XSF Discussion - 2022-05-06

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  16. thilo.molitor

    what steps do I have to accomplish to get an account for wiki.xmpp.org?

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  159. jcbrand

    IIRC someone has to create it for you, but I can't remember who

  160. jcbrand

    (not very helpful I know)

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  171. Guus

    I can do that. Instructions are actually on the home page, linking to this article: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Sysops

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  196. emus

    thilo.molitor: let us know what changes has been done

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  269. Link Mauve

    “22:09:34 moparisthebest> I don't even like that language, why should anyone "come to us" in the first place? only if they feel like it I suppose”, around me, there were quite a few of my friends who once tried to contribute to XMPP clients, not even specs or servers or anything similar, but in my experience you usually come to that after you’ve found them lacking in some way and want to improve them.

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  271. Link Mauve

    Merge/pull requests being neglected for years (perhaps forever), issues being ignored or closed with little to no consideration, anxiety about issues being public or them not doing the right thing or posting what’s needed, were powerful deterrents to them continuing in that direction.

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  273. Link Mauve

    Oh, and communication only in chat rooms where you have to socialise with a lot of unknown people is also an issue.

  274. Link Mauve

    Some people very much would want to contribute, but all of this tech acts as a barrier which filters them out, to never see them again.

  275. Link Mauve

    Some of these people are happily working at a tech company, brilliant CS students, or even people from very different fields who could help with non-technical stuff.

  276. jcbrand

    > Merge/pull requests being neglected for years (perhaps forever) This comes back to the issue of free labour. Other people are not obligated to do free work for you, and to the extent that projects are open source, they can be forked.

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  278. jcbrand

    In a voluntary system, where people are not compelled to do work for others, you will have a situation where PRs aren't addressed

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  280. jcbrand

    It's in the nature of the agreement that people aren't forced to work for free on stuff they don't want to

  281. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, yes, but even with very little resources there are huge improvements to be had here.

  282. jcbrand

    Can you give a concrete example?

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  284. Link Mauve

    In another project I work on, the main maintainer is trying to at least put labels on issues and merge requests, and give a succint answer as to whether she feels it’s a good direcion or not.

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  286. Ge0rG looks at his own issue trackers, full of shame

  287. Link Mauve

    Bigger projects often have a bot which auto-replies to new issues/MRs requesting a particular maintainer for the code changed.

  288. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, /me as well, I’m not good at all at that yet. ^^'

  289. jcbrand

    Link Mauve: That's work. She has decided to spend the time and energy on that, but no-one can demand it from her

  290. jcbrand

    It's great that she does, and I also think people like that deserve praise (which gets into the whole meritocracy debate)

  291. jcbrand

    but we can't demand or even expect it

  292. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, that’s obviously work yeah.

  293. Ge0rG

    jcbrand: I would say this is the difference between a free software project and a source code dump

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  295. jcbrand

    People are free to walk away from a project which they don't want to work on anymore

  296. Daniel

    Reviewing pull requests / code review is absolutely dreadful work. My next open source project is probably just going to be 'closed contribution'. That's at least honestly communicating how I feel

  297. jcbrand

    particularly if they don't have paying customers

  298. jcbrand

    if you have paying customers you could still argue that you have some responsibility towards them

  299. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, then advertise that you are not working on it any longer, and would like someone else to step up as a maintainer.

  300. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, why just if they are paying?

  301. jcbrand

    because there was an explicit exchange of value and generally that comes with some kind of binding agreement

  302. Link Mauve

    I personally feel this responsibility towards my users no matter the money I receive from them (I don’t receive any).

  303. jcbrand

    Yes, because you're a conscientious person, as are most people who work on FOSS for free for many years

  304. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, a lot of companies would disagree with you, closing at random and never doing any of the maintainance you once paid for.

  305. jcbrand

    Yes, and that's worth criticizing

  306. jcbrand

    If a company goes bankrupt, it kinda goes again into the "can't force people to work for free" thing

  307. jcbrand

    aka slavery

  308. jcbrand

    But I respect the people/companies who open source their code or try to accommodate users when they go bankrupt

  309. pep.

    That's work, sure, and that's what it takes to include people that wouldn't feel included. It's a choice to make

  310. Link Mauve

    ↑ this.

