moparisthebest "leaving reviews and responding to them" is basically chat no?
  787. MattJ I am not a judge, either 🙂
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  789. moparisthebest I just know I had some brand confusion when it popped up when I was trying to buy some tires :)
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  801. pep. « The XSF wouldn’t be possible without the support of our sponsors. If your company is interested in sponsoring the XSF, we’d love to talk. » What is this doing on the community page?
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  808. Kev Soliciting sponsors, by the look of it.
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  813. jcbrand MattJ: I mentioned here a while back that the current meeting time is difficult for me to make. I should probably write an email to the board
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  828. MattJ jcbrand: I gather it's less than ideal for everyone (including me). Worth trying again to find a better time, but last time we tried this was the least-worst
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  831. pep. Kev, thanks I can read
  832. mathieui pep.: I would imagine gathering sponsors is part of a community effort
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  835. pep. That's already more of an answer :)
  836. pep. well we're definitely not missing links to the sponsors page on the website..
  837. mathieui And companies using XMPP are part of the community, so it makes sense to remind them that sponsors are appreciated
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  852. pep. Regarding my first question today, I'm still wondering where to get support when somebody is overstepping or violating the CoC, if I had to.
  853. pep. Is it still board?
  854. moparisthebest looks like the moderators of the channel first
  855. Zash the "Conduct team"
  856. Kev The CoC says Board and the Conduct team.
  857. pep. « The final decision on such exclusions is made by the Board, who may from time to time appoint a Work Team, called the Conduct Team, to act on their behalf. If the Work Team has not been appointed, the Conduct Team is the Board. There are exceptions to this - in particular any right of elected members of the Foundation under the Bylaws cannot be curtailed by the Board, though the Board (or any other any member) could start the process to eject a member. This means that members are trusted by the other members to a higher degree than other participants; something that should be considered during elections. »
  858. pep. Is the Conduct team a thing already
  859. wgreenhouse has joined
  860. Kev It's currently just Board, unless I missed it.
  861. pep. Always have a hard time finding teams on the website
  862. mathieui I don’t think we have a conduct team yet, but contacting board or one or several individuals should achieve the same purpose
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  865. pep. https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/
  866. moparisthebest it says things like "as soon as moderators are made aware..." so you should contact channel moderators first at least
  867. moparisthebest conduct team / board are last resorts
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  870. Kev Which it - the CoC or the operators page?
  871. pep. Sure, well that's fine if moderators are not in
  872. pep. That's the operators' page
  873. pep. I'm rewriting it slightly
  874. pep. And moving it
  875. Kev AFAICS, the CoC trumps the operators page.
  876. Kev Or should.
  877. Kev So I think a rework of that page is deserved, thanks pep.
  878. pep. Should, probably, but I do read it's a bit thick to read
  879. pep. Should, probably, but I do think it's a bit thick to read
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  930. pep. So when trying to summarize the CoC in a short list, I actually don't manage to come up with more then: - DO: Be welcoming and inclusive. Make the XSF a place where people are happy and comfortable. - DONT: Discriminate based on culture, religion, size and shape, sex, experience or ability.
  931. bung has left
  932. pep. I do feel like I'm missing things (not understanding things) in the text
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  934. pep. https://gitweb.torproject.org/community/policies.git/plain/code_of_conduct.txt something like this with a shortlist of DOs and DONTs included in the document is quite helpful
  935. Kev I do feel the personal attacks / ad hominem bit is pretty important (and we had a clear breach of that here the other day, although I didn't bother reporting it as Board members were here at the time too).
  936. pep. I also wonder why there had to be XSF-made document for this also. Stuff like Tor's are actually great
  937. pep. There was certainly personal attacks the other day, but to be fair there was stuff to report from both sides
  938. moparisthebest if a CoC can't be summarized as "be nice to each other" it's a bad CoC
  939. pep. ("We vote with our feet and code around here, we don't sit around whining wishing someone else would do something for us" definitely falls into "Don't discriminate based on [..] experience or ability" to me)
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  941. moparisthebest I disagree, but also, put it in context
  942. pep. Definitely, that's why I reacted when you said it :)
  943. moparisthebest obvious troll complaining in the wrong channel after being told nicely over and over, meh
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  945. moparisthebest "voting with your feet" doesn't require experience or ability
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  948. pep. I'm going to try to put up something, but I guess the best would have to have this shortlist in the spec itself
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  953. pep. Maybe there shouldn't be a /community/code-of-conduct and directly redirect to the spec, but then it needs to be clear, not like it is now
  954. Daniel I disagree with making trolls feel welcome. That's a classic paradox of tolerance
  955. moparisthebest I should have just ignored him and not trolled back though
  956. pep. From what I saw in xsf@, I wasn't able to say. I do agree I couldn't care less for fascists getting their stuff unlisted, but that's not reason to get worked up in here
  957. pep. From what I saw in xsf@, I wasn't able to say. I do agree I couldn't care less for fascists getting their stuff unlisted, but that's no reason to get worked up in here
  958. pep. (let's not be afraid to use words :))
  959. pep. (It's not just "trolls")
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  970. moparisthebest I don't want to go assuming what he wanted listed, he could just be a horse porn connoisseur
  971. moparisthebest he was a troll because it was unrelated to this room and wouldn't stop despite being told nicely
  972. Ge0rG moparisthebest [20:55]: > if a CoC can't be summarized as "be nice to each other" it's a bad CoC Can't we just have that sentence as the CoC then? But then it's obvious common sense anyway, isn't it?
