GuusDoes MAM allow all MUC rooms (of a particular service) to be searched with one request?
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MattJNo
MattJWell, it doesn't explicitly not
MattJE.g. you could have a (virtual?) MAM archive on the MUC domain and query that
MattJBut that's not something called out in the XEP, only querying.individual MUCs
GuusOne of the projects that I'm on has a requirement to be able to search for particular message text across rooms. I'm thinking that the approach with MAM on a service (rather than a room) could be used for that, but I'm wondering if me holding a hammer makes everything look like a nail.
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MattJI'm not sure what would be more suitable... any alternative solution I can think of would look pretty much the same
GuusThanks. Good to know that I'm not overlooking something obvious. :)
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Ge0rGChecking the scope of the search regarding user permissions will be an interesting challenge
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MattJIndeed
MattJAlso those permissions may change over time, which changes the results, which isn't generally permitted for MAM queries
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Ge0rGNot even for searches?
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MattJMAM doesn't know/care about searches - it's just another filter field
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MattJ(the internet delivers: https://opensourceconnections.com/blog/2019/05/29/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-search/ )
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ZashPersistent storage of words was a mistake
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Guusthis is why I'm only storing 1's and 0's.
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singpolymaIf you only issue "fresh" mam queries it should be fine. But if you have an after key it may do weird things depending on what you want
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Ge0rGencrypt all relevant state into the after key.
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Zashtombstones?
Ge0rGtrombones!
singpolymaZash: tombstones doesn't help if a new room gets added
singpolymaBut yeah, having the list of rooms in the key could work
ZashMaybe, just maybe, generic MAM might not be suitable for "search all the rooms"
singpolymaFor search you probably just don't need an after key though? I guess if there are many results one might use it as a pagination hack
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singpolymaYeah. Back to the archive protocol it is ;)
ZashTechnology evolves in cycles?
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Ge0rGhash all the room names into a single hash, reject searches if the hash changed?
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singpolymaIt's like the pubsub -> PEP -> add all pubsub features to PEP
Zashhash all room state into some sort of chain of blocks?
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ZashOR we could rule all those problems to be "implementation details"
Ge0rGmost of XMPP is built on top of "implementation details"
Zashimplementation details all the way down
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TobiasOn the topic of MAM, I can see how one would fetch the next 40 messages after a certain ID or time. But how would you get the previous 40 messages before a certain ID or time? Using the flipped pages feature?
Zash`<before>a certain ID</before>`
HolgerYeah that's just '59.
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MattJTobias, flipped pages doesn't change the results that are returned
MattJIt just changes the order that the server sends you the results (which is either the most critical or useless feature, depending on whom you ask)
TobiasRight. But before and limiting results to 40 could also return the oldest 40 entries, not?
MattJFlipped pages does not do that, it just flips the page that gets returned
TobiasOk
HolgerTobias, no, can't return the oldest 50.
HolgerTobias, it returns the "page" immediately preceeding the specified ID.
MattJTo get the oldest 50 messages, you just make a simple request with no filters except max=50
TobiasOk. Thanks
Zashand `<before/>`
Zashotherwise you get the _first_ 50 messages
MattJThat's the same as the oldest 50 messages, which is what I thought the question was
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Zashargh
Zashmy brain
MattJI should update https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/mam-explorer/ for the latest version of the XEP
ZashVerily
TobiasRight. That also works if I use times via the end field and limiting the results with max?
MattJYes
ZashHow do you `<before/>` in that?
MattJ"Page before (id)"
ZashNo I mean literally `<before/>`
TobiasI basically want page before date because server does not do before yet
ZashSeems you can't set it to the magic empty element thing meaning "get me the last page"
edhelasMaybe it's time to introduce ASCII schemas in XEPs
MattJZash, ah, no
ZashIn fact, this thing doesn't behave correctly wrt before
MattJIndeed, I was hoping nobody would notice
MattJIt needs some love
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edhelasDon't we all ?
Ge0rGYes please
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Guusand chocolate.
Zashand coffee?
TobiasSo to limit my end query, i have to use start?
Guusdarn, that's a better one.
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MattJTobias, limit in what way?
MattJWhat are you trying to query for?
Tobiasthe 30 messages before some time
MattJBut the server doesn't support RSM?
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Tobiasit supports RSM, but just no before/after
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ZashSo it doesn't support RSM?
MattJHeh
MattJIs there much more to RSM? Just the max/count?
