XSF Discussion - 2022-05-15


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  546. deuill Random question -- should the example here have a `to` attribute? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0308.html#example-1
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  553. Ge0rG deuill: yes, and example 2 should have a from that makes sense and is equal. But that said, with Carbons and MAM you can't rely on the receiving client actually supporting the right XEP
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  555. Ge0rG Oh, it's actually mentioned after the examples
  556. jonas’ (the examples might've been copied from a XEP where servers were queried from the user's account, in which case to/from may be omitted in the request/response)
  557. deuill I'll open a PR!
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  559. deuill Just need to get my Shakespeare on
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  561. pep. Yeah I wish we stopped this already
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  563. pep. No need for more bourgeois literature in specs
  564. jonas’ really
  565. pep. Yes really
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  571. deuill I'm more concerned about the liberal use of different TLDs really
  572. deuill I see `.lit`, `.example`, `.net`
  573. jonas’ well, `.example` is at least reserved for such a purpose
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  596. nikhilmwarrier > deuill: > 2022-05-15 05:36 (GMT+05:30) > Just need to get my Shakespeare on I believeth that the example of thou shalt be more enlightening if it is attributeth by `to`. Hence I have submitted this request in hopes that thou may accepteth the changes of mine. Yes I am fun at parties
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  598. nikhilmwarrier > deuill: > 2022-05-15 05:36 (GMT+05:30) > Just need to get my Shakespeare on I believeth that the example of thou XEP shalt be more enlightening if it is attributeth by `to`. Hence I have submitted this request in hopes that thou may accepteth the changes of mine. Yes I am fun at parties
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  604. deuill Hark! I beseech thee, prithee accepteth mine changes, made true in thine light!
  605. deuill *plays darts*
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  653. Sam Shakespeare is bourgeois? Someone has never read Shakespeare…
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  780. rebeld22 Shakespeare is a racist and misogynistic criminal who should be canceled.
  781. Ge0rG let's build a time machine!
  782. pep. Well without the canceling part, I guess this will apply to basically anybody from this moment in time
  783. Ge0rG let's cancel all of history then?
  784. Zash Giant Comet 2022!
  785. TheCoffeMaker Yeahhh ... Let build a time machine and kill all our past because they didnt fit modern standars
  786. rebeld22 Don't need to. Tchaikovsky is already canceled.
  787. rebeld22 > Shakespeare is a racist and misogynistic criminal who should be canceled. Calm down, I was just being ironic. 😃
  788. TheCoffeMaker lol
  789. Zash This seems to be heading in a very off-topic direction.
  790. edhelas If you want to cancel your history, just clear your MAM database
  791. Zash edhelas, there's no way to do that!
  792. pep. edhelas, yay you got me an new argument for ephemeral messages!!
  793. TheCoffeMaker edhelas, 🏆️
  794. pep. s/argument/point/
  795. rebeld22 What is a MAM database?
  796. Zash Message archive
  797. Zash Used for synchronization of clients that have been offline for some time.
  798. rebeld22 Zash: Thanks.
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  800. Zash Current best(?) practice is to keep it for about a week so all your phones can catch up after going trough looooooooong tunnels.
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  806. pep. So "yay" I guess it's great that nobody wants to discuss this and dismisses the subject as yet another fantasy of woke cancelers? Ah sorry it's offtopic anyway.
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  810. rebeld22 I'm ready to discuss any subject. I don't have taboos!
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  917. qwestion is privacy the main constraint y u cant search mam on muc server as soon as you are in that room, no scrolling?
  918. Ge0rG qwestion: you can query the MAM of a public room even without joining, you just need a client that will implement it
  919. qwestion like no dlding, just as if searching googles index doesnt require to dld the "entire" internet first
  920. qwestion Ge0rG: which cl?
  921. wgreenhouse qwestion: no. the main constraints are performance (most clients fetch one "page" or about 50 messages on entering a room, not the entire history) and client DB design
  922. wgreenhouse qwestion: the client you haven't written yet
  923. wgreenhouse get on it
  924. qwestion wgreenhouse: just need to finish self-building all my personal manufactures first.../s
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  928. wgreenhouse I share the desire; given that my usecase is largely MUCs and IRC channels, in principle I really could mostly settle for whatever is on MAM, and needing to carry around a client db that I manage to get into an unrecoverable state every several months just to have decent search kinda sucks.