  973. pep. This is a free USican discrimination, but I love how you spell connoisseur :D
  974. Daniel It's not even clear they even wanted to create a room at all
  975. pep. Ge0rG, it means nothing though
  976. jcbrand > ("We vote with our feet and code around here, we don't sit around whining wishing someone else would do something for us" definitely falls into "Don't discriminate based on [..] experience or ability" to me) This kind of language policing highlights pretty well my reservations with CoCs.
  977. moparisthebest pep., if you think I know how to spell connoisseur and didn't just use ddg and copy+paste it you are mistaken :D
  978. pep. Tbh it's like saying we're inclusive in a document, yay we have the keyword, now what does that mean (not saying this in relation to the XSF's, just in general)
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  980. Ge0rG The more explicit the rules are worded, the easier it is to violate the spirit of the rules while following the word
  981. jcbrand The common rebuttal is "we won't get literal and maintain the spirit" but I don't buuy it
  982. jcbrand The common rebuttal is "we won't get literal and maintain the spirit" but I don't buy it
  983. moparisthebest what Ge0rG just said is exactly my sentiment
  984. pep. moparisthebest, yeah no it's correct in english I think, and it certainly comes from french, but in french it's spelled « connaisseur » :P
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  986. pep. Well the idea is to agree on common grounds. That's the hardest part. It's not because there is a document that the magic is done anyway
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  996. pep. That's a cultural change
  997. jcbrand pep. Can you break down the word? I'm guessing it's some kind of compound noun or perhaps the doer of something. Like "taster" or "enjoyer"
  998. moparisthebest well we can all agree we should be nice to each other I suppose
  999. jcbrand You weren't all that nice earlier today TBH
  1000. jcbrand You in the plural, not singling out one person
  1001. Ge0rG If you have very loose wording, you'll get trolls complaining about arbitrary treatment. If you have specific wording, you'll get trolls complaining about not following the word of the rule
  1002. pep. jcbrand, « connaître » is « to know », and -sseur is for the person who [..]
  1003. jcbrand ah, so knower
  1004. jcbrand Thanks
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  1006. Daniel Aren't code of conducts a thing invented by the CIA to waste everyone's time?
  1007. pep. Ge0rG, also why this is literally in Tor's CoC: DON'T: Hunt for ways to uphold the letter of this code while violating its spirit.
  1008. moparisthebest TIL, neat, I also thought it was more like "enjoyer"
  1009. pep. Daniel, hah. You wish
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  1012. jcbrand > Aren't code of conducts a thing invented by the CIA to waste everyone's time? Not the CIA, but moral busybodies
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  1014. pep. I guess you're referring to the saboteur's kit
  1015. pep. But anyway, no. This is solely a set of common rules. Because no, rules aren't "obvious", "common sense" isn't actually common, it's different in every culture and sub-culture
  1016. pep. So having a set of guidelines to go by is useful
  1017. Ge0rG All I know is that this infighting of progressive groups already was well reflected in that 1979 comedy that must not be shown in Germany on Easter Friday
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  1019. pep. Surely it's the fault of the progressives :)
  1020. pep. They're trying to bring the world down
  1021. jcbrand The road to hell is paved with good intentions
  1022. Zash Recent events makes me wonder if the inverse is true
  1023. pep. Sure, and this is a collective effort
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  1025. jcbrand Concerning CoC, I think "don't harass people" is a rule most reasonable people can get behind and which is perhaps not so easy to apply overeagerly
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  1027. pep. jcbrand, yeah but it's sometimes helpful to know who's harassing who exactly
  1028. jcbrand Well, if it's not clear, then I'd do what you do with kids. You tell them both to stop and to leave one another alone
  1029. jcbrand Very often it isn't completely perpetrator vs victim
  1030. jcbrand Very often both people had a role in escalating the situation
  1031. pep. Sometimes one says something and that'll trigger a reaction on the other side because it was actually discriminatory and the first one didn't know, and the other one reacted as badly and they're the only ones to get blamed and no one reflects on this and life goes on
  1032. jcbrand Getting triggered and lashing out at people is IMO not ok
  1033. pep. I do agree
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  1035. jcbrand Not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not IMO some kind of thing that should be excused
  1036. pep. And in the case I mention (which happens more often that one would think), it's useful to be able to isolate what triggered all this
  1037. msavoritias Cant we get a template and adapt it pep. ? I know of this template for example or we can get something else: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/
  1038. pep. msavoritias, well there's already https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html so I'm not sure what to do
  1039. jcbrand The person who wrote that calls herself "Big-time open source troublemaker and sworn enemy of the status quo."