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  312. Link Mauve

    I described a few bits of hurdles which prevented potential contributors from getting into the XMPP community, mostly because of their upbringing as women but not only, whether we act on it or not is up to us.

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  315. jcbrand

    So MRs not being addressed is keeping woman away from contributing to XMPP?

  316. jcbrand

    So MRs not being addressed is keeping women away from contributing to XMPP?

  317. Ge0rG

    it's keeping non-stubborn people away from contributing

  318. Link Mauve

    When I said upbringing, (at least here in France) it comes with the baggage of aiming to be as discreet as possible, to not make waves, to avoid confrontation, to try to do things on your own before reaching for help, if ever, etc.

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  320. Link Mauve

    This isn’t specific to women, you’ll find countless counter-examples of both genres, but it is still a consequence of gendered education.

  321. jcbrand

    Doing things on your own before reaching for help is good advice

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  323. jcbrand

    I wish more people followed it

  324. jcbrand

    Another would be to explain what you did and why you're stuck when you ask for help

  325. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, being stuck and giving up before reaching out for help isn’t a good outcome.

  326. Link Mauve

    And you will need help, when you’re completely new to both free software, XMPP, a particular client, its culture, bug tracker, community, maintainers…

  327. jcbrand

    Perhaps being stubborn is a requirement for being a FOSS contributor? Perhaps giving up prematurely is just not going to cut it? Regardless of what CoC a community has or what other things it does?

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  329. jcbrand

    There needs to be some kind of intrinsic motivation here... you have to be motivated to be involved and to do stuff

  330. pep.

    Perhaps being stubborn is indeed a requirement to be a Foss contributor because of what we made it

  331. msavoritias

    jcbrand: absolutely disagree

  332. pep.

    It's not an inherent requirement to being a Foss contributor

  333. jcbrand

    pep. Because of the nature of voluntary interaction

  334. msavoritias

    Yeap. Its what we made of foss culture

  335. msavoritias

    Which basically is open source software that doesnt really respect its users at all

  336. Daniel

    Being able to research / use Google is 95% of our industry

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  338. msavoritias

    Not in all cases of course

  339. pep.

    jcbrand: there is a lot more than voluntary interactions going on here, you forgot about all the power structures

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  341. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, oh, one of the people I have in mind is very stubborn, she’ll try to fix her problem for days or weeks or months before giving up. But once fixed, if the answer is *tumbleweed* she won’t be able to overcome that alone.

  342. jcbrand

    I don't know what you mean, if she fixed the problem, she can use that fix

  343. pep.


  344. Link Mauve

    Contributing to free software isn’t about fixing your own problem and then using your own fork forever, an integral part of it is providing it to other users as well.

  345. jcbrand

    Yes, and if other users reject it, then that's the way it is

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  347. jcbrand

    You can't force other people to use your FOSS code

  348. Link Mauve

    pep., the thing you see in cartoons, where to signify nothing happens some ball of straw (?) rolls in the background.

  349. pep.

    Link Mauve: oh

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  352. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, I don’t have any ready-made solution to those social problems, otherwise I’d be advocating for them already, but saying “that’s just the way it is” and thus ditching a lot of potential contributors isn’t something I approve of.

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  354. jcbrand

    I'm not ditching anyone

  355. Link Mauve

    Current FOSS culture is.

  356. jcbrand

    I just don't buy this argument. As if there is a long line of people waiting outside to contribute and somehow we (being bad in some way) are preventing them from contributing

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  358. msavoritias

    Yep. This is a widespread problem of my cide i dont care. Which is funny because open source is supposed to be about collaboration

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  360. jcbrand

    msavoritias: maybe for you

  361. jcbrand

    I'm not against collaboration but you can't say what FOSS is for everyone

  362. msavoritias

    jcbrand: that is what you are describing tho

  363. Link Mauve

    I don’t think so either, but in the off case of someone wanting to contribute who isn’t part of our current circles, the many barriers to entry we erected are a problem.

  364. jcbrand

    No, I'm describing voluntary interaction, of which collaboration is a part, but there's also competition in FOSS and other forms of interaction

  365. pep.

    Again, maybe that's because we want it this way

  366. jcbrand

    To me, FOSS is about freedom. The freedom from coercion is a big part of that.

