XSF Discussion - 2022-05-31


  1. floretta has left
  2. andrey.g has left
  3. floretta has joined
  4. adiaholic has joined
  5. debacle has left
  6. eu has left
  7. adiaholic has left
  8. eu has joined
  9. adiaholic has joined
  10. adiaholic has left
  11. stp has joined
  12. jl4 has left
  13. Maranda[x] has left
  14. neshtaxmpp has left
  15. floretta has left
  16. floretta has joined
  17. adiaholic has joined
  18. adiaholic has left
  19. neshtaxmpp has joined
  20. anamulhaque has joined
  21. anamulhaque has left
  22. anamulhaque has joined
  23. neshtaxmpp has left
  24. gooya has joined
  25. floretta has left
  26. floretta has joined
  27. rumin-miller has joined
  28. rumin-miller has left
  29. adiaholic has joined
  30. adiaholic has left
  31. anamulhaque has left
  32. anamulhaque has joined
  33. adiaholic has joined
  34. floretta has left
  35. floretta has joined
  36. Calvin has joined
  37. anamulhaque has left
  38. anamulhaque has joined
  39. gooya has left
  40. jcbrand has left
  41. jgart has left
  42. pablo has joined
  43. anamulhaque has left
  44. anamulhaque has joined
  45. adiaholic has left
  46. neshtaxmpp has joined
  47. floretta has left
  48. floretta has joined
  49. Steve Kille has left
  50. Steve Kille has joined
  51. anamulhaque has left
  52. anamulhaque has joined
  53. neshtaxmpp has left
  54. david has joined
  55. david has left
  56. pablo has left
  57. anamulhaque has left
  58. anamulhaque has joined
  59. floretta has left
  60. floretta has joined
  61. Maranda[x] has joined
  62. konstantinos has joined
  63. adiaholic has joined
  64. thndrbvr has left
  65. floretta has left
  66. Yagiza has joined
  67. RayTutu has left
  68. djorz has left
  69. floretta has joined
  70. konstantinos has left
  71. Calvin has left
  72. Half-Shot has left
  73. Matthew has left
  74. uhoreg has left
  75. homebeach has left
  76. Half-Shot has joined
  77. Matthew has joined
  78. homebeach has joined
  79. uhoreg has joined
  80. pjn has left
  81. anamulhaque has left
  82. anamulhaque has joined
  83. Ingolf has joined
  84. konstantinos has joined
  85. menel has joined
  86. anamulhaque has left
  87. anamulhaque has joined
  88. neshtaxmpp has joined
  89. neshtaxmpp has left
  90. pasdesushi has joined
  91. Ingolf has left
  92. Seve has joined
  93. floretta has left
  94. floretta has joined
  95. anamulhaque has left
  96. anamulhaque has joined
  97. nikhilmwarrier has joined
  98. mjk has left
  99. mjk has joined
  100. adiaholic has left
  101. anamulhaque has left
  102. anamulhaque has joined
  103. adiaholic has joined
  104. Ingolf has joined
  105. neshtaxmpp has joined
  106. adiaholic has left
  107. Tobias has joined
  108. adiaholic has joined
  109. anamulhaque has left
  110. anamulhaque has joined
  111. adiaholic has left
  112. mimi89999 has left
  113. Tobias has left
  114. Tobias has joined
  115. Tobias has left
  116. Tobias has joined
  117. adiaholic has joined
  118. lovetox has left
  119. lovetox has joined
  120. Sam has left
  121. Sam has joined
  122. adiaholic has left
  123. neshtaxmpp has left
  124. neshtaxmpp has joined
  125. anamulhaque has left
  126. anamulhaque has joined
  127. adiaholic has joined
  128. neshtaxmpp has left
  129. neshtaxmpp has joined
  130. neshtaxmpp has left
  131. neshtaxmpp has joined
  132. adiaholic has left
  133. lskdjf has joined
  134. mimi89999 has joined
  135. Tobias has left
  136. Tobias has joined
  137. adiaholic has joined
  138. anamulhaque has left
  139. anamulhaque has joined
  140. debacle has joined
  141. wurstsalat has joined
  142. thndrbvr has joined
  143. Paganini has left
  144. emus has joined
  145. adiaholic has left
  146. jcbrand has joined
  147. lovetox has left
  148. adiaholic has joined
  149. anamulhaque has left
  150. anamulhaque has joined
  151. lovetox has joined
  152. neshtaxmpp has left
  153. neshtaxmpp has joined
  154. neshtaxmpp has left
  155. neshtaxmpp has joined
  156. neshtaxmpp has left
  157. neshtaxmpp has joined
  158. neshtaxmpp has left
  159. neshtaxmpp has joined
  160. Sam has left
  161. rebeld22 has left
  162. adiaholic has left
  163. konstantinos has left
  164. karoshi has joined
  165. Sam has joined
  166. neshtaxmpp has left
  167. neshtaxmpp has joined
  168. david has joined
  169. david has left
  170. djorz has joined
  171. anamulhaque has left
  172. anamulhaque has joined
  173. Titi has joined
  174. Titi has left
  175. djorz has left
  176. anamulhaque has left
  177. anamulhaque has joined
  178. Titi has joined
  179. djorz has joined
  180. nikhilmwarrier has left
  181. Steve Kille has left
  182. Steve Kille has joined
  183. L29Ah has left
  184. sebastian has left
  185. sebastian has joined
  186. anamulhaque has left
  187. anamulhaque has joined
  188. adiaholic has joined
  189. goffi has joined
  190. pasdesushi has left
  191. karoshi has left
  192. neshtaxmpp has left
  193. neshtaxmpp has joined
  194. Fishbowler has left
  195. Fishbowler has joined
  196. pasdesushi has joined
  197. goffi has left
  198. djorz has left
  199. adiaholic has left
  200. konstantinos has joined
  201. adiaholic has joined
  202. karoshi has joined
  203. adiaholic has left
  204. msavoritias has joined
  205. anamulhaque has left
  206. adiaholic has joined
  207. goffi has joined
  208. Kev has joined
  209. Guus Are there any best practices on ensuing that only a recognized (mobile) device is used by a particular end-user? For example, not any other phone than the first one that was used by the client (unless some kind of manual administrative action is performed?