  929. qwestion wgreenhouse: y need to dld anything? the muc server could have an index, i send my search term, and dld msgs i.e. 10 at a time , a bit like serp pg1,
  930. Zash Converse.js can be configured to show history before joining, and can scroll up and load earlier history
  931. Zash Full text search is less common however.
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  940. wgreenhouse qwestion: server MAM implementations have an index, just not one optimized for full text search, rather for requesting date ranges.
  941. wgreenhouse qwestion: so you'd just need to write a client that acts as a search crwawler and makes its own index
  942. wgreenhouse it doesn't necessarily need to keep fulltext around forever to do that
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  957. qwestion > Full text search is less common however. Zash: as in inexistent?
  958. qwestion Zash: which cl
  959. qwestion wgreenhouse: y not have prosody or ejabberd do this
  960. wgreenhouse qwestion: chicken and egg--it's of no benefit for servers to waste compute and disk indexing this way if no clients would query it
  961. Zash I'm talking about servers. Prosody doesn't have FTS, don't think ejabberd does. Maybe Openfire has?
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  964. Zash There are clients with this, like Conversations, Dino (which I just used to search for "full text search" here)
  965. Zash But they only search their local archives, not the server
  966. wgreenhouse yep. Conversations is how I generally do this (hence my comment about how silly it feels carrying around a local db that I manage to corrupt every few months just to have decent search)
  967. Zash From where I sit, there's generally more focus o n the private chat use case, which means E2EE, which *really* complicates server-side full text search.
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  969. qwestion wgreenhouse: i think both s and cl can index, but cl doesnt need to to search i.e. google, while server needs to generate index, whether the client chooses to 1) dld serp pg1 equivalent 2)dld all content in index fomat or 3) dld some number of msgs to then generate index client side?
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  971. qwestion Zash: im focused on mucs, though omemo/e2ee can simply trigger a modal warning if client tries to fts serverside (1 or 2, above)
  972. wgreenhouse qwestion: I could not parse most of that :) the current use of MAM, for most clients that use it, is that the client calculates a time interval of which messages it's missing, and uses that to query the server for a date range. as well as perhaps implementing the "scroll up for more" behavior. so server implementers respond to that use case, and index by date. there is no call for them to build an FTS index if nobody queries it.
  973. qwestion Zash: im focused on mucs, though omemo/e2ee can simply trigger a modal warning if client tries to fts serverside (method 1 or 2, above)
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  975. wgreenhouse > From where I sit, there's generally more focus o n the private chat use case, which means E2EE, which *really* complicates server-side full text search. Zash: yup. and that probably looks like, if anything, servers getting dumber and not smarter, less helpful for users primarily interested in public MUCs
  976. Zash Ah, the search tells me ejabberd does have some old non-standard `withtext` thing.
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  978. wgreenhouse oo
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  980. Zash and this quote: > Full text search is a whole problem domain > It requires extra database support, and often language-specific indexes, and so on -- MattJ
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  983. wgreenhouse sounds right.
  984. qwestion new xeps...i would value this new way of dlding index or just the fts results to my query for ie cats (thus sending all msgs containing the word cats, previous 10 msgs at a time startest with most recent, say, for each time i scroll to top)
  985. wgreenhouse and a problem domain that's getting less attention if most are aiming at competing with Signal and WhatsApp
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  987. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0431.html
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  989. wgreenhouse > extending their existing extensions to conform to the extension in this specification that's a hell of a piece of drafting :D
  990. Zash Praise be Dave
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  995. Guus Openfire supports full text search, and should even allow for some fuzzy search
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  997. qwestion Zash: that xep defines which number(s)
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  1001. Zash ?
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  1004. qwestion > while server needs to generate index, whether the client chooses to 1) dld serp pg1 equivalent 2)dld all content in index fomat or 3) dld some number of msgs to then generate index client side
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  1006. qwestion Zash:
  1007. Zash I don't understand any of that.
  1008. Zash XEP-0431 defines a way to discover whether the server supports FTS and the field in the search form to use
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  1010. Zash for _server-side_ FTS
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  1012. Zash If you want to do client-side FTS then just use XEP-0313 to get all the messages and do whatever you want with whatever your local database can do.
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  1056. menel > XEP-0431 > Version 0.2.0 (2020-01-29)¶ > No More Beer 😀🤔
  1057. qwestion k thx
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  1100. Hello Hello
  1101. Zash Hello, Hello
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  1103. Hello coleman Hi
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  1106. Hello coleman what
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  1108. Hello whats your name W
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