MattJYou need https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm45497150480480
Tobiasah..ta...maybe that <before> will work
Tobiaswas referring to the form fields
MattJOtherwise you'll get the first (oldest) matching results, but if you add <before/> you get the most recent
MattJYou don't need the form fields
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Tobiasta
Tobiaswill try that :)
MattJSo the server does support <before>id</before>?
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MattJIf so, you should be paging using that instead, otherwise you may get inaccurate results
MattJe.g. if you had >50 messages with the same timestamp
Zashinb4 accidentally implements MAM querying in CSS selectors
ZashDoes '59 spell out that only one of `<after>` and `<before>` is allowed at the same time?
MattJNo, unfortunately
ZashAnd mam-explorer allows it! Unacceptable!
MattJ:)
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TobiasSo is using the after form field the same as using the after field in the <set> node of RSM in the query?
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MattJGenerally, yes. My advice is to ignore the form fields (which are only in the latest MAM version). Most of the time you don't need them, and you should just use RSM for paging.
MattJThe form fields are meant for when you need to select a range of messages between two ids
MattJWhich some clients need for particular sync strategies
ZashMeaning the before-id and after-id fields?
MattJYes
Zash(as opposed to the whole form)
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MattJIn case anyone cares, https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/mam-explorer/ is now more correct in its results (thanks to some help from Zash)
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arcQuestion is, will we have a board meeting today?
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MattJSo many possible witty responses, but I'll stick to: "Hopefully"
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MattJI just saw your email, and saying we haven't had one for a couple of weeks is an understatement I think. Not sure when the last meeting was, but it's been a while I think.
arcYea.
arcWell hopefully we can at least get quorum this morning because right now..
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arcAnd yet, it fails to move.
Zashwho else is board? ralphm ?
arcWe haven't seen him in weeks
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jcbrandI though we agreed we'll communicate via email
Ge0rGwhat't the best way to add work to the Board's agenda?
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jcbrandEmail the board list
MattJNo, that's not a good way, mail from non-members gets stuck in a queue
MattJGe0rG: what's the work?
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Ge0rGMattJ: I'd like to get going an analysis of the EU's new Digital Markets Act and Digital Services Act, and what they mean for XMPP service operators
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moparisthebestIsn't that the "XMPP servers are illegal" law?
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singpolymaOnly if they're big ;)
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ZashSo we're all required by law to run Snikket ?
singpolymaOnly people trapped in the EU I think
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arcjcbrand: wasn't an agreement, just a proposal. It's never been discussed, and I think this is a fairly clear reason why we shouldn't
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jcbrandWhat is a fairly clear reason?
jcbrand> No, that's not a good way, mail from non-members gets stuck in a queue
Ge0rG is a member and we have received other email from a member recently that was discussed. I think it's better than this chat.
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MattJSorry, I mean a member of the mailing list, not a member of the XSF
jcbrandBut we received an email from someone not on the board, we're they a board member before?
MattJFor historical reasons, board@ is a private list (if we could go back in time, it would probably be more open, and we would have a board-private@ for private discussions)
MattJIt's current board members + council chair (+ Peter?)
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MattJIt's also possible that the mail you're thinking of was manually approved
MattJBut that queue is not routinely checked, I think Peter just does it now and again
MattJThe official contact address for the XSF is info@
jcbrandOk, can we direct people to that email address in order to contact the board?
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MattJSure, it goes to Ralph, me and Peter, and we can bounce it to board@ if needed (a lot of noise goes there)
moparisthebestI'm not sure the EU law only bans "big" XMPP servers, it's "users" right? and if you have federation enabled, technically every XMPP account with federation could be counted as a "user" ?
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MattJ"technically" / "could"
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moparisthebestso I think you have to assume it bans XMPP, unless you are willing to go to court over it
ZashNon-lawyers speculating much?
MattJThe law isn't technical, and nobody is going to consider XMPP as a single entity with N(all users across all servers) users
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MattJmoparisthebest, why do you think it "bans XMPP"?
moparisthebestthis is the one that requires any service provider to scan all messages and report anything bad to the govt right? the "mandatory scanning+reporting" law?
MattJNo, that's something different
MattJand that definitely doesn't ban XMPP
MattJIt doesn't ban anything, and nobody really has to do anything by default. To get things started, they have to issue a specific provider with a "detection order", and that's when you have to comply with their scanning requirements.
moparisthebestseems to me like it does but who knows, only someone willing to take it to court I assume
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singpolyma> so I think you have to assume it bans XMPP, unless you are willing to go to court over it
Usually laws work the opposite of that :) assume you're fine until a judge rules on a similar enough situation
moparisthebestonly if you are willing to risk being the one being ruled on
ZashI'm just going to assume that the EU makes things difficult for US megacorporations and carry on with my life.