  210. APach has left
  211. APach has joined
  212. Guus Basically, I'm looking for a way to prevent a device other than the one that's either implicitly or explicitly associated with the end-user to be used for the account of that end-user.
  213. mh has left
  214. Ingolf has left
  215. Ingolf has joined
  216. Kev Do you control the client and server?
  217. chipmnk has left
  218. Kev It's not a best practice, but in that case you could fairly easily use a persistent resource from the client (but would obviously have to then randomise it on the server).
  219. konstantinos has left
  220. Tim R has joined
  221. jonas’ Guus, generate a certificate, use client-certificate authentication.
  222. mh has joined
  223. SteveF has joined
  224. jonas’ (and put the key into device storage which cannot be copied (easily) to another device, don't allow sign-up with another key unless administrative action)
  225. Kev Or that, depending how much 'administrative action' you want to be required.
  226. Tim R has left
  227. Tim R has joined
  228. Guus Kev: as in resource binding? I thought of that, but I worried that this would be pretty easy to mimic - especially since the resource that's used will be used in stanzas that are sent to other users?
  229. APach has left
  230. Guus jonas’ thanks, that's the route that I was dreading :)
  231. Kev No, you'd reject the client-provided resource and use a server-provided one.
  232. APach has joined
  233. SteveF has left
  234. Guus Kev: ah, right - so the client-provided resource would never escape into the wild. That hinges on clients actually accepting a server-provided resource that's different from the one that they provide. I recall that the spec allows for this, but is that used in practice?
  235. Kev Yes.
  236. yushyin has left
  237. SteveF has joined
  238. SteveF has left
  239. SteveF has joined
  240. SteveF has left
  241. Kev Clients that don't cope with server-provided resources are broken.
  242. Kev But I did predictate it on you controlling the server and client :)
  243. Guus me controlling the server and client does not implicate that they're not broken. :D
  244. adiaholic has left
  245. Kev Heh.
  246. yushyin has joined
  247. jonas’ Guus, why dreading? It should be simple and straightforward and it ensures your requirements more or less cryptographically
  248. adiaholic has joined
  249. Guus nothing involving client-sided certificates is ever simple, in my experience.
  250. jonas’ it is if you treat them mostly as a private key
  251. Kev jonas’ : It does require that either the admin is generating new certs themselves and injecting them into the devices somehow, or that they are somehow tying up randomly client-generated certs with user credentials. Whereas the resource would allow you to build a system where the admin merely has to approve a new client, knowing for whom it is. I guess it depends on Guus's requirements.
  252. jonas’ i.e. no CA involved, possibly even ignore expiration (or let them live for 1000 years)
  253. ralphm has left
  254. Kev But if you're happy to pre-provision the clients with generated certs, it should indeed not be terribly complicated. We've had deployments do similar things in the past.
  255. andrey.g has joined
  256. jonas’ I'd just generate the key on initial sign up
  257. jonas’ and use whatever procedure you use to trust the password the user supplies during signup to trust the key
  258. pasdesushi has left
  259. jonas’ no pre-provisioning or CA involved, that's, indeed, just madneess
  260. jonas’ no pre-provisioning or CA involved, that's, indeed, just madness
  261. APach has left
  262. Guus jonas’: so, have an initial password-based auth, which somehow provides a cert for the device, which, once registered makes unavailable the password-based auth and will require something like SASL External for that device from then on?
  263. Guus I guess that could be sold to the end-user as some kind of 'account activation', which under water registers a cert for the end-user.
