XSF Discussion - 2022-05-15


  1. deuill

    Random question -- should the example here have a `to` attribute? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0308.html#example-1

  2. Ge0rG

    deuill: yes, and example 2 should have a from that makes sense and is equal. But that said, with Carbons and MAM you can't rely on the receiving client actually supporting the right XEP

  3. Ge0rG

    Oh, it's actually mentioned after the examples

  4. jonas’

    (the examples might've been copied from a XEP where servers were queried from the user's account, in which case to/from may be omitted in the request/response)

  5. deuill

    I'll open a PR!

  6. deuill

    Just need to get my Shakespeare on

  7. pep.

    Yeah I wish we stopped this already

  8. pep.

    No need for more bourgeois literature in specs

  9. jonas’

    really

  10. pep.

    Yes really

  11. Zash

    haha

  12. deuill

    I'm more concerned about the liberal use of different TLDs really

  13. deuill

    I see `.lit`, `.example`, `.net`

  14. jonas’

    well, `.example` is at least reserved for such a purpose

  15. nikhilmwarrier

    > deuill: > 2022-05-15 05:36 (GMT+05:30) > Just need to get my Shakespeare on I believeth that the example of thou shalt be more enlightening if it is attributeth by `to`. Hence I have submitted this request in hopes that thou may accepteth the changes of mine. Yes I am fun at parties

  16. nikhilmwarrier

    > deuill: > 2022-05-15 05:36 (GMT+05:30) > Just need to get my Shakespeare on I believeth that the example of thou XEP shalt be more enlightening if it is attributeth by `to`. Hence I have submitted this request in hopes that thou may accepteth the changes of mine. Yes I am fun at parties

  17. deuill

    Hark! I beseech thee, prithee accepteth mine changes, made true in thine light!

  18. deuill

    *plays darts*

  19. nikhilmwarrier

    perfection

  20. Sam

    Shakespeare is bourgeois? Someone has never read Shakespeare…

  21. rebeld22

    Shakespeare is a racist and misogynistic criminal who should be canceled.

  22. Ge0rG

    let's build a time machine!

  23. pep.

    Well without the canceling part, I guess this will apply to basically anybody from this moment in time

  24. Ge0rG

    let's cancel all of history then?

  25. Zash

    Giant Comet 2022!

  26. TheCoffeMaker

    Yeahhh ... Let build a time machine and kill all our past because they didnt fit modern standars

  27. rebeld22

    Don't need to. Tchaikovsky is already canceled.

  28. rebeld22

    > Shakespeare is a racist and misogynistic criminal who should be canceled. Calm down, I was just being ironic. 😃

  29. TheCoffeMaker

    lol

  30. Zash

    This seems to be heading in a very off-topic direction.

  31. edhelas

    If you want to cancel your history, just clear your MAM database

  32. Zash

    edhelas, there's no way to do that!

  33. pep.

    edhelas, yay you got me an new argument for ephemeral messages!!

  34. TheCoffeMaker

    edhelas, 🏆️

  35. pep.

    s/argument/point/

  36. rebeld22

    What is a MAM database?

  37. Zash

    Message archive

  38. Zash

    Used for synchronization of clients that have been offline for some time.

  39. rebeld22

    Zash: Thanks.

  40. Zash

    Current best(?) practice is to keep it for about a week so all your phones can catch up after going trough looooooooong tunnels.

  41. pep.

    So "yay" I guess it's great that nobody wants to discuss this and dismisses the subject as yet another fantasy of woke cancelers? Ah sorry it's offtopic anyway.

  42. rebeld22

    I'm ready to discuss any subject. I don't have taboos!

  43. qwestion

    is privacy the main constraint y u cant search mam on muc server as soon as you are in that room, no scrolling?

  44. Ge0rG

    qwestion: you can query the MAM of a public room even without joining, you just need a client that will implement it

  45. qwestion

    like no dlding, just as if searching googles index doesnt require to dld the "entire" internet first

  46. qwestion

    Ge0rG: which cl?

  47. wgreenhouse

    qwestion: no. the main constraints are performance (most clients fetch one "page" or about 50 messages on entering a room, not the entire history) and client DB design

  48. wgreenhouse

    qwestion: the client you haven't written yet

  49. wgreenhouse

    get on it

  50. qwestion

    wgreenhouse: just need to finish self-building all my personal manufactures first.../s

  51. wgreenhouse

    I share the desire; given that my usecase is largely MUCs and IRC channels, in principle I really could mostly settle for whatever is on MAM, and needing to carry around a client db that I manage to get into an unrecoverable state every several months just to have decent search kinda sucks.

