XSF Discussion - 2022-06-09

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  241. Guus Does MAM allow all MUC rooms (of a particular service) to be searched with one request?
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  251. MattJ No
  252. MattJ Well, it doesn't explicitly not
  253. MattJ E.g. you could have a (virtual?) MAM archive on the MUC domain and query that
  254. MattJ But that's not something called out in the XEP, only querying.individual MUCs
  255. Guus One of the projects that I'm on has a requirement to be able to search for particular message text across rooms. I'm thinking that the approach with MAM on a service (rather than a room) could be used for that, but I'm wondering if me holding a hammer makes everything look like a nail.
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  261. MattJ I'm not sure what would be more suitable... any alternative solution I can think of would look pretty much the same
  262. Guus Thanks. Good to know that I'm not overlooking something obvious. :)
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  319. Ge0rG Checking the scope of the search regarding user permissions will be an interesting challenge
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  321. MattJ Indeed
  322. MattJ Also those permissions may change over time, which changes the results, which isn't generally permitted for MAM queries
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  324. Ge0rG Not even for searches?
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  327. MattJ MAM doesn't know/care about searches - it's just another filter field
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  352. MattJ (the internet delivers: https://opensourceconnections.com/blog/2019/05/29/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-search/ )
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  356. Zash Persistent storage of words was a mistake
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  425. Guus this is why I'm only storing 1's and 0's.
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  430. singpolyma If you only issue "fresh" mam queries it should be fine. But if you have an after key it may do weird things depending on what you want
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  432. Ge0rG encrypt all relevant state into the after key.
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  434. Zash tombstones?
  435. Ge0rG trombones!
  436. singpolyma Zash: tombstones doesn't help if a new room gets added
  437. singpolyma But yeah, having the list of rooms in the key could work
  438. Zash Maybe, just maybe, generic MAM might not be suitable for "search all the rooms"
  439. singpolyma For search you probably just don't need an after key though? I guess if there are many results one might use it as a pagination hack
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  441. singpolyma Yeah. Back to the archive protocol it is ;)
  442. Zash Technology evolves in cycles?
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  444. Ge0rG hash all the room names into a single hash, reject searches if the hash changed?
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  446. singpolyma It's like the pubsub -> PEP -> add all pubsub features to PEP
  447. Zash hash all room state into some sort of chain of blocks?
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  449. Zash OR we could rule all those problems to be "implementation details"
  450. Ge0rG most of XMPP is built on top of "implementation details"
  451. Zash implementation details all the way down
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  475. Tobias On the topic of MAM, I can see how one would fetch the next 40 messages after a certain ID or time. But how would you get the previous 40 messages before a certain ID or time? Using the flipped pages feature?
  476. Zash `<before>a certain ID</before>`
  477. Holger Yeah that's just '59.
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  480. MattJ Tobias, flipped pages doesn't change the results that are returned
  481. MattJ It just changes the order that the server sends you the results (which is either the most critical or useless feature, depending on whom you ask)
  482. Tobias Right. But before and limiting results to 40 could also return the oldest 40 entries, not?
  483. MattJ Flipped pages does not do that, it just flips the page that gets returned
  484. Tobias Ok
  485. Holger Tobias, no, can't return the oldest 50.
  486. Holger Tobias, it returns the "page" immediately preceeding the specified ID.
  487. MattJ To get the oldest 50 messages, you just make a simple request with no filters except max=50
  488. Tobias Ok. Thanks
  489. Zash and `<before/>`
  490. Zash otherwise you get the _first_ 50 messages
  491. MattJ That's the same as the oldest 50 messages, which is what I thought the question was
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  493. Zash argh
  494. Zash my brain
  495. MattJ I should update https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/mam-explorer/ for the latest version of the XEP
  496. Zash Verily
  497. Tobias Right. That also works if I use times via the end field and limiting the results with max?
  498. MattJ Yes
  499. Zash How do you `<before/>` in that?
  500. MattJ "Page before (id)"
  501. Zash No I mean literally `<before/>`
  502. Tobias I basically want page before date because server does not do before yet
  503. Zash Seems you can't set it to the magic empty element thing meaning "get me the last page"
  504. edhelas Maybe it's time to introduce ASCII schemas in XEPs
  505. MattJ Zash, ah, no
  506. Zash In fact, this thing doesn't behave correctly wrt before
  507. MattJ Indeed, I was hoping nobody would notice
  508. MattJ It needs some love
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  510. edhelas Don't we all ?