  264. Sam has left
  265. SteveF has joined
  266. adiaholic has left
  267. SteveF has left
  268. SteveF has joined
  269. Wojtek has joined
  270. Sam has joined
  271. SteveF has left
  272. SteveF has joined
  273. jonas’ what no
  274. jonas’ just let the app provide the private key instead of the username/password on signup
  275. jonas’ how does your signup procedure work?
  276. jonas’ (if you're integrating with an existing username/password based scheme, then yes, your flow sounds sensible)
  277. adiaholic has joined
  278. konstantinos has joined
  279. neshtaxmpp has left
  280. neshtaxmpp has joined
  281. Sam has left
  282. Sam has joined
  283. xnamed has joined
  284. konstantinos has left
  285. SteveF has left
  286. SteveF has joined
  287. Wojtek has left
  288. marc0s has left
  289. marc0s has joined
  290. Guus jonas’: yeah, user definitions preexist.
  291. neshtaxmpp has left
  292. flow how does any of that ensure that only a recognized device is used by a particular user? the client cert could be transferred and the resource could also be simply configured by another device, no? I guess you need to have full control over the client software (which is possible on mobile platforms) and use some onbording procedure when the user starts the client for the first time
  293. flow fwiw, TLS-PSK (Pre Shared Key) is also a thing, but other than that, I aggree with jonas’ that (TLS) certs become easy if you treat them like "private keys"
  294. flow although I am not sure if they provide than any advantage ofer a PSK
  295. clouded has left
  296. andrey.g has left
  297. pasdesushi has joined
  298. sonny has left
  299. harry837374884 has joined
  300. Sam has left
  301. Dele Olajide has joined
  302. sonny has joined
  303. konstantinos has joined
  304. Sam has joined
  305. pasdesushi has left
  306. pasdesushi has joined
  307. SteveF has left
  308. SteveF has joined
  309. jonas’ Guus, ah then the activation workflow makes sense
  310. Mikaela has left
  311. Mikaela has joined
  312. konstantinos has left
  313. nikhilmwarrier has joined
  314. Sam has left
  315. Sam has joined
  316. SteveF has left
  317. neshtaxmpp has joined
  318. Mikaela has left
  319. SteveF has joined
  320. Mikaela has joined
  321. Sam has left
  322. SteveF has left
  323. SteveF has joined
  324. SteveF has left
  325. SteveF has joined
  326. clouded has joined
  327. SteveF has left
  328. SteveF has joined
  329. SteveF has left
  330. SteveF has joined
  331. SteveF has left
  332. SteveF has joined
  333. Sam has joined
  334. SteveF has left
  335. SteveF has joined
  336. SteveF has left
  337. SteveF has joined
  338. Wojtek has joined
  339. adiaholic has left
  340. neshtaxmpp has left
  341. neshtaxmpp has joined
  342. konstantinos has joined
  343. Dele Olajide has left
  344. Dele Olajide has joined
  345. floretta has left
  346. Sam has left
  347. konstantinos has left
  348. Sam has joined
  349. pasdesushi has left
  350. stp has left
  351. L29Ah has joined
  352. pasdesushi has joined
  353. floretta has joined
  354. nuron has left
  355. marc0s has left
  356. marc0s has joined
  357. konstantinos has joined
  358. antranigv has left
  359. gooya has joined
  360. antranigv has joined
  361. antranigv has left
  362. nuron has joined
  363. adiaholic has joined
  364. Steve Kille has left
  365. Steve Kille has joined
  366. konstantinos has left
  367. antranigv has joined
  368. papatutuwawa has joined
  369. adiaholic has left
  370. jl4 has joined
  371. debacle has left
  372. adiaholic has joined
  373. antranigv has left
  374. antranigv has joined
  375. Dele Olajide has left
  376. Dele Olajide has joined
  377. adiaholic has left
  378. Steve Kille has left
  379. Dele Olajide has left
  380. Dele Olajide has joined
  381. Steve Kille has joined
  382. konstantinos has joined
  383. Dele Olajide has left
  384. Dele Olajide has joined
  385. Dele Olajide has left
  386. Dele Olajide has joined
  387. adiaholic has joined
  388. Dele Olajide has left
  389. Dele Olajide has joined
  390. antranigv has left
  391. Tim R has left
  392. Tim R has joined
  393. jl4 has left
  394. Tim R has left
  395. Tim R has joined
  396. neshtaxmpp has left
  397. neshtaxmpp has joined
  398. stp has joined
  399. adiaholic has left
  400. pasdesushi has left
  401. adiaholic has joined
  402. pasdesushi has joined
  403. adiaholic has left
  404. Steve Kille has left
  405. Tim R has left
  406. Kev has left
  407. Tim R has joined
  408. Kev has joined
  409. adiaholic has joined
  410. Kev has left
  411. Kev has joined
  412. Steve Kille has joined
  413. adiaholic has left
  414. Steve Kille has left
  415. Steve Kille has joined
  416. Dele Olajide has left
  417. karoshi has left
  418. Fishbowler has left