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  375. Link Mauve

    We can say XMPP is a white boys club, that probably wouldn’t be too far from the truth. Still, I don’t like that fact.

  376. Link Mauve

    And I don’t think we should aim at keeping it closed that way.

  377. jcbrand

    It's wrong though

  378. jcbrand

    There are Indian developers working on XMPP, there are woman and there are other non-white people

  379. msavoritias

    > jcbrand wrote: > No, I'm describing voluntary interaction, of which collaboration is a part, but there's also competition in FOSS and other forms of interaction What you are describing doesnt sound like voluntary interaction though. It sounds more like contributors have to "prove" themselves by passing a bunch of barriers we have to them cintributing.

  380. jcbrand

    And I'm not aware of anyone aiming to keep it a white boys club

  381. pep.

    jcbrand: marginally yes

  382. Link Mauve

    Oh sure, a lot of non-white boys are working with XMPP, but how many are involved in this community?

  383. jcbrand

    msavoritias: No, I'm saying other people cannot be forced to review and integrate contributions

  384. jcbrand

    Because participation is voluntary

  385. msavoritias

    jcbrand: sure. But the labels as Link Mauve said or the better communication with the COC or other initiatives are part of that making it easier

  386. jcbrand

    Honestly, if I was a woman or non-white, I think I would be annoyed if my contribution is considered

  387. jcbrand

    Honestly, if I was a woman or non-white, I think I would be annoyed if my contribution is considered marginal

  388. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, this is just one specific issue, amongst many others (of which most of us are probably not aware).

  389. jcbrand

    msavoritias: So what? You still cannot force someone to add labels

  390. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, what do you mean “considered marginal”?

  391. jcbrand

    Simple as that

  392. msavoritias

    The mentality of i dont have to do anything for users/contributors is very exclusionary by nature

  393. jcbrand

    Ah so "inclusivity" requires people being forced to do things against their will?

  394. msavoritias

    > jcbrand wrote: > msavoritias: So what? You still cannot force someone to add labels No i cant. I can just say that saying that it is voluntary while not doing the minimmum effort to collaborate fith the community and your users doesnt seem very voluntary

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  396. pep.

    jcbrand: well you choose to be inclusive. Here it doesn't seem like you want to be

  397. msavoritias

    It feels like a "test" i have to pass to prove myself to you

  398. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, if their will is to keep excluding potential contributors based on self-made walls, perhaps yeah.

  399. jcbrand

    pep. I'm not exclusive. I don't exclude anyone from using my code, from forking it, or from contributing to it. That's enough

  400. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, I wasn’t going especially for your project, I think exactly none of us are being inclusive currently.

  401. pep.

    Not being something doesn't equal being its opposite

  402. jcbrand

    Link Mauve I'm replying to pep. saying that I don't want to be inclusive

  403. Link Mauve

    “Just fork it if you aren’t happy” isn’t being inclusive, it’s the bare minimum you must allow to be considered free software.

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  406. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, it’s again not your project, but your stance in this discussion which he is pointing.

  407. jcbrand

    My stance is that people cannot and shouldn't be forced to do free work, and you guys are saying that free work is required to be inclusive

  408. pep.

    (Also I'm on the phone sorry, really short sentences and latency because typing)

  409. jcbrand

    If you want to do the work that you think is necessary to be inclusive, then by all means, don't let me stop you, but you can't expect it from people and somehow tell them they're bad people if they don't want to do free work

  410. jcbrand

    And IMO part of contributing to FOSS is to be realistic

  411. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, not necessarily from you tbh, other contributors who like that could do it, I’ve always seen a huge increase in pleasantness to interact with projects when someone is managing the bug tracker, even if they themselves aren’t a developer.

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  413. jcbrand

    and to realise that you can't demand unpaid volunteers to do stuff for you

  414. jcbrand

    Link Mauve: Yes, emus has done that for Converse and it makes a big difference

  415. Link Mauve

    But that’s also voluntary work, if it isn’t welcomed or encouraged or rewarded it will never happen, or in the off chance someone wants to do it they will stop pretty quickly.