  511. Ge0rG Yes please
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  516. Guus and chocolate.
  517. Zash and coffee?
  518. Tobias So to limit my end query, i have to use start?
  519. Guus darn, that's a better one.
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  536. MattJ Tobias, limit in what way?
  537. MattJ What are you trying to query for?
  538. Tobias the 30 messages before some time
  539. MattJ But the server doesn't support RSM?
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  541. Tobias it supports RSM, but just no before/after
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  543. Zash So it doesn't support RSM?
  544. MattJ Heh
  545. MattJ Is there much more to RSM? Just the max/count?
  546. MattJ You need https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#sect-idm45497150480480
  547. Tobias ah..ta...maybe that <before> will work
  548. Tobias was referring to the form fields
  549. MattJ Otherwise you'll get the first (oldest) matching results, but if you add <before/> you get the most recent
  550. MattJ You don't need the form fields
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  553. Tobias ta
  554. Tobias will try that :)
  555. MattJ So the server does support <before>id</before>?
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  558. MattJ If so, you should be paging using that instead, otherwise you may get inaccurate results
  559. MattJ e.g. if you had >50 messages with the same timestamp
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  561. Zash https://cerdale.zash.se/s/uM73sc1wTK4eDxCB8TgpWEk4/mam-explorer.patch
  562. Zash MattJ, suggestion ^
  563. MattJ Applied locally, thanks
  564. MattJ Was just looking to see if there was any low-hanging fruit
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  566. MattJ elseif query["before"] and (have_seen[query["before"]] or msg.id == query["before"]) then
  567. MattJ Looks like I (mistakenly?) did that on purpose
  568. MattJ Oh wait, selected = false, what
  569. Zash Hmmm... ```html <input id="mam-page-param-id" list="mam-ids"> <datalist id="mam-ids"> <option>a</option> <option>b</option> etc... </datalist> ```
  570. Zash inb4 accidentally implements MAM querying in CSS selectors
  571. Zash Does '59 spell out that only one of `<after>` and `<before>` is allowed at the same time?
  572. MattJ No, unfortunately
  573. Zash And mam-explorer allows it! Unacceptable!
  574. MattJ :)
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  577. Tobias So is using the after form field the same as using the after field in the <set> node of RSM in the query?
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  592. MattJ Generally, yes. My advice is to ignore the form fields (which are only in the latest MAM version). Most of the time you don't need them, and you should just use RSM for paging.
  593. MattJ The form fields are meant for when you need to select a range of messages between two ids
  594. MattJ Which some clients need for particular sync strategies
  595. Zash Meaning the before-id and after-id fields?
  596. MattJ Yes
  597. Zash (as opposed to the whole form)
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  628. MattJ In case anyone cares, https://matthewwild.co.uk/uploads/mam-explorer/ is now more correct in its results (thanks to some help from Zash)
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  635. arc Question is, will we have a board meeting today?
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  639. MattJ So many possible witty responses, but I'll stick to: "Hopefully"
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  641. MattJ I just saw your email, and saying we haven't had one for a couple of weeks is an understatement I think. Not sure when the last meeting was, but it's been a while I think.
  642. arc Yea.
  643. arc Well hopefully we can at least get quorum this morning because right now..
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  648. arc And yet, it fails to move.
  649. Zash who else is board? ralphm ?
  650. arc We haven't seen him in weeks
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  668. jcbrand I though we agreed we'll communicate via email
  669. Ge0rG what't the best way to add work to the Board's agenda?
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  677. jcbrand Email the board list
  678. MattJ No, that's not a good way, mail from non-members gets stuck in a queue
  679. MattJ Ge0rG: what's the work?
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  684. Ge0rG MattJ: I'd like to get going an analysis of the EU's new Digital Markets Act and Digital Services Act, and what they mean for XMPP service operators
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  719. moparisthebest Isn't that the "XMPP servers are illegal" law?
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  721. singpolyma Only if they're big ;)
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  726. Zash So we're all required by law to run Snikket ?