  419. Fishbowler has joined
  420. adiaholic has joined
  421. stp has left
  422. Tim R has left
  423. Tim R has joined
  424. karoshi has joined
  425. adiaholic has left
  426. adiaholic has joined
  427. adiaholic has left
  428. debacle has joined
  429. adiaholic has joined
  430. pasdesushi has left
  431. rebeld22 has joined
  432. Paganini has joined
  433. Dele Olajide has joined
  434. Dele Olajide has left
  435. Dele Olajide has joined
  436. adiaholic has left
  437. antranigv has joined
  438. pasdesushi has joined
  439. RayTutu has joined
  440. adiaholic has joined
  441. marc0s has left
  442. marc0s has joined
  443. marc0s has left
  444. marc0s has joined
  445. marc0s has left
  446. marc0s has joined
  447. adiaholic has left
  448. antranigv has left
  449. antranigv has joined
  450. adiaholic has joined
  451. neshtaxmpp has left
  452. neshtaxmpp has joined
  453. stp has joined
  454. antranigv has left
  455. antranigv has joined
  456. SteveF has left
  457. SteveF has joined
  458. SteveF has left
  459. SteveF has joined
  460. SteveF has left
  461. SteveF has joined
  462. marc0s has left
  463. marc0s has joined
  464. emus has left
  465. adiaholic has left
  466. adiaholic has joined
  467. marc0s has left
  468. marc0s has joined
  469. adiaholic has left
  470. papatutuwawa has left
  471. clouded has left
  472. clouded has joined
  473. antranigv has left
  474. antranigv has joined
  475. clouded has left
  476. clouded has joined
  477. adiaholic has joined
  478. moparisthebest smells of corporate security to me
  479. konstantinos has left
  480. moparisthebest and by that I mean they'll make it as user-hostile as possible for 0 benefit other than being able to check a box that says "secure"
  481. rebeld22 has left
  482. Calvin has joined
  483. antranigv has left
  484. Paganini has left
  485. Calvin has left
  486. papatutuwawa has joined
  487. antranigv has joined
  488. adiaholic has left
  489. adiaholic has joined
  490. konstantinos has joined
  491. Wojtek has left
  492. flow dunno, those specialized locked-down clients do not need to be user-hostile, in fact, the could be very user friendly
  493. flow wouldn't be surprised if Conversations would bring support for such a setup
  494. jonas’ I am looking forward to the day we have actual per-device credentials (be it TLS keys, or Device-key-SASL, or whatever)
  495. jonas’ of course, then without the limitation of one device per user
  496. MattJ Working on it :)
  497. Steve Kille has left
  498. Zash You can burn a full JID into the cert
  499. jonas’ (well, actually not "whatever". I strongly think it should be devicekey or TLS keys)
  500. Zash Vaguely related, how do I https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7250 ?
  501. intosi has left
  502. intosi has joined
  503. papatutuwawa has left
  504. konstantinos has left
  505. papatutuwawa has joined
  506. Dele Olajide has left
  507. mjk has left
  508. clouded has left
  509. mjk has joined
  510. konstantinos has joined
  511. clouded has joined
  512. RayTutu has left
  513. Dele Olajide has joined
  514. antranigv has left
  515. nikhilmwarrier has left
  516. pjn has joined
  517. papatutuwawa has left
  518. antranigv has joined
  519. papatutuwawa has joined
  520. raucao has left
  521. raucao has joined
  522. Wojtek has joined
  523. marc0s has left
  524. marc0s has joined
  525. neshtaxmpp has left
  526. neshtaxmpp has joined
  527. RayTutu has joined
  528. konstantinos has left
  529. pablo has joined
  530. lovetox has left
  531. lovetox has joined
  532. RayTutu has left
  533. thndrbvr has left
  534. APach has joined
  535. Dele Olajide has left
  536. Dele Olajide has joined
  537. marc0s has left
  538. marc0s has joined
  539. marc0s has left
  540. marc0s has joined
  541. andrew has left
  542. emus has joined
  543. andrew has joined
  544. sernick has joined
  545. konstantinos has joined
  546. APach has left
  547. Andrzej has joined
  548. Dele Olajide has left
  549. Alex has left
  550. Alex has joined
  551. Alex has left
  552. Alex has joined
  553. Steve Kille has joined
  554. rebeld22 has joined
  555. Paganini has joined
  556. Steve Kille has left
  557. Steve Kille has joined
  558. Dele Olajide has joined
  559. Alex has left
  560. Alex has joined
  561. L29Ah has left
  562. L29Ah has joined
  563. inky has left
  564. pjn has left
  565. pjn has joined
  566. Andrzej has left
  567. Andrzej has joined
  568. inky has joined
  569. neshtaxmpp has left
  570. neshtaxmpp has joined
  571. konstantinos has left
  572. konstantinos has joined
  573. ralphm has joined
  574. intosi has left
  575. intosi has joined
  576. pablo has left
  577. Steve Kille has left
  578. intosi has left
  579. intosi has joined
  580. debacle has left