  416. pep.

    jcbrand: you're saying two things here though, you're saying we expect too much for you to be inclusive, and you're also saying you already are, which conflicts with the first part

  417. jcbrand

    No, I said I'm not exclusive

  418. jcbrand

    Which to me is enough

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  420. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, I don’t think we’ve said you are a bad person for not doing that work, just pointing that not doing it adds a barrier to potential contributors who aren’t part of the white boys club. :p

  421. jcbrand

    It's not about me personally

  422. jcbrand

    It's about the line of argument being taken

  423. jcbrand

    I gotta get to work

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  425. Link Mauve

    See you! \o_

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  427. Link Mauve

    This was an interesting discussion, thanks. :)

  428. pep.

    Fwiw I'm happy we got to this point in the 2-3 years I've backed off, there is progress. And it's much easier to chat about it, even though we still don't agree

  429. jcbrand

    One last thing... that I was trying to think of how to formalise... The line of reasoning that you're "exclusionary", "don't respect the users" and so on, is a negative form of motivation. It's saying, "do this or you're not a good person". I don't think this is helpful. It's much better to motivate people positively. So, the people who *do* make an effort, give them praise, give them credibility and appreciation, so that there is an incentive to continue.

  430. jcbrand

    Thanks as well 🙂

  431. Link Mauve

    jcbrand, I think it’s usually done that way in communities which take that problem hands on and work on solutions together.

  432. Kev

    I don't think there's any requirement on OSS volunteers to be inclusionary, or indeed to have any sort of community ta all if they don't wish to - it's enough to throw some code over the wall (although I do think it's good to set expectations). But if one *does* want to build a development/whatever community it is a positive thing to try to find ways to remove barriers to people joining it. For my tuppence.

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  434. Link Mauve

    I’ve heard very good echoes of that in the Rust community for instance, although I haven’t interacted much with them to experience it first hand.

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  437. pep.

    So the question really is, does the XSF want it :)

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  439. jonas’

    no, the question is, who does it ;)

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  443. Kev

    Both are questions :)

  444. Kev

    But yes, just deciding you desire something to happen doesn't, sadly, come with a magic wand.

  445. jonas’

    not wrong

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  448. pep.

    No, the XSF as a whole can take a stance and decide (or not) to be inclusive. In a way it's already done with the CoC. And everybody who gravitates around the XSF is of course encouraged to contribute. It's not a one person job, it's the effort of the whole community. If not everybody does it, then just one person could ruin efforts of a small group

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  450. jonas’

    well if the XSF takes a stance and then nobody does the job, it's not good either

  451. pep.

    Well here we are then. The CoC is out, what now

  452. jonas’

    do things and talk about them?

  453. Kev

    There's probably two 'doing its' here. One is following whatever community norm we try to set for ourselves, and everyone needs to do that - but potentially someone needs to police it. The other is putting in the work to come up with norms, and whatever positive actions might need explicitly doing.

  454. Kev

    If the CoC says "Don't be an arsehole" - everyone needs to not be an arsehole. If we decide we want to find underrepresented groups and reach out to them, that needs an explicit action from someone(s).

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  457. Daniel

    > If we decide we want to find underrepresented groups and reach out to them, that needs an explicit action from someone(s). I wonder how that would actually work in practice. besides 'being nice and welcoming'

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  463. Link Mauve

    Daniel, probably a bit like design work, where we would contract someone who is affected by some of these issues and work with them to improve our stuff.

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  465. Daniel


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  467. Link Mauve

    Daniel, the issue here is about improving things we are not even aware are a problem.

  468. Link Mauve

    Which is very similar to design/UX work in our software, as we’re used to them we don’t see the glaring problems caused by it.

  469. Daniel

    no i mean how and where would I actually find someone to work on my XMPP project?

  470. Daniel

    i don’t mean hiring a consultant to tell me how to be more nice

  471. Link Mauve

    Ah uh, I don’t actually know.

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  474. Kev

    Daniel: It was meant to be an example of a thing needing explicit action, in contrast to group compliance, rather than something I was proposing.

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  510. Link Mauve

    Oh, another inclusivity thing which is very often overlooked in our community is i18n.

  511. Link Mauve

    Our specifications are all written in English, and the few Russian ones get laughed at (perhaps at reason, I haven’t been able to read them).