  727. singpolyma Only people trapped in the EU I think
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  739. arc jcbrand: wasn't an agreement, just a proposal. It's never been discussed, and I think this is a fairly clear reason why we shouldn't
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  791. jcbrand What is a fairly clear reason?
  792. jcbrand > No, that's not a good way, mail from non-members gets stuck in a queue Ge0rG is a member and we have received other email from a member recently that was discussed. I think it's better than this chat.
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  798. MattJ Sorry, I mean a member of the mailing list, not a member of the XSF
  799. jcbrand But we received an email from someone not on the board, we're they a board member before?
  800. MattJ For historical reasons, board@ is a private list (if we could go back in time, it would probably be more open, and we would have a board-private@ for private discussions)
  801. MattJ It's current board members + council chair (+ Peter?)
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  803. MattJ It's also possible that the mail you're thinking of was manually approved
  804. MattJ But that queue is not routinely checked, I think Peter just does it now and again
  805. MattJ The official contact address for the XSF is info@
  806. jcbrand Ok, can we direct people to that email address in order to contact the board?
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  809. MattJ Sure, it goes to Ralph, me and Peter, and we can bounce it to board@ if needed (a lot of noise goes there)
  810. moparisthebest I'm not sure the EU law only bans "big" XMPP servers, it's "users" right? and if you have federation enabled, technically every XMPP account with federation could be counted as a "user" ?
  811. krauq has joined
  812. MattJ "technically" / "could"
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  814. moparisthebest so I think you have to assume it bans XMPP, unless you are willing to go to court over it
  815. Zash Non-lawyers speculating much?
  816. MattJ The law isn't technical, and nobody is going to consider XMPP as a single entity with N(all users across all servers) users
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  818. MattJ moparisthebest, why do you think it "bans XMPP"?
  819. moparisthebest this is the one that requires any service provider to scan all messages and report anything bad to the govt right? the "mandatory scanning+reporting" law?
  820. MattJ No, that's something different
  821. MattJ and that definitely doesn't ban XMPP
  822. MattJ It doesn't ban anything, and nobody really has to do anything by default. To get things started, they have to issue a specific provider with a "detection order", and that's when you have to comply with their scanning requirements.
  823. moparisthebest seems to me like it does but who knows, only someone willing to take it to court I assume
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  826. singpolyma > so I think you have to assume it bans XMPP, unless you are willing to go to court over it Usually laws work the opposite of that :) assume you're fine until a judge rules on a similar enough situation
  827. moparisthebest only if you are willing to risk being the one being ruled on
  828. Zash I'm just going to assume that the EU makes things difficult for US megacorporations and carry on with my life.
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  830. singpolyma You risk being rules on for some law you didn't know about or didn't understand just by existing
  831. singpolyma Being afraid of hypothetical legal situations is far too paralyzing to be practical
  832. Zash That's what software patents is for
  833. Zash Not laws 😛
  834. MattJ They are indeed targeting the US megacorps, no doubt about that (especially trying to block Facebook Messenger E2EE)
  835. singpolyma Zash: well, EU is also well known to making laws to kill community projects, like GDPR, but those are known situations not hypotheticals like this
  836. MattJ Doesn't mean they'll never extend it beyond that (once they have the tool, they'll use it), but I don't think we need to make drama like "XMPP is banned" when it's nowhere near true
  837. Zash Community projects? Thought you had to be a company of a certain size for it to really apply.
  838. singpolyma Zash: not for the deletion requests stuff for example
  839. singpolyma Which has killed many small projects
  840. Zash I've heard of zero such events.
  841. singpolyma Small search crawlers, the entire OpenPGP keyserver presence in Europe, etc
  842. moparisthebest I agree they think they are narrowly targetting the US megacorps but in practice are just dragnet affecting everything
  843. moparisthebest I mean to them XMPP as a concept doesn't even exist
  844. Tim R has joined
  845. Alex its meeting time, lets start in 2 minutes
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  847. Zash That time of the quarter again
  848. Tim R has left
  849. Alex bangs the gavel
  850. Alex here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-06-09
  851. Alex 1) Call for Quorum
  852. Alex as you can see 35 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
  853. BASSGOD has joined
  854. Alex 2) Items Subject to a Vote
  855. Alex New and Returning members., you can see the appliction page here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q2_2022
  856. Alex 3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
  857. Alex anyone here who was not voted yet and wants to do so now? Memberbot is still online for accepting your votes
  858. xnamed has left
  859. Alex looks like nobody wants to vote in the meeting. Then I will shutdown the bot and start working on the results
  860. Alex 4) Announcement of Voting Results
  861. Zash 🥁️
  862. Alex when you reload the page you can see the results here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2022-06-09#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