  581. Tim R has left
  582. antranigv has left
  583. Steve Kille has joined
  584. krauq has left
  585. antranigv has joined
  586. konstantinos has left
  587. phoebos has joined
  588. krauq has joined
  589. APach has joined
  590. Andrzej has left
  591. Andrzej has joined
  592. raghavgururajan has joined
  593. intosi has left
  594. antranigv has left
  595. antranigv has joined
  596. intosi has joined
  597. konstantinos has joined
  598. debacle has joined
  599. wladmis has left
  600. wladmis has joined
  601. xnamed has left
  602. phoebos has left
  603. Andrzej has left
  604. stp has left
  605. Andrzej has joined
  606. thndrbvr has joined
  607. intosi has left
  608. krauq has left
  609. debacle has left
  610. SteveF has left
  611. Tobias has left
  612. Dele Olajide has left
  613. Tobias has joined
  614. intosi has joined
  615. adiaholic has left
  616. stp has joined
  617. antranigv has left
  618. Tim R has joined
  619. krauq has joined
  620. antranigv has joined
  621. Dele Olajide has joined
  622. Dele Olajide has left
  623. Andrzej has left
  624. antranigv has left
  625. antranigv has joined
  626. djorz has joined
  627. mdosch has left
  628. mdosch has joined
  629. marc0s has left
  630. marc0s has joined
  631. krauq has left
  632. raghavgururajan has left
  633. intosi has left
  634. konstantinos has left
  635. adiaholic has joined
  636. andrey.g has joined
  637. intosi has joined
  638. andrey.g has left
  639. floretta has left
  640. adiaholic has left
  641. Wojtek has left
  642. antranigv has left
  643. antranigv has joined
  644. mdosch has left
  645. krauq has joined
  646. mdosch has joined
  647. Andrzej has joined
  648. qy You know how clients like to skip entire bundles of XEPs to "keep their UI simple"? Maybe it'd be useful to have a standand UI or UI guidelines, so that doesn't have to be the case?
  649. neshtaxmpp has left
  650. neshtaxmpp has joined
  651. qy looking at conversations and dino particularly
  652. emus has left
  653. Seve https://matrix.org/blog/2022/05/30/welcoming-rocket-chat-to-matrix moparisthebest: already discussed this too?
  654. Zash qy, huh?
  655. Zash something something https://docs.modernxmpp.org/
  656. qy Zash: Gajim's rather feature complete, the other two are not, as i understand it primarily because they're UI-first and want to keep things "simple"/"easy to use" - so if there was a known UI form, that wouldnt be an excuse?
  657. adiaholic has joined
  658. qy > Zash wrote: > something something https://docs.modernxmpp.org/ ...oh
  659. intosi has left
  660. qy Well, 🚀 modernxmpp
  661. Zash Dino has video conferencing, your argument is invalid
  662. qy It doesn't have a disco browser :-)
  663. Zash Also, diversity and the freedom to try out different things is a strength here. All clients don't have to be the same.
  664. moparisthebest what features are you missing? all the stuff that has *terrible* UI like ad-hoc commands? :P
  665. qy Zash: But it is the biggest flaw of xmpp
  666. qy Well, it doesn't _have_ to have terrible ui if we figure out a nice one!
  667. moparisthebest has anyone ever used ad-hoc commands and thought "hmm that was a pleasent experience"
  668. Zash That's just, like, your opinion, man
  669. qy 😅
  670. moparisthebest usually more like "hmm why did the whole thing freeze" "oh no I clicked back and it crashed" "why didn't anything save"
  671. qy moparisthebest: I actually think as theyre done in gajim, pretty nice. I'll agree in profanity, not a great time, but im grateful theyre at least there...
  672. konstantinos has joined
  673. qy How else am i meant to configure biboumi :|
  674. qy Routinely have to operate 5 different clients to do everything i want smh
  675. antranigv has left
  676. Andrzej has left
  677. moparisthebest biboumi should be configurable over a bot-like interface
  678. Zash I'm sure the Soprani.ca folks are plenty interested in improving the experience with gateways etc
  679. moparisthebest they just went ahead and made everything configurable via talking to a bot, works very well
  680. konstantinos has left
  681. Andrzej has joined
  682. adiaholic has left
  683. adiaholic has joined
  684. floretta has joined
  685. qy Are we just anti adhoc being a thing then?
  686. qy What about disco?
  687. wgreenhouse ad hoc is useful because you can do input validation, and you can also format the output of commands
  688. Zash Who's this "we"?
  689. wgreenhouse soprani.ca folks are adding it to their conversations fork, for that reason
  690. wgreenhouse > Who's this "we"? modernxmpp and/or the authors of more recent gui clients
  691. marc0s has left
  692. marc0s has joined
  693. adiaholic has left
  694. qy wgreenhouse: I may switch to that fork, unless blabber adopts it too...