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  1041. pep. heh, and I think it's nice
  1042. pep. Death to the status quo
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  1045. moparisthebest I wouldn't want anyone who's goal was to be a troublemaker in my group :P
  1046. jcbrand Me neither
  1047. pep. The thing is when you're surrounded with people who think the same, you got to make lots of noise to be able to actually be heared
  1048. jcbrand The empty pots make the loudest noise
  1049. pep. The thing is when you're surrounded with people who think the same, you got to make lots of noise to be able to actually be heard
  1050. MattJ ???
  1051. pep. Yeah, ?!
  1052. jcbrand It's a saying, I don't know if it's in English
  1053. jcbrand But it's in other languages
  1054. MattJ This conversation is just getting defocused, I feel
  1055. pep. MattJ, I'm not sure. Well it's obviously not on presenting the CoC on the website anymore
  1056. MattJ The CoC has not had final approval yet (hence the "experimental" tag), I *think* there are still some pending edits, but I'd have to check
  1057. pep. I'm still surprised though one has to take a stance for a CoC..
  1058. Daniel > This conversation is just getting defocused, I feel That's why the CIA invented them. Duh
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  1060. pep. :D
  1061. pep. jcbrand, basically, we're not a homegenous group, we have different interests (culture, religion, race, sex, gender, whether we are a developer, a user, whether we work in a company, for money, or not, etc.) and they're getting onto each other, and the language we speak, behaviour we have, all of it reflects this. So having common rules that we agree on is good I think
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  1064. moparisthebest be nice, talk about xmpp
  1065. pep. I am!
  1066. Zash can we have a Summit yet? to remind us that there are people attached to these nicknames? 🙂
  1067. MattJ +1
  1068. Ge0rG Zash: but those people are almost exclusively privileged white men
  1069. pep. That is true
  1070. pep. :P
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  1072. pep. Maybe the XSF wants to actively encourage other people to join? And/or help them join even
  1073. Ge0rG Just enlist them without their knowledge
  1074. pep. Right, and check the greenbox
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  1078. moparisthebest I think a recent dilbert cartoon covered this scenario
  1079. moparisthebest as far as I'm concerned the XSF encourages everyone who wants to to join, and doesn't know anything about them other then their nicknames, and that's how it should be
  1080. Kev has left
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  1082. moparisthebest unfortunately the membership process requires divulging those, but you can participate quite a bit without doing that
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  1085. jcbrand In lieu (I can speak French too 😉 ) of a summit, we could also just have sprints again
  1086. bung has joined
  1087. moparisthebest can't have summits anymore, that certainly excludes people based on their ability to travel >:)
  1088. paul has joined
  1089. pep. jcbrand, actually let me edit what I said above. We are not homogenous, but we are not really diverse either (a majority being white males employed in tech), so having these rules also allow us to encourage people not like us to join. Of course just having this document isn't enough, we also need to work on it
  1090. jcbrand moparisthebest: Ah yes, travelist
  1091. pep. "as far as I'm concerned the XSF encourages everyone who wants to to join" how?
  1092. Daniel > can't have summits anymore, that certainly excludes people based on their ability to travel >:) I know this is a joke. But this is actually a real problem
  1093. pep. Just saying it won't make people come magically
  1094. Daniel With the 'official' summit hotel being really expensive and so on
  1095. jcbrand pep. Don't rules do the opposite? Instead of encouraging people not like us, they encourage other people to be like us.
  1096. pep. jcbrand, I depends on the rules?
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  1098. pep. Daniel, yeah and being in belgium also, in europe.
  1099. jcbrand This seems like unnecessary hand-wringing to me. It's before a very large free conference and AFAICT most active members are in the EU
  1100. jcbrand Also, people on other continents are free to organize their own events
  1101. jcbrand Coming from South Africa, I know a lot about what it's like to be isolated from events
  1102. Daniel If you don't have the resources to travel you don't have the resources to put on a conference
  1103. jcbrand That's not true
  1104. jcbrand I put on a sprint in South Africa and got funding from the Plone foundation
  1105. jcbrand And some US devs even flew to be there
  1106. pep. "most active member are in the EU" "people on other continents are free to organize their own events", this isn't exactly how I see "trying to be inclusive"
  1107. moparisthebest I'm not seriously suggesting we never have a summit for that reason, but it is *extremely hard* for me to attend
  1108. jcbrand Sure, but what should we do about that
  1109. jcbrand Sure, but what should we do about that?
  1110. jcbrand When I lived in SA it was also extremely hard for me to attend things
  1111. moparisthebest keep doing most work in XMPP and carry on
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  1113. moparisthebest my only point is that you can't avoid all discrimination on everything no matter what you do
  1114. pep. I don't know if Debian as a whole is a good example, but they try to host their conference in a different place every time and I think that's a great first step
  1115. Kev Should we not hold summits because they're hard for some people to attend? I don't think so. Should we acknowledge that summits are not terribly inclusive to some people? I think so.