  863. Alex all reappliers are accepted. congrats to everyone
  864. Zash Congrats to all
  865. Alex 5) Any Other Business?
  866. Alex looks like there is none
  867. Alex 6) Formal Adjournment
  868. Alex I motion that we adjourn
  869. xnamed has joined
  870. Guus 2nd
  871. Alex bangs the gavel
  872. Alex thanks everone
  873. Guus As always, thank you Alex!
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  875. Alex I will work on sending out the minute sand updating websites and lists on the minutes over the weekend. Because I am travelling tomorrow, so be patient ;-)
  876. Zash Thanks Alex!
  877. moparisthebest thanks Alex !
  878. jcbrand Danke Alex
  879. MattJ Thanks Alex, and congratulations all :)
  880. MattJ > but in practice are just dragnet affecting everything FWIW this is completely the opposite of what they are actually doing. As I said, they have to serve a specific organization with a specific order, that's not what a dragnet or blanket ban is.
  881. MattJ An XMPP operator could totally be subject to such an order, but XMPP as a protocol cannot be
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  886. MattJ and this is all unrelated to the Digital Markets Act, which was the original question from Ge0rG. Which I'm also pretty sure has no impact on any current community XMPP operator (so I'm not sure if there was a specific concern that I might have missed?)
  887. moparisthebest we might be talking about different bills
  888. moparisthebest this one https://european-pirateparty.eu/parliament-approves-chatcontrol/
  889. MattJ That's the one
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  894. MattJ Understand that certain people who oppose the regulations also put a certain spin on it. Practically nothing you read on the topic is neutral. Even the legislation is hand-wavy in parts (e.g. to avoid everyone cooking up their own tech, and/or using that as an excuse, they are going to provide the scanning tech to anyone who is subject to a detection order - but this tech hasn't been put together yet)
  895. msavoritias Yep same as the myth of GDPR killing small businesses for some reason
  896. Ge0rG Last time I heard about those regulations it was mentioned that there is no small operator exemption
  897. MattJ Yeah, PGP keyservers were dead long before GDPR, that much I'm certain of :)
  898. MattJ Ge0rG, DMA or "Chat Control"?
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  901. Ge0rG MattJ: not sure if DMA or DSA
  902. Ge0rG Chat Control is another horror
  903. MattJ I haven't done as much research into the DSA yet, I guess that's next on my list then
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  905. Ge0rG It would be good to have some analysis and maybe at least a non authoritative statement on the blog
  906. Ge0rG Normally I'd volunteer for this kind of boring legal work, but I'm way too much overloaded
  907. Zash Can you volunteer someone else who's qualified?
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  933. singpolyma > Yeah, PGP keyservers were dead long before GDPR, that much I'm certain of :) They're still not dead yet, but most of the small ones in EU are. Plenty out here I still use regularly
  934. Zash I thought the system got flooded by garbage signatures and collapsed on itself
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  956. Zash Reject key servers, embrace DANE! https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7929
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  969. MattJ Yeah, gpg has not pulled signatures from keyservers by default for a long time due to flooding issues
  970. Zash grumbles because DANE isn't enabled by default, instead it goes for webkeysomething
  971. Sam has joined
  972. MattJ WKD is actually usable for most people, unlike DANE :)
  973. Zash but WEB 😭️
  974. Zash also, defaults
  975. MattJ DANE-over-HTTPS
  976. Zash only acceptable if it's HTTPS-over-XMPP
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  991. singpolyma Pretty sure DANE works fine for basically everyone? Browsers don't support it, but that's not relevant in this context
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  994. MattJ Tell that to anyone with a .im domain
  995. singpolyma Oh, you mean from that side. Sure. Don't buy those ;)
  996. singpolyma Most TLDs are fine
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  1001. Zash snikket.chat in dnskey when? 😉
  1002. singpolyma MattJ tells me soon ish ;)
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