  695. wgreenhouse > has anyone ever used ad-hoc commands and thought "hmm that was a pleasent experience" moparisthebest: they work great for me in jabber.el :D
  696. qy Is it a prompt-based flow in j.el?
  697. marc0s has left
  698. marc0s has joined
  699. intosi has joined
  700. Tobias has left
  701. antranigv has joined
  702. Tobias has joined
  703. moparisthebest you can do input validation in a bot too
  704. marc0s has left
  705. marc0s has joined
  706. qy moparisthebest: Do you have something against ad-hoc in particular? Or just think it can't be implemented nicely?
  707. antranigv has left
  708. qy It is a stable xep, isn't it?
  709. moparisthebest just that it can't be implemented nicely and serves no purpose that a bot doesn't serve easier, imho
  710. qy Feels like IRC logic; everything as chat :p
  711. Zash never say never, but it takes effort on both client and server side to get the most out of it
  712. floretta has left
  713. qy yearns for xmpp nickserv
  714. floretta has joined
  715. Zash I think Gajim did an excellent job, but on the other hand I haven't touched adhoc in months. Configuring Biboumi is mostly a one-time thing.
  716. Zash Most available ad-hoc commands are server admin related, for which `prosodyctl shell` is just so much nicer and more powerful.
  717. wgreenhouse > Is it a prompt-based flow in j.el? qy: no, it's a new emacs buffer with fields, like M-x customize
  718. qy Oh excellent indeed
  719. kinetik has left
  720. wgreenhouse so you can actually keep chatting with that jid, it doesn't "steal" the buffer
  721. moparisthebest ha yes, I last touched biboumi config years ago (using gajim), and haven't needed ad-hoc for prosody in years either for what Zash mentioned
  722. qy For weechat i think i'm gonna have to copy profanity's model but make it a bit more prompt-based
  723. moparisthebest good luck keeping your infinitly configurable UI code concise and bug free :D
  724. antranigv has joined
  725. wgreenhouse there are beaucoup bugs, just not in ad hoc handling. :P
  726. Sam This is something I've been particularly interested in lately. I really thought that dataforms were the main problem and couldn't be used to create a nice UI, and while I still don't love them I have come around on their existance a bit.
  727. Sam However, the ad-hoc spec is just *really* hard to understand and implement properly for something that should be simple, so I still suspect that it ends up being horribly buggy not because of UI problems, but because of how it's written and explained.
  728. Zash Observation: You don't need dataforms for parameter-less ad-hoc commands.
  729. clouded has left
  730. Sam Sure, that's why I thought forms were the problem then I discovered that even for parameterless ones there were lots of bugs and issues for something that should have been trivially simple.
  731. jl4 has joined
  732. Alex has left
  733. Zash Also, I think you could replace dataforms with anything as payload carrier, tho that's probably more interesting for some RPC uses
  734. Sam So I'm really not sure about them now. I've come around a little bit, but kind of think the whole thing should be thrown out and re-written. Then again, we haven't had much success with that strategy in the past, even for things that didn't have a huge number of implementations.
  735. krauq has left
  736. xnamed has joined
  737. Zash Overly generic things are tricky.
  738. Zash Many things could probably be done with the simpler registration XEP (77?)
  739. Sam This is probably the underlying problem ⤴️
  740. wgreenhouse registration would make more sense for things like biboumi
  741. wgreenhouse since what most people are doing is setting nickserv stuff and maybe changing the hostname to connect to
  742. Tobias has left
  743. pep. > moparisthebest> has anyone ever used ad-hoc commands and thought "hmm that was a pleasent experience" Actually, yes. Poezio's UI here is ok. I get it's an "advanced feature" (handling generic adhoc forms) and I think that's why it's not in C nor Dino, not because it's "not pretty" or "not easily usable".
  744. Tobias has joined
  745. qy grumbles about being an advanced user
  746. clouded has joined
  747. antranigv has left
  748. Sam Same with Communiqué, I think, but it was *really* hard to figure out all the weird ad-hoc bugs, and I'm sure it's still probably not compatible with some implementations.
  749. antranigv has joined
  750. krauq has joined
  751. Tobias has left
  752. Tobias has joined
  753. djorz has left
  754. Tobias has left
  755. Tobias has joined
  756. Tim R has left
  757. adiaholic has joined
  758. marc0s has left
  759. marc0s has joined
  760. marc0s has left
  761. marc0s has joined
  762. marc0s has left
  763. marc0s has joined
  764. moparisthebest so you are writing a service, and debating on how best to let users configure it, your options are: 1. text bot, works with literally everything, including bridges, don't need to test anything else because there aren't differences in implementations 2. ad-hoc commands, works with a couple clients, you have to test them each because they each display things differently and have different bugs, and no other clients care to support them because of all of these problems
  765. moparisthebest but hey whatever floats your boat, as an advanced user I'd much rather just use text anyway, ad-hoc commands are more akin to the windows registry :P
  766. pasdesushi has left
  767. wgreenhouse ouch. fair enough, though
  768. adiaholic has left
  769. antranigv has left
  770. kinetik has joined
  771. Alex has joined
  772. qy ...you're using the windows registry as an example of good, modern design?