  512. mathieui

    Yeah, but at the same time translating specifications is possibly even harder than writing them in the first place

  513. Link Mauve

    When I wrote my first XMPP client, if some French association didn’t have a page about getting started in French I wouldn’t have been able to do it probably.

  514. Link Mauve

    mathieui, yup, I agree.

  515. Link Mauve

    And keeping them up to date with the source of truth is even harder.

  516. Link Mauve

    But the vast majority of people don’t speak English.

  517. Guus

    Do you have a concrete proposal?

  518. Link Mauve

    I was insisting on bug trackers earlier, the barrier of having to speak English there has been a big issue for many people around me (this time not women, their handicap was being French :p).

  519. pep.

    Yeah I had to propose my help to someone in jabberfr@ not so long ago about this ^

  520. Ge0rG

    I still remember the handicap of interacting with French xmpp projects in the early days of Android. it was a horrible experience

  521. pep.

    And it happens regularly

  522. Link Mauve

    Guus, making language-specific rooms, providing help with opening issues by proxy, stuff like that.

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  524. pep.

    Making obvious where these places are, also

  525. mathieui

    Link Mauve, but I am not sure there is strong value into making that close to the XSF, as opposed to making it wherever there is a community of local-speaking XMPP people

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  527. Ge0rG

    XMPP is a very small community, it can become rather hard to maintain support venues in multiple languages

  528. Link Mauve

    mathieui, yup, with JabberFR we kind of fill that hole already for French.

  529. mathieui


  530. pep.

    mathieui, I'm not sure I entirely agree. Does that mean people on JabberFR should do their own specifications their? And not within the XSF?

  531. pep.

    mathieui, I'm not sure I entirely agree. Does that mean people on JabberFR should do there? own specifications their? And not within the XSF?

  532. pep.

    (fail correction.)

  533. mathieui

    No, I was talking about the chatroom & help thing

  534. pep.

    Right but one thing leads to another

  535. Link Mauve

    Our wiki is terribly understaffed (with zero current contributor), but it once provided translation of various resources from the XSF.

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  537. pep.

    The fact is that one has to speak english to contribute to anything XSF (even tech in general)

  538. mathieui

    on the other hand, I could see value in being able to i18n xmpp.org, specifications aside

  539. Guus

    I wonder where we are with this on a scale of "desirable" to "realizable".

  540. Link Mauve

    It never got linked to from xmpp.org though.

  541. mathieui

    Guus, we are currently nowhere :p

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  543. mathieui

    and there is no clear and simple action to be taken on the XSF side as of now

  544. pep.

    Guus, I think a first step as was said above would be to link to places that currently exist. That we can probably change on xmpp.org

  545. Vidak has joined

  546. pep.

    And yeah i18n on xmpp.org if it's not already there (I think it is to some extent?) would also help

  547. pep.

    Ok /fr/ is a thing but everything is in english

  548. pep.

    So there's tooling already

  549. mathieui

    hugo supports multilingual stuff

  550. pep.

    (and the theme)

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  553. pep.

    But I do think we could come up with something regarding specifications

  554. mathieui

    I wonder if it is possible to plug weblate or other translation facilities onto the website, instead of having to commit manually each translation

  555. mathieui

    (and having to be aware of what needs to be translated)

  556. Guus

    I think that half-complete, or worse, outdated i18n is a lot worse than having no i18n.

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  559. mathieui

    Guus, I have mixed feelings on that

  560. Guus

    and if jabberfr apparently doesn't have the resources to get their own native wiki up to date, I have very little confidence that the XSF is going to pull off i18n properly.

  561. Link Mauve

    Guus, it would be easier to do translation in a weblate than copying from one xmpp.org page into some MediaWiki page, and then doing the translation there, without any way to track changes.

  562. Guus

    Would I object to having a fully i18n website en resource repo? Not at all. Can we do it properly? Only if we throw more money at it than that I believe is sensible.

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  566. pep.

    Yeah I also have mixed feelings on half-i18n. I'm not entirely sure I agree. Understanding something a little seems better than not understanding at all

  567. mathieui

    Guus, the issue of the jabberfr wiki is multifold, we don’t like wikis, it needs around 10 years of catching up, the main wiki contributor disappeared a few years ago, and updating this stuff is thankless work :p

  568. Guus

    mathieui: all of these arguments will be equally true for an i18n effort in XSF.