  1116. pep. Kev, acknowledging would definitely be the greatest first start :)
  1117. jcbrand Yes, where would we be without feeling guilty about things
  1118. Zash Hasn't the XSF helped with travel before?
  1119. Kev Zash: Yes, but its ability to do so is very limited.
  1120. Kev It's been (AFAICR) always people already in the community that it wanted to have there.
  1121. moparisthebest I'd just rather we stop pretending you can never "discriminate based on ability" or whatever those words were
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  1123. pep. moparisthebest, as with everything it's not an absolute but a goal
  1124. moparisthebest if it's in the CoC as a rule it's an absolute
  1125. moparisthebest if it's a goal "be nice" covers it
  1126. Zash we don't deal in absolutes here!
  1127. moparisthebest wait this isn't the Sith counsel ? oh no...
  1128. Guus > Hasn't the XSF helped with travel before? For gsoc students, we did.
  1129. Guus > With the 'official' summit hotel being really expensive and so on Laziness on my part.
  1130. jcbrand One way to help the geographically challenged, could be to have breakout conferences at the same time
  1131. pep. moparisthebest, should I be banned because I discriminated againt my own class? :)
  1132. jcbrand I.e. people in the US can meet at the same time and connect via video and XMPP
  1133. jcbrand Or in India or whereever
  1134. pep. I think it'd be hard, (timezones), but it would be good to try
  1135. jcbrand ah yes, timezones
  1136. Guus > I.e. people in the US can meet at the same time and connect via video and XMPP We used to have two summits per year, geographically separated.
  1137. pep. jcbrand, yeah, that little detail :p
  1138. moparisthebest US is a big place, it's about the same level of difficulty for me to travel to san francisco as belgium
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  1140. jcbrand > We used to have two summits per year, geographically separated. I"m guessing the US summit doesn't happen anymore due to lack of attendees?
  1141. jcbrand moparisthebest: I remember a pep talk about voting with feet and not whining or something
  1142. moparisthebest sorry I started this, there's nothing wrong with the summit, and no one should feel bad about it, I was just trying to make a point about CoCs :P
  1143. Zash Board already struggles with the timezone problem
  1144. Guus > I"m guessing the US summit doesn't happen anymore due to lack of attendees? I think so. Most people in here are from the EU continent, I think?
  1145. moparisthebest I think we could all easily agree to abolish timezones :)
  1146. MattJ jcbrand, the last one I attended in the US was just a handful of people, and half of those were working for &yet who (at the time) were working a lot with XMPP
  1147. pep. The XSF doesn'T actually have to organise evernts on all continents if there isn't demand for it, but it can propose to help/take over organizing if there is
  1148. pep. The XSF doesn'T actually have to organise events on all continents if there isn't demand for it, but it can propose to help/take over organizing if there is
  1149. Guus > I think we could all easily agree to abolish timezones :) We can't even get you guys to abandon MM/DD/YY!
  1150. jcbrand lol
  1151. Zash Did we even agree to abolish DST?
  1152. pep. Zash, wasn't that rolled back?
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  1154. Guus > The XSF doesn'T actually have to organise events on all continents if there isn't demand for it, but it can propose to help/take over organizing if there is Isn't that basically the sprint things? I quite liked that.
  1155. jcbrand I'm trying to organize an OMEMO sprint
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  1157. pep. « jcbrand> pep. Don't rules do the opposite? Instead of encouraging people not like us, they encourage other people to be like us. » fwiw this is also a concern of mine. The text can say something and we can aply it some other way, or the text can say what we expect it to say (inclusivity and all) and we can not apply it this way. Or the text can say something and we can apply it correctly but not doing anything for the excluded groups..
  1158. jcbrand pep. I think the question is also are certain groups actively excluded, or are they simply disinterested?
  1159. msavoritias > pep. wrote: > jcbrand, actually let me edit what I said above. We are not homogenous, but we are not really diverse either (a majority being white males employed in tech), so having these rules also allow us to encourage people not like us to join. Of course just having this document isn't enough, we also need to work on it I agree completely how can we encourage people to join that are *different* than us if we dont make them feel safe
  1160. jcbrand Or perhaps not able to (e.g. due to geography)
  1161. pep. jcbrand, talking only about online activity, thinking that these groups aren't (not just marginaly) among us "because they're not interested" would be wrong IMO. That's pushing the ball to them saying "well it's your fault for not coming to us" when we might not have been doing anything to encourage them, or we've been doing it but badly
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  1163. jcbrand I don't think it's helpful to talk about who's "fault" it is.
  1164. pep. I'm not looking to blame, just trying to point at things to improve
  1165. pep. Saying "white males" isn't to blame white males to be white males IMO
  1166. pep. That's useless
  1167. msavoritias Yeap agreed. Some groups need to be encouraged and/or helped to contribute
  1168. jcbrand Sounds paternalistic to me
  1169. moparisthebest can anyone give a concrete example of any person/group that should "come to us" that is not for any reason ?
  1170. moparisthebest I don't even like that language, why should anyone "come to us" in the first place? only if they feel like it I suppose
  1171. pep. I'm not talking about going fishing either, fwiw
  1172. msavoritias moparisthebest: thats the thing though. If they: Dont feel safe Dont have the resources Need guidance We are not clear Or more cases even. Its not always about of they feel like its also if they can
  1173. msavoritias Not everybody in life is want/dont want
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  1182. moparisthebest do we have any concrete examples of any of those things happening?