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singpolymaYou risk being rules on for some law you didn't know about or didn't understand just by existing
singpolymaBeing afraid of hypothetical legal situations is far too paralyzing to be practical
ZashThat's what software patents is for
ZashNot laws 😛
MattJThey are indeed targeting the US megacorps, no doubt about that (especially trying to block Facebook Messenger E2EE)
singpolymaZash: well, EU is also well known to making laws to kill community projects, like GDPR, but those are known situations not hypotheticals like this
MattJDoesn't mean they'll never extend it beyond that (once they have the tool, they'll use it), but I don't think we need to make drama like "XMPP is banned" when it's nowhere near true
ZashCommunity projects? Thought you had to be a company of a certain size for it to really apply.
singpolymaZash: not for the deletion requests stuff for example
singpolymaWhich has killed many small projects
ZashI've heard of zero such events.
singpolymaSmall search crawlers, the entire OpenPGP keyserver presence in Europe, etc
moparisthebestI agree they think they are narrowly targetting the US megacorps but in practice are just dragnet affecting everything
moparisthebestI mean to them XMPP as a concept doesn't even exist
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Alexits meeting time, lets start in 2 minutes
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ZashThat time of the quarter again
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Alexbangs the gavel
Alexhere is our Agenda for today:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-06-09
Alex1) Call for Quorum
Alexas you can see 35 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
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Alex2) Items Subject to a Vote
AlexNew and Returning members., you can see the appliction page here:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q2_2022
Alex3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
Alexanyone here who was not voted yet and wants to do so now? Memberbot is still online for accepting your votes
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Alexlooks like nobody wants to vote in the meeting. Then I will shutdown the bot and start working on the results
Alex4) Announcement of Voting Results
Zash🥁️
Alexwhen you reload the page you can see the results here:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-06-09#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
Alexall reappliers are accepted. congrats to everyone
ZashCongrats to all
Alex5) Any Other Business?
Alexlooks like there is none
Alex6) Formal Adjournment
AlexI motion that we adjourn
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Guus2nd
Alexbangs the gavel
Alexthanks everone
GuusAs always, thank you Alex!
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AlexI will work on sending out the minute sand updating websites and lists on the minutes over the weekend. Because I am travelling tomorrow, so be patient ;-)
ZashThanks Alex!
moparisthebestthanks Alex !
jcbrandDanke Alex
MattJThanks Alex, and congratulations all :)
MattJ> but in practice are just dragnet affecting everything
FWIW this is completely the opposite of what they are actually doing. As I said, they have to serve a specific organization with a specific order, that's not what a dragnet or blanket ban is.
MattJAn XMPP operator could totally be subject to such an order, but XMPP as a protocol cannot be
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MattJand this is all unrelated to the Digital Markets Act, which was the original question from Ge0rG. Which I'm also pretty sure has no impact on any current community XMPP operator (so I'm not sure if there was a specific concern that I might have missed?)
moparisthebestwe might be talking about different bills
moparisthebestthis one https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcontrol/
MattJThat's the one
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MattJUnderstand that certain people who oppose the regulations also put a certain spin on it. Practically nothing you read on the topic is neutral. Even the legislation is hand-wavy in parts (e.g. to avoid everyone cooking up their own tech, and/or using that as an excuse, they are going to provide the scanning tech to anyone who is subject to a detection order - but this tech hasn't been put together yet)
msavoritiasYep same as the myth of GDPR killing small businesses for some reason
Ge0rGLast time I heard about those regulations it was mentioned that there is no small operator exemption
MattJYeah, PGP keyservers were dead long before GDPR, that much I'm certain of :)
MattJGe0rG, DMA or "Chat Control"?
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Ge0rGMattJ: not sure if DMA or DSA
Ge0rGChat Control is another horror
MattJI haven't done as much research into the DSA yet, I guess that's next on my list then
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Ge0rGIt would be good to have some analysis and maybe at least a non authoritative statement on the blog
Ge0rGNormally I'd volunteer for this kind of boring legal work, but I'm way too much overloaded
ZashCan you volunteer someone else who's qualified?
singpolyma> Yeah, PGP keyservers were dead long before GDPR, that much I'm certain of :)
They're still not dead yet, but most of the small ones in EU are. Plenty out here I still use regularly
ZashI thought the system got flooded by garbage signatures and collapsed on itself