  569. mathieui

    Guus, not really, the scope of doing i18n effort in the XSF is much more limited (specifications aside)

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  571. mathieui

    there are *hundreds* of pages about dead clients on the jabberfr wiki, with multiple references, things from the early days, JEP references, etc

  572. Guus

    an insurmountable scope nonetheless.

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  582. Guus

    I'd love to be proven wrong - and occasionally, I am, but I am far from optimistic here.

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  585. mathieui

    I’ll put it differently: translating is hard work best done by professionals and I don’t exactly have confidence to proppose i18n on the xsf website; but it is much more framed than having to write an XMPP reference on a wiki with links to all relevant information, translated, for different levels of technical expertise, with server guides, client guides, client version history with feature listing and drawbacks, video tutorials

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  589. Link Mauve

    GIF tutorials! :D

  590. Link Mauve

    (Yes, the file format. :D)

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  596. Link Mauve

    I wouldn’t be able to do it alone, but as I enjoy doing translation work I would certainly contribute to such an effort.

  597. jonas’

    I'll happily add things to my weblate instance (which is currently only used for Snikket stuff)

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  606. msavoritias

    I am open to doing translation work too if it matters

  607. pep.

    Me too.

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  610. Guus

    Realizing that this is different from what we are discussing here, but: if people enjoy doing translations, then there are plenty of projects that would welcome those.

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  612. emus

    > jcbrand escribió: > Link Mauve: Yes, emus has done that for Converse and it makes a big difference He is talking about labeling issues for example and it is a tedious task, but I have managed to do it for Jitsi, Converse, Monal, blabber and yaxim. and I am happy to invest in others, too

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  614. Link Mauve

    Guus, I already do translation on a few XMPP projects, but would like more of them I think. ^^

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  617. pep.

    Guus: not that I particularly enjoy translating. I also think I'm pretty bad at it. I do it because it needs doing

  618. Guus

    Link Mauve: Openfire has received a full French translation only last month, but that excludes all of its plugins. I'm more than happy for anyone to have a crack at those.

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  620. Link Mauve


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  622. Guus

    pep.: I feel you. I absolutely detest doing translations myself.

  623. Guus

    another project: https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/conversejs/#languages

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  625. Guus

    if people enjoy this stuff... you'll be welcomed with open arms.

  626. Guus

    there might be the odd Dutch guy obsessively throwing flowers at you.

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  628. Link Mauve

    Guus, I have done a good part of the translation of Converse. :)

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  630. Guus

    I'd be happy to point out how to perform translations for Openfire to anyone interested. Let's do that in open_chat@conference.igniterealtime.org rather than here though.

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  634. msavoritias

    Guus: i was talking in the context of being able to translate the xmpp.org website and/or xeps with weblate

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  646. Link Mauve

    Alright, the French translation of Converse is now up to date again!

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  1080. emus

    I assume its known?

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  1091. MattJ

    Are we using Gitlab for anything these days?

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  1093. emus

    I thought there was some moving of the xeps velongings? But I am not sure if I found the right repo

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  1102. emus


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  1104. emus

    jonas’: or was it some testing?

  1105. emus

    last commit 1 yr ago

  1106. emus

    I assume not

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  1108. jonas’

    it was some testing, I'll delete it some time these days

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  1114. emus

    jonas’: does this .onion publication suggestion belong in the github repo?

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  1118. moparisthebest

    it's really a task for infrastructure team...

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  1126. crypt

    > Link Mauve: > 2022-05-06 03:01 (CDT) > Current FOSS culture is. ???

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  1128. crypt

    Link Mauve: Implies the current _culture_ must fixed to accommodate whom?

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  1130. crypt

    People who are not interested in something doesn't equate to _left out_.

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  1144. crypt

    If you want diversity and representation, then you're talking about politics again.