  1183. moparisthebest if they are we should 100% fix them, it's hard to deal in conjecture though
  1184. jcbrand For me the whole way of phrasing things in terms of "feeling safe" is problematic. It's incredibly subjective. Some people how have anxiety disorders will never feel safe, no matter what we do
  1185. jcbrand For me the whole way of phrasing things in terms of "feeling safe" is problematic. It's incredibly subjective. Some people who have anxiety disorders will never feel safe, no matter what we do
  1186. msavoritias moparisthebest: You mean not have the resources? Look at income levels in places Safety? Read some articles on discrimination/harrasment Likewise for the rest of the problems Im not saying these are happening in xsf. I am saying these are happeninp in general
  1187. pep. jcbrand, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying, should we
  1188. msavoritias So people need encouragement because they have been burned before
  1189. msavoritias One step to that is the COC
  1190. moparisthebest I mean I guess I have concrete examples of "not feeling safe", back in the day some forums were well-known for if anyone new posted anything a ton of people would reply with "haha noob", but we don't do that here
  1191. jcbrand pep. I think making an effort to be friendly and reasonable is enough, and everyone here and in the XSF already do that
  1192. moparisthebest msavoritias, right, but are any applicable to the XSF ? not that I'm aware of
  1193. msavoritias moparisthebest: We dont. I agree. But people dont know that. So lets roght it in the COC. We dont descriminate based on experience
  1194. jcbrand > We dont descriminate based on experience What does that mean?
  1195. moparisthebest but if it just said "Be kind to each other" wouldn't that tell them that and more ?
  1196. pep. jcbrand: I kinda disagree, judging by the last few days (but not just). There is much that could be improved still. Not saying it's not allowed to slip for sure, I also do often, but there is work being done on this I feel
  1197. jcbrand You mean don't call people "noob"?
  1198. jcbrand It's already covered under "be nice"
  1199. msavoritias > moparisthebest wrote: > msavoritias, right, but are any applicable to the XSF ? not that I'm aware of I said that they are not. But thiy are happening elsewhere. And people are understandably reluctant because they have been burned before
  1200. emus > Zash escribió: > can we have a Summit yet? to remind us that there are people attached to these nicknames? 🙂 please
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  1202. msavoritias > moparisthebest wrote: > but if it just said "Be kind to each other" wouldn't that tell them that and more ? Would it? For you maybe. For me not. jcbrand
  1203. msavoritias Every person is different as pep. Said
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  1205. msavoritias > jcbrand wrote: > You mean don't call people "noob"? I meant what moparisthebest wrote about tne forums
  1206. jcbrand It already doesn't happen here though.
  1207. moparisthebest msavoritias, I appreciate that, so what would you like it to say? I just think we need some concrete examples
  1208. msavoritias > jcbrand wrote: > It already doesn't happen here though. I know and i agree with you. People not in the community dont though. So lets tell them :)
  1209. moparisthebest a list of all the bad things we know about that we don't do would be a very long list
  1210. jcbrand Yeah, I'm just not in love with long lists of rules
  1211. pep. One example of not discriminating based on experience or skill could be lowering the amount of "PR welcome" answers
  1212. Zash what is the alternative to that?
  1213. pep. Without any explanation of how to do so, or having asked before if the person knew how to
  1214. moparisthebest what is the alternative answer if 1) you don't want to do it 2) you don't know of others that want to do it
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  1216. jcbrand pep. Do you have time to give in-depth explanations and/or to debug and fix the problems of every person who asks you for help with XMPP?
  1217. pep. I'm not saying we have to be the help desk of the internet, right. But there are things we can do to help people feel welcome
  1218. jcbrand Or to implement every requested feature?
  1219. moparisthebest in my opinion, anyone who wants to can learn to code and make a PR, so that wouldn't ever be discriminatory
  1220. msavoritias I think correcting qnd approving: ttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html Would be a good step moparisthebest
  1221. pep. jcbrand, of course not and that's not what I'm saying
  1222. Zash Searching the logs, "PRs welcome" seems to have been mostly aimed at Ge0rG
  1223. pep. Zash, well you get it, this kind of language in general
  1224. pep. That was just one example
  1225. pep. Ge0rG, PR welcome.
  1226. jcbrand PRs welcome is slightly better than "I'm not going to spend time on this"
  1227. moparisthebest msavoritias, it's already been accepted no?
  1228. pep. (that was free of charge)
  1229. msavoritias moparisthebest: its still experimental afaik
  1230. pep. jcbrand, no I think it's actually worse tbh
  1231. jcbrand why?
  1232. moparisthebest > Accept as Experimental after unanimous approval by Board of the ProtoXEP draft for discussion within the community.
  1233. Zash "I'm not going to spend time _reviewing or merging that PR_"
  1234. moparisthebest I can't say I looked up the lifecycle for procedural XEPs but I thought it was official
  1235. msavoritias Also wasnt it pep. That looked at the xsf site and didnt find it somewhere easily accesible there?