  52. qwestion

    wgreenhouse: y need to dld anything? the muc server could have an index, i send my search term, and dld msgs i.e. 10 at a time , a bit like serp pg1,

  53. Zash

    Converse.js can be configured to show history before joining, and can scroll up and load earlier history

  54. Zash

    Full text search is less common however.

  55. wgreenhouse

    qwestion: server MAM implementations have an index, just not one optimized for full text search, rather for requesting date ranges.

  56. wgreenhouse

    qwestion: so you'd just need to write a client that acts as a search crwawler and makes its own index

  57. wgreenhouse

    it doesn't necessarily need to keep fulltext around forever to do that

  58. qwestion

    > Full text search is less common however. Zash: as in inexistent?

  59. qwestion

    Zash: which cl

  60. qwestion

    wgreenhouse: y not have prosody or ejabberd do this

  61. wgreenhouse

    qwestion: chicken and egg--it's of no benefit for servers to waste compute and disk indexing this way if no clients would query it

  62. Zash

    I'm talking about servers. Prosody doesn't have FTS, don't think ejabberd does. Maybe Openfire has?

  63. Zash

    There are clients with this, like Conversations, Dino (which I just used to search for "full text search" here)

  64. Zash

    But they only search their local archives, not the server

  65. wgreenhouse

    yep. Conversations is how I generally do this (hence my comment about how silly it feels carrying around a local db that I manage to corrupt every few months just to have decent search)

  66. Zash

    From where I sit, there's generally more focus o n the private chat use case, which means E2EE, which *really* complicates server-side full text search.

  67. qwestion

    wgreenhouse: i think both s and cl can index, but cl doesnt need to to search i.e. google, while server needs to generate index, whether the client chooses to 1) dld serp pg1 equivalent 2)dld all content in index fomat or 3) dld some number of msgs to then generate index client side?

  68. qwestion

    Zash: im focused on mucs, though omemo/e2ee can simply trigger a modal warning if client tries to fts serverside (1 or 2, above)

  69. wgreenhouse

    qwestion: I could not parse most of that :) the current use of MAM, for most clients that use it, is that the client calculates a time interval of which messages it's missing, and uses that to query the server for a date range. as well as perhaps implementing the "scroll up for more" behavior. so server implementers respond to that use case, and index by date. there is no call for them to build an FTS index if nobody queries it.

  70. qwestion

    Zash: im focused on mucs, though omemo/e2ee can simply trigger a modal warning if client tries to fts serverside (method 1 or 2, above)

  71. wgreenhouse

    > From where I sit, there's generally more focus o n the private chat use case, which means E2EE, which *really* complicates server-side full text search. Zash: yup. and that probably looks like, if anything, servers getting dumber and not smarter, less helpful for users primarily interested in public MUCs

  72. Zash

    Ah, the search tells me ejabberd does have some old non-standard `withtext` thing.

  73. wgreenhouse

    oo

  74. Zash

    and this quote: > Full text search is a whole problem domain > It requires extra database support, and often language-specific indexes, and so on -- MattJ

  75. wgreenhouse

    sounds right.

  76. qwestion

    new xeps...i would value this new way of dlding index or just the fts results to my query for ie cats (thus sending all msgs containing the word cats, previous 10 msgs at a time startest with most recent, say, for each time i scroll to top)

  77. wgreenhouse

    and a problem domain that's getting less attention if most are aiming at competing with Signal and WhatsApp

  78. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0431.html

  79. wgreenhouse

    > extending their existing extensions to conform to the extension in this specification that's a hell of a piece of drafting :D

  80. Zash

    Praise be Dave

  81. Guus

    Openfire supports full text search, and should even allow for some fuzzy search

  82. qwestion

    Zash: that xep defines which number(s)

  83. Zash

    ?

  84. qwestion

    > while server needs to generate index, whether the client chooses to 1) dld serp pg1 equivalent 2)dld all content in index fomat or 3) dld some number of msgs to then generate index client side

  85. qwestion

    Zash:

  86. Zash

    I don't understand any of that.

  87. Zash

    XEP-0431 defines a way to discover whether the server supports FTS and the field in the search form to use

  88. Zash

    for _server-side_ FTS

  89. Zash

    If you want to do client-side FTS then just use XEP-0313 to get all the messages and do whatever you want with whatever your local database can do.

  90. menel

    > XEP-0431 > Version 0.2.0 (2020-01-29)¶ > No More Beer 😀🤔

  91. qwestion

    k thx

  92. Hello

    Hello

  93. Zash

    Hello, Hello

  94. Hello

    coleman Hi

  95. Hello

    coleman what

  96. Hello

    whats your name W