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  1179. jonas’

    crypt, oh good, I finally catch you

  1180. jonas’

    in reply to your request earlier

  1181. jonas’

    two days back or so

  1182. jonas’

    crypt, ok, let me translate your message, i.e. what you said to me effectively: > jonas’: do you want to invest time and energy in a discussion of changing the tos [which were instated to save time and energy]. If yes, which room would work best for you? Perhaps a scheduled time on a weekend day, so that as many people as possible can throw in their uninformed [because they don't run the service and don't know what comes with it] ideas? > Perhaps even announce it on the homepage to get as many random folks involved as possible! It could cause even more traffic in the support channel in the future, taking more of your freetime without any compensation! I hope you can see why I'm not going to do that. People who're interested in change need to first show that they are ready to invest *their own time and energy* in that. I'm not going to do that for anyone unless I *want* to, which I don't for this and at this point. I'm not at all interested to go into "advance payment" on any contributions (i.e. I won't write documentation beyond what exists, blogposts or share any details beyond what I might want to share in a specific moment and a question from someone who I'm not familiar with is not likely to inspire interest in sharing anything). One way to show this can be to run your own instance of the service. Another way can be to make pull requests or send patches if you don't like interacting with GitHub.

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  1185. crypt

    jonas’: No worries

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  1190. crypt

    jonas’: I respect the fact that German law may limit you.

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  1208. crypt

    jonas’: if you ever want to chat and bounce some ideas off each other, feel free to reach out to me.

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  1255. Link Mauve

    crypt, not “diversity and representation”, which sounds like some corporate bullshit, I talked about actual people who wanted to make actual contributions but got stopped by the many barriers to entry we have.

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  1267. crypt

    Link Mauve: can you list the barriers so we're clear?

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  1269. Link Mauve

    No, because I don’t experience them myself, being in free software since what feels like forever.

  1270. Link Mauve

    Earlier today I mentioned those, but there are many more I’m not aware of: 09:34:17 Link Mauve> Merge/pull requests being neglected for years (perhaps forever), issues being ignored or closed with little to no consideration, anxiety about issues being public or them not doing the right thing or posting what’s needed, were powerful deterrents to them continuing in that direction. 09:35:02 Link Mauve> Oh, and communication only in chat rooms where you have to socialise with a lot of unknown people is also an issue.

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  1274. crypt

    > Link Mauve: > 2022-05-06 02:54 (CDT) > Earlier today I mentioned those, but there are many more I’m not aware of: > 09:34:17 Link Mauve> Merge/pull requests being neglected for years (perhaps forever), issues being ignored or closed with little to no consideration, anxiety about issues being public or them not doing the right thing or posting what’s needed, were powerful deterrents to them continuing in that direction. > 09:35:02 Link Mauve> Oh, and communication only in chat rooms where you have to socialise with a lot of unknown people is also an issue. This group is addressable. I hope people are listening.

  1275. crypt

    > Link Mauve: > 2022-05-06 02:54 (CDT) > Earlier today I mentioned those, but there are many more I’m not aware of: > 09:34:17 Link Mauve> Merge/pull requests being neglected for years (perhaps forever), issues being ignored or closed with little to no consideration, anxiety about issues being public or them not doing the right thing or posting what’s needed, were powerful deterrents to them continuing in that direction. > 09:35:02 Link Mauve> Oh, and communication only in chat rooms where you have to socialise with a lot of unknown people is also an issue. These are addressable. I hope people are listening.

  1276. Link Mauve

    I think so too. :)

  1277. moparisthebest

    only by the individual projects, nothing at all to do with the XSF

  1278. moparisthebest

    I personally feel excluded when projects say "join our discussion on discord!" but I just write them off as shitty projects and move on

  1279. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, we were talking about the XMPP community at large, not just the XSF itself.

  1280. Link Mauve

    For XSF stuff, allowing GitHub PRs in addition to emails was a good accessibility move imo.

  1281. Zash

    moparisthebest, no no no, that's _you_ being excluding!!! /s

  1282. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, I too don’t contribute to such projects.

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  1286. moparisthebest

    the XMPP community at large is fine, some projects don't want your contributions, others do, if you think an individual project could improve talk with the devs

  1287. Link Mauve

    Their loss I guess.

  1288. Zash

    Mutually Assured Exclusion!

  1289. Sam has left

  1290. Zash

    I get the feeling that there are two issues that are confused or conflated, one being that of having an including and welcoming environment, and the other being the fact that some kinds of contributions create additional work for volunteers.

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  1293. moparisthebest

    all contributions create additional work for volunteers, it's just a matter of if that additional work is worth it or not

  1294. Daniel

    My bozo bit doesn't discriminate

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  1297. emus

    Folks, recently someone posted a new design of the XMPP logo. Did you see it? Do you find the post?