  1236. jcbrand Yeah, what Zash said is worse than "PRs welcome"
  1237. jcbrand PRs welcome actually means, I'll help you if you make an effort
  1238. jcbrand Of course, some people can't make a PR, I get that, but what am I supposed to do about that?
  1239. pep. Does it though. It's nice if that's what it means to your, and it would be better phrased the way you just did for sure :)
  1240. pep. to you*
  1241. pep. More explicit
  1242. jcbrand meh
  1243. pep. "PR welcome" to me is often derogatory, "pscht, do it yourself"
  1244. Zash pep., no, that's "patches welcome"
  1245. pep. Same thing
  1246. jcbrand Yeah, seems to me you choose to interpret it like that
  1247. pep. jcbrand, hence the more explicit version being better :)
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  1249. Zash https://xkcd.com/1860/ ?
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  1251. moparisthebest pep., would it be better to actually just say "do it your damn self if you want it done"
  1252. moparisthebest I agree "PR welcome" is basically that, but a more polite way
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  1255. pep. moparisthebest, that'd definitely make it more explicit :P
  1256. moparisthebest I tend to think the polite way is better...
  1257. jcbrand Seems to me like we're really splitting hairs here, but ok pep. I'll keep it in mind
  1258. pep. Not really better
  1259. moparisthebest what is a better way though?
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  1261. pep. The thing here is that, taking into account that it's harder online, how the person receiving the words understands it is important, I think, more than the intent (even though this is not to be dismissed at all)
  1262. pep. You can't say "I didn't mean it this way so go cry alone it's not my fault" really, can you
  1263. moparisthebest still waiting for the better wording for "PR Welcome"
  1264. pep. "It depends".
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  1266. pep. (No this is not an alternative wording for "PR welcome")
  1267. moparisthebest you are right that context matters, so in that case I have a suggestion for the CoC:
  1268. moparisthebest 1. Be kind to each other 2. Assume good intentions
  1269. msavoritias Personally its not just the PR welcome phrase. Its a larger thing. Its the whole mentality of some open source elitist communities of "If you dont know how to code or cant self host, you have no right to complain and i can do whatever i want." Which i realize it goes off topic so i will leave it here. Also a big topic either way.
  1270. moparisthebest that way when someone says "PR welcome" you should assume they mean "my apologies but I don't have the resources to put into this myself at the moment" and not "f*ck off and go away"
  1271. msavoritias moparisthebest: Thats already in the COC we linked though 🤔
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  1273. moparisthebest msavoritias, I mean, I do believe that, since anyone interested can easily learn to code and self host...
  1274. msavoritias Not true. But anyway....
  1275. jcbrand Even so, just because someone can't code doesn't mean I'm somehow obligated to spend my time and energy doing stuff for free for them
  1276. emus > pep. escribió: > "PR welcome" to me is often derogatory, "pscht, do it yourself" In unpaid open-source I think thats the idea?
  1277. moparisthebest I mean it's a balancing act, some suggestions are good, and some not
  1278. emus > pep. escribió: > "PR welcome" to me is often derogatory, "pscht, do it yourself" In unpaid open-source I thought thats the idea?
  1279. moparisthebest it's open source, that gives you more rights than *any* proprietary crap, and that's absolutely the best that can be done without enslaving devs
  1280. pep. « moparisthebest> msavoritias, I mean, I do believe that, since anyone interested can easily learn to code and self host... » as said the other day, I definitely disagree with this
  1281. pep. And I agree with msavoritias that it's not just about words but the idea behind it
  1282. moparisthebest who can use a computer that can't learn to code? any concrete examples?
  1283. Guus "PR welcome" to me is an affirmation that the change suggestion is at least valid.
  1284. jcbrand Guus yes
  1285. msavoritias Nobody said to enslave the devs or force them to work on stuff they dont want here. moparisthebest jcbrand
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  1289. pep. Guus, jcbrand, well as I said above, unfortunately often it matters less what you intend to say rather that how it's interpreted, and it's great if people can understand each other without having to get all worked up first
  1290. jcbrand I don't agree
  1291. jcbrand People can always find something to be offended about
  1292. pep. Well if you start this way, surely it's not gonna go well
  1293. msavoritias Yes. But you can make it easier. Words matter.
  1294. moparisthebest I'm not only this way about computers by the way, I think anyone who drives a car should be able to change a tire, and people should be able to do minor house repairs etc etc
  1295. moparisthebest too much of our lives are controlled by computers to *not* be able to program some
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  1298. Guus pep.: I don't think that I should be 100% responsible for "how people understand me" if the recipient is 100% willing to assume that I'm not trying to be derogatory.
  1299. pep. jcbrand, that's the thing about not assuming that everybody has the same culture as you, and accept that they might not understand phrases as you mean them "because that's what I generally mean with it"
  1300. papatutuwawa has joined
  1301. jcbrand That goes both ways pep.
  1302. Guus pep.: I don't think that I should be 100% responsible for "how people understand me" if the recipient is 100% willing to assume that I'm trying to be derogatory.
  1303. pep. Sure sure
  1304. crypt I'm sitting on the sidelines eating popcorn. This is too good.