  773. antranigv has joined
  774. moparisthebest yes, as good and modern as ad-hoc commands :)
  775. qy Have I entered the twilight zone 😧
  776. intosi has left
  777. qy Anyway, i agree for now, thats why i was trying to think of how to get more clients to implement ad-hoc commands
  778. qy Because if only half the clients implement it, its not worth any of them doing it
  779. moparisthebest classic chicken and egg
  780. Andrzej has left
  781. qy But if you premake the egg, who needs a chicken
  782. antranigv has left
  783. qy Hence, modernxmpp ui and implementation guidelines for ad-hoc commands, so its nice&easy
  784. qy > here's a yolk i prepared earlier
  785. marc0s has left
  786. marc0s has joined
  787. pasdesushi has joined
  788. stp has left
  789. pep. moparisthebest: bot-as-interface reminds me of your position regarding 393 :p
  790. pep. And I completely understand why you like it, and you may understand why I would hate it
  791. Andrzej has joined
  792. moparisthebest you might notice a pattern here, 393 and bots are KISS, ad-hoc and choose-your-own-markup are not :D
  793. qy moparisthebest: I feel like you would really like IRC
  794. pep. moparisthebest: KISS, but for whom :)
  795. antranigv has joined
  796. pep. The receiving client can't have any specific UI for your gateway if the interface is a bot, there's no choice but to make a generic message-sending UI
  797. Titi has left
  798. adiaholic has joined
  799. pep. It's simple for client devs, maybe, not for users
  800. djorz has joined
  801. Andrzej has left
  802. Andrzej has joined
  803. bean has joined
  804. Andrzej has left
  805. adiaholic has left
  806. kinetik has left
  807. moparisthebest it's more simple for users
  808. moparisthebest "message X and have a conversation" vs "60 minutes of them nodding their heads while attempting to explain what an ad-hoc is"
  809. moparisthebest qy, I do like IRC :P just through XMPP
  810. Sam I had a nice little library I was working on that let you design ad-hoc command flows and then it would respond to them both with forms and with chat messages (and I think the sopranica folks have something similar). It's not an either/or situation, but I definitely think for normal users a UI would be preferred. Even as someone who doesn't really care one way or another, the UI is way easier in some situations.
  811. moparisthebest yea both sounds like a good option if it's easy enough
  812. Sam There are situations where you can't have both, of course. Mcabber responds to a few ad-hoc commands to allow you to eg. set its staus from another client. It's quite nice, but obviously if you sent a message to the JID you'd expect it to just be delivered as a normal message
  813. Andrzej has joined
  814. antranigv has left
  815. Mx2 has left
  816. Mx2 has joined
  817. neshtaxmpp has left
  818. neshtaxmpp has joined
  819. adiaholic has joined
  820. antranigv has joined
  821. wgreenhouse the case where the recipient is also an entity you can message with is an argument for ad hoc. like, biboumi's configuration uses ad hoc in part because the server JID is also what you chat with to send raw IRC commands
  822. wgreenhouse maybe 0077 is a way out, if it's simpler to implement
  823. adiaholic has left
  824. Andrzej has left
  825. Andrzej has joined
  826. debacle has joined
  827. xnamed has left
  828. adiaholic has joined
  829. pep. I think the fact that it's simpler to implement is a non-argument between all of these options. Yes adhoc takes a bit more to implement but It's not like it (or a -- nonexistent -- different intetface with similar goals) was exceptionally hard to implement either
  830. Sam Oh I disagree, ad-hoc was exceptionally hard to implement correctly.
  831. Sam The spec is incredibly confusing and often vague.
  832. Zash I'm thinking it's okay to reserve it for where the complexity is warranted.
  833. krauq has left
  834. pep. Sam: maybe the spec needs improving/redoing, but I don't think that the concept in itself is complex
  835. adiaholic has left
  836. Zash Clarifications of the specs are always welcome
  837. qy What part was hard to implement, ooi?
  838. qy I haven't tried yet, so curious
  839. floretta has left
  840. floretta has joined
  841. xnamed has joined
  842. intosi has joined
  843. Titi has joined
  844. krauq has joined
  845. lovetox If I remember correctly it's a bit confusing with the actions and default actions that are available in each stage
  846. lovetox And I think there was clarifications on that part
  847. moparisthebest if you all are like me, you read/implement a spec, find it annoying/confusing, vow to write clarifications for the next poor soul...