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  1327. moparisthebest

    doesn't OX end up uploading an encrypted private key such that the server can pull off https://www.kopenpgp.com/ ?

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  1329. mdosch

    No implementation does this atm.

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  1339. moparisthebest

    security considerations then ? GPG is not going to fix it I guess...

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  1348. Daniel

    OpenPGP is horribly complex and the fact that I don't know for sure is proof of that _but_ I don't think ox uses secret key rings?

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  1354. Daniel

    But instead uploads a passphrase protected pgp message that contains the key

  1355. Daniel

    Which I _think_ is a different mechanism?

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  1367. Daniel

    OX borrows from autocrypt in that regard iirc. My knowledge of ox is limited. But I have implemented autocrypt...

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  1369. moparisthebest

    it's pretty horrible all together https://latacora.micro.blog/2019/07/16/the-pgp-problem.html but there isn't a great replacement either

  1370. mdosch

    moparisthebest: vanitasvitae or flow (sorry, I forgot whom was it) said today that Ox is not affected by kopenpgp.

  1371. moparisthebest

    well that's good, thanks mdosch

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  1374. mdosch

    Afaiu they say a mitigation is to store the key as encrypted pgp message which is exactly what Ox is doing: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0373.html#backup-encryption

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  1376. vanitasvitae

    moparisthebest: what mdosch just said

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  1380. vanitasvitae

    moparisthebest: but also this attack requires a very specific attack scenario

  1381. vanitasvitae

    It basically only applies to webmail afaict.

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  1383. vanitasvitae

    So even if GnuPG doesn't fix it, it isn't too bad.

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  1385. vanitasvitae

    If an attacker can alter your public keys on your machine you are screwed anyways

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  1401. mdosch

    > it's pretty horrible all together https://latacora.micro.blog/2019/07/16/the-pgp-problem.html but there isn't a great replacement either I read a little bit and so far it only says "it's bad" without explaining why. I hope the explanations will follow, but so far I enjoy reading it. > Back in the MC Hammer era from which PGP originates… > PGP predates modern cryptography; there are Hanson albums that have aged better. 🤣

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  1404. moparisthebest

    It explains why

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  1406. mdosch

    As I said, I am just reading. And so far it didn't and I hope it'll follow. :)

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  1408. mdosch

    > We’ve learned a lot since Steve Urkel graced the airwaves during ABC’s TGIF OMG, are they going to use those pop culture references through the whole post? 🤣

  1409. mdosch

    > and PGP is old enough to buy me drinks So PGP and XMPP could go to a bar and have fun. :)

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  1412. crypt

    Link Mauve: I think this format is not the best to address and resolve issues. For bringing attention to something... sure! But personalities and distractions quickly divert the conversation.

  1413. Link Mauve

    crypt, which format?

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  1415. crypt

    > Link Mauve: > 2022-05-06 03:56 (CDT) > crypt, which format? This open discussion, room format.

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  1417. Link Mauve

    Ah, indeed.

  1418. Link Mauve

    For more actionable tasks it’s better to reach out individual projects imo.

  1419. crypt

    Maybe if there were side threads like in Slack... possible.

  1420. Link Mauve

    I’ve used Slack only once, and that was before it had threads I think.

  1421. crypt

    Basically, a message can become its own conversation thread within the Channel.

  1422. crypt

    People discuss something more in-depth in the side thread.

  1423. crypt

    People can discuss something more in-depth in the side thread.

  1424. crypt

    > Link Mauve: > 2022-05-06 03:58 (CDT) > For more actionable tasks it’s better to reach out individual projects imo. That's what I would do.

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  1430. crypt

    Link Mauve, pep.: is an _XSF Operations_ room in order?

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  1435. moparisthebest

    There is one

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  1446. wgreenhouse

    the xmpp.org website is delegated to something called the i-team (internet team?)

  1447. wgreenhouse

    [infrastructure team?]

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  1451. wgreenhouse


  1452. emus

    but not, it is mostly visually edited buy commteam and members if they have something to change, i team ensures hosting works etc

  1453. wgreenhouse

    ah, thanks for further clarification

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