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  1309. pep. But a person that is from a marginal group is already making some effort to be here (judging by how we currently are welcoming and inclusive), so I'm personally willing to do some more effort
  1310. djorz has left
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  1312. crypt Lefties talking about being inclusive while excluding those they dislike for political beliefs, color of their skin, or sex.
  1313. moparisthebest I think we are all willing to do anything reasonable
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  1315. jcbrand crypt I'm not aware of anyone being excluded here
  1316. crypt Fascists, white men, CIS gender
  1317. crypt The name calling is rich
  1318. crypt But go on..
  1319. moparisthebest crypt, how can we discriminate on political affiliation, gender, skin color etc if we have *no idea* what of those you have :P
  1320. moparisthebest anyway, troll is back :D
  1321. jcbrand lol
  1322. pep. Oh I am definitely going to exclude people based on them being fascists, for sure, if that's how you identity, crypt
  1323. bung has joined
  1324. pep. But your behaviour does say enough tbh
  1325. Guus crypt: you've lost me. I'm only talking about merge requests. Mostly performed by non-identifying anonymous handles/nicknames.
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  1329. Guus Also, I suspect that more than half of the "I welcome your PR" that I utter is aimed at people that I've been working with for years (and happily will work with for years).
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  1331. emus I think hes back to the CoC
  1332. Guus Heck, JC does it to me all the time 😂
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  1335. crypt > pep.: > 2022-05-05 03:49 (CDT) > Oh I am definitely going to exclude people based on them being fascists, for sure, if that's how you identity, crypt I'm a political, free thinker
  1336. crypt > pep.: > 2022-05-05 03:49 (CDT) > Oh I am definitely going to exclude people based on them being fascists, for sure, if that's how you identity, crypt I'm apolitical, free thinker
  1337. pep. lol. sure
  1338. adiaholic has left
  1339. pep. and I'm the pope
  1340. crypt See you're ready to label people
  1341. phryk Can I be inflammatory? :>
  1342. jcbrand Please don't
  1343. jcbrand Let's try to keep things to XMPP and not go into politics
  1344. pep. I guess we're going to avoid and we'll just stop engaging and a mod would take care of it?
  1345. pep. can we stop believing what we do isn't politics please
  1346. phryk jcbrand, I'll give it my best shot :)
  1347. crypt Can you point to an example of something I said that makes me a fascist? How do you define fascist?
  1348. jcbrand crypt stop please
  1349. moparisthebest it isn't politics, protocols and code can be used by anyone, just how it should be
  1350. Zash everything is politics, but it doesn't mean we have to drag world politics in here
  1351. crypt > Zash: > 2022-05-05 03:54 (CDT) > everything is politics, but it doesn't mean we have to drag world politics in here Agree 100%
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  1356. Guus ... tabs vs. spaces anyone?
  1357. phryk The world is where we live, tho. Can we agree that assuming the two (XSF and world politics) don't have any contact points is foolhardy?
  1358. Zash Guus, space tabs!
  1359. phryk Guus, unicode snowmen!
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  1361. moparisthebest Guus, non-breaking spaces ??
  1362. Guus Zash: sounds very retro 80's for some reason!
  1363. phryk Sounds like supercondensed weed brownies… :P
  1364. phryk Honestly tho, XMPP and the XSF mainly interest me for political reasons. Not party politics or anything but the wider definition and I like the values currently espoused by the wider community.
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  1366. moparisthebest I use XMPP and the XSF because it allows me to communicate with my family easier, I share views here with some people but not everyone and that's fine
  1367. moparisthebest I don't care if $insert-political-compass-coordinates wrote the spec/software, if it's helpful to me, I'll use it
  1368. phryk And with traditional politics moving to ban or undermine E2EE in the US and EU, I don't think strictly keeping politics out is even possible.
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  1370. phryk Incidentally, I would really like the XSF to publicly communicate they're going to keep E2EE and not compromise or drop XEPs to undermine it.
  1371. moparisthebest I mean, I guess some issues we tackle *can be political* if you want to put it that way
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  1374. crypt I don't care WHO you are (identity politics). I care about how you think and treat me and others. Politics and tech shouldn't mix if you want "community".
  1375. emus Maybe we should host the xep protocols via onion adresses too :-)
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  1378. phryk I think privacy issues are deeply political. Without privacy, a free society is inherently impossible.
  1379. phryk emus, a great idea, too. :)
  1380. emus really?
  1381. moparisthebest phryk, like https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7258 ?
  1382. phryk moparisthebest, yes.
  1383. moparisthebest I like that idea too
  1384. moparisthebest PR welcome ? :D
  1385. emus closes eyes and falls asleep ... unfortunaltly I failed on the right links. hope it redeploys correclty soon: https://xmpp.org/2022/05/the-xmpp-newsletter-april-2022/
  1386. phryk emus, yes if you think back to the first crypto wars, there was a lot going on with export restrictions, so it should be possible to keep visits to XSF standards out of public DNS requests.
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  1389. pep. At least I'm happy xmpp.org isn't hosted on cloudflare.. Unlike the IETF
  1390. pep. emus, thanks!