  848. lovetox Othr than that, I would say "exceptional hard" is a hyperbole
  849. adiaholic has joined
  850. moparisthebest then a couple months pass and you've memorized all the things you needed to know and forgot what you intended to write down...
  851. jonas’ Zash, to be fair, '77 has had its fair share of council/standards politics deadlock
  852. jonas’ there is that edge case I don't dare to remember
  853. Zash I've conveniently swapped out all of it to the point I didn't remember the number 🤷️
  854. jonas’ good.
  855. jonas’ sorry
  856. jonas’ I didn't mean '77 actually, I meant '50
  857. kinetik has joined
  858. adiaholic has left
  859. konstantinos has joined
  860. paul has joined
  861. sebastian has left
  862. adiaholic has joined
  863. playerthree has left
  864. playerthree has joined
  865. floretta has left
  866. floretta has joined
  867. intosi has left
  868. krauq has left
  869. kinetik has left
  870. Tim R has joined
  871. adiaholic has left
  872. marc0s has left
  873. marc0s has joined
  874. marc0s has left
  875. marc0s has joined
  876. petrescatraian has joined
  877. petrescatraian has left
  878. krauq has joined
  879. krauq has left
  880. adiaholic has joined
  881. floretta has left
  882. floretta has joined
  883. krauq has joined
  884. adiaholic has left
  885. neshtaxmpp has left
  886. neshtaxmpp has joined
  887. konstantinos has left
  888. adiaholic has joined
  889. emus has joined
  890. krauq has left
  891. Andrzej has left
  892. RayTutu has joined
  893. Andrzej has joined
  894. adiaholic has left
  895. RayTutu has left
  896. papatutuwawa has left
  897. RayTutu has joined
  898. RayTutu has left
  899. RayTutu has joined
  900. atomicwatch has left
  901. krauq has joined
  902. jcbrand has left
  903. Yagiza has left
  904. adiaholic has joined
  905. Tobias has left
  906. Andrzej has left
  907. Andrzej has joined
  908. adiaholic has left
  909. marc0s has left
  910. marc0s has joined
  911. marc0s has left
  912. marc0s has joined
  913. krauq has left
  914. intosi has joined
  915. wgreenhouse has left
  916. sebastian has joined
  917. Tim R has left
  918. krauq has joined
  919. adiaholic has joined
  920. wgreenhouse has joined
  921. jcbrand has joined
  922. Andrzej has left
  923. msavoritias has left
  924. Andrzej has joined
  925. adiaholic has left
  926. intosi has left
  927. Steve Kille has left
  928. krauq has left
  929. Steve Kille has joined
  930. Titi has left
  931. antranigv has left
  932. Andrzej has left
  933. phryk has joined
  934. Kev has left
  935. Andrzej has joined
  936. krauq has joined
  937. adiaholic has joined
  938. kinetik has joined
  939. adiaholic has left
  940. adiaholic has joined
  941. adiaholic has left
  942. neshtaxmpp has left
  943. bean has left
  944. neshtaxmpp has joined
  945. neshtaxmpp has left
  946. neshtaxmpp has joined
  947. lskdjf has left
  948. daags has left
  949. clouded has left
  950. goffi has left
  951. intosi has joined
  952. daags has joined
  953. clouded has joined
  954. kinetik has left
  955. RayTutu has left
  956. david has joined
  957. david has left
  958. marc0s has left
  959. marc0s has joined
  960. sebastian has left
  961. sebastian has joined
  962. debacle has left
  963. neshtaxmpp has left
  964. neshtaxmpp has joined
  965. intosi has left
  966. lskdjf has joined
  967. menel has left
  968. inky has left
  969. stp has joined
  970. antranigv has joined
  971. kinetik has joined
  972. adiaholic has joined
  973. lskdjf has left
  974. gooya has left
  975. floretta has left
  976. floretta has joined
  977. emus has left
  978. adiaholic has left
  979. paul has left
  980. paul has joined
  981. wgreenhouse has left
  982. sernick has left
  983. stp has left
  984. lovetox has left
  985. gooya has joined
  986. wgreenhouse has joined
  987. adiaholic has joined
  988. wurstsalat has left
  989. kinetik has left
  990. krauq has left
  991. wgreenhouse has left
  992. adiaholic has left
  993. lovetox has joined
  994. wgreenhouse has joined
  995. intosi has joined
  996. intosi has left
  997. intosi has joined
  998. krauq has joined
  999. neshtaxmpp has left
  1000. neshtaxmpp has joined
  1001. pjn has left
  1002. floretta has left
  1003. marc0s has left
  1004. marc0s has joined
  1005. gooya has left
  1006. karoshi has left
  1007. kinetik has joined
  1008. djorz has left
  1009. xnamed has left
  1010. intosi has left
  1011. Seve has left
  1012. neshtaxmpp has left
  1013. floretta has joined