  1391. emus Indeed, well I think that would be nice to have somebackup places
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  1393. emus pep.: sure!
  1394. pep. And yeah I guess I'd be happy to have XEPs available on a .onion as well :)
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  1397. phryk moparisthebest, I'm not even an XSF member, also I think there should be a fair bit of cooperative authoring if the XSF is to make a statement like that.
  1398. moparisthebest phryk, you don't have to be (but you can be!), start it up anyway
  1399. emus wow, I cannot believe I was the first one with this idea
  1400. emus ^^
  1401. emus am I?
  1402. phryk emus, probably not, but I'd say it's the implementation that counts. :P
  1403. emus yep, wayback machine possibly too
  1404. emus gn8
  1405. phryk moparisthebest, yeah, but would i even have a chance to get y'all to sign off on it? like, I don't even know who here besides Zash and jcbrand are actually XSF members.^^
  1406. phryk night, emus.
  1407. emus same!
  1408. phryk hah, i still got a couple hours work before me, but thanks. :P
  1409. moparisthebest phryk, sure, if it's a XEP there's a well defined submission process I can point you to/help you with, if it's something else... then I don't know but this is the place to ask
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  1411. phryk moparisthebest, is there already a social or political XEP like that? someone was previously talking about a CoC, is that an XEP, too?
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  1414. Zash statement? on what?
  1415. Zash something like https://raw.githubusercontent.com/stpeter/manifesto/master/manifesto.txt ?
  1416. moparisthebest phryk, CoC is here https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html a Procedural XEP, I'd kind of like to see it like that
  1417. moparisthebest I guess then board would have to approve/reject
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  1419. phryk @Zash not dropping/undermining E2EE because of political pressure, mainly. Would have to think this through, make a draft, then collect feedback here, yadda yadda.^^
  1420. phryk But yes, something like that – is that somewhere on xmpp.org, too?
  1421. Zash not exactly, but a search finds https://xmpp.org/2013/11/xmpp-ubiquitous-encryption-a-manifesto/
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  1423. phryk Then a good approach might be for me to read the entire manifesto and see whether I can update it to include modern E2EE and pour it into XEP form?
  1424. moparisthebest *that* manifesto was really just about mandatory TLS on the federated network right?
  1425. Zash moparisthebest, yes
  1426. Zash from around the time of the Snowden stuff
  1427. Zash as was the RFC linked
  1428. phryk exactly. hence adding modern E2EE stuff.
  1429. phryk Yup. And we now have to expect crypto wars… 2? 3? 4?^^
  1430. moparisthebest I thought you were proposing some additional procedures for vetting new protocols coming in
  1431. moparisthebest ie, rejecting ones that harm e2e or something, unsure, sounds annoying to word correctly
  1432. Zash That TLS manifesto was aimed at the wider community, not the XSF, which isn't in charge of such policy decisions anyway.
  1433. phryk Ah, alrighty. I guess that'll make things easier, as we can just tackle the current problem of undermining/banning E2EE.
  1434. msavoritias Yep sounds like a good idea
  1435. phryk Cool. If I had my KanBan thing already deployed, I'd add it for after building the woofer and deploying my KanBan thing and the XMPP service. ^^
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  1444. phryk So I'll just make a physical note for it and hope it don't get lost :D
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  1449. crypt > moparisthebest: > 2022-05-05 04:03 (CDT) > I don't care if $insert-political-compass-coordinates wrote the spec/software, if it's helpful to me, I'll use it We agree on something for a change.
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  1452. pep. Maybe alongside the CoC we should also have something like this: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8890 "XMPP is for End Users" :)
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  1454. pep. Even though of course it would only speak in the XSF's name
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  1465. pep. That reminds me someday poezio should remember /ignore'd participants
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  1467. crypt And for the record... I like pep. (from the posts and activity I've seen).
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  1470. moparisthebest Maybe we should just link those two RFCs and say "us too" ?
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  1546. crypt > phryk: > 2022-05-05 03:57 (CDT) > The world is where we live, tho. Can we agree that assuming the two (XSF and world politics) don't have any contact points is foolhardy? This begets tribalism, not community. If you only want to interact with people who share **your** world view and values. In essence, exclusionary. But I know no one cares about this outsider's opinion.
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  1549. moparisthebest I don't think anyone said that
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  1551. moparisthebest And everyone likes pep. , How could you not? :)
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  1555. phryk > implying
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  1561. crypt Might as well post a statement of what the XSF believes so people know what they're walking into if you go the route. Either all are welcome or not.
  1562. crypt Might as well post a statement of what the XSF believes so people know what they're walking into if you go thid route. Either all are welcome or not.
  1563. crypt Might as well post a statement of what the XSF believes so people know what they're walking into if you go this route. Either all are welcome or not.
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  1565. moparisthebest crypt: this is what the XSF believes https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation/
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  1567. crypt The thread that brings all together should be the love for XMPP.
  1568. crypt > moparisthebest: > 2022-05-05 06:43 (CDT) > crypt: this is what the XSF believes https://xmpp.org/about/xmpp-standards-foundation/ Perfectly acceptable and shouldn't be changed.
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