XSF Discussion - 2022-07-07


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  354. jcbrand Interesting, the list admin is someone from Wire
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  361. Zash https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bofreq-mahy-mimi-more-im-interop/ more words
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  367. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Does the second link means that xmpp would have to adopt MLS for groups? It sounds like a good idea since OMEMO doesnt scale that well
  368. Zash Means some folks want to discuss starting a working group to discuss that.
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  371. emus dwd: ? ^
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  373. emus I subscribed
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  387. jcbrand I look forward to those folks writing the code as well
  388. Zash Rough code and running consensus is still the thing, eh?
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  391. jcbrand It's better than endless discussions
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  402. emus Well, I wouldn't say its an endless discussion
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  411. jcbrand No, me neither 😇
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  441. emus yet 😛
  442. emus but apart from, this, maybe it would make more sense to have our say and come up with what opportunities we have
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  454. edhelas I'd like to know if you guys have some feedbacks regarding my (small) XEP proposal, Bookmark Pinning https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1182
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  457. MattJ SGTM, it makes it easier to move in the direction of bookmarks as a synchronization method for joined rooms instead of only those that the user has selected to bookmark
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  466. Kev 1) It's insane that we have to have a spec to bookmark bookmarks because bookmarks are used for something other than bookmarking. But that's just cosmetic and of no real consequence. 2) We need this 3) extending bookmarks means that naive clients are possibly going to overwrite the extension, but maybe that's fine. 4) We need this
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  469. pep. 3 should be covered by the spec, baring any bugs, as usual
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  471. Kev Maybe I missed it. How's it covered by the spec?
  472. Link Mauve Kev, re 3), the <extensions/> element is required to be left alone by every supporting client, this warranted a namespace bump.
  473. Kev Oh, wait, this is bookmarks:1, obviously.
  474. Kev Yes, I'm being an idiot.
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  477. Link Mauve The best kind of idiot, who brings useful criticism. :)
  478. Link Mauve Kev, 0402 can still be renamed “MUC join synchronisation” or something like that.
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  481. Link Mauve I’ve heard about some proprietary chat applications using the term “bookmark” to mark messages in the history of a single chat or room.
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  484. pep. Well yeah the term isn't proper to MUC
  485. Link Mauve It actually is, as currently defined in our specifications.
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  487. pep. Sure, I mean in general
  488. Link Mauve But many clients did away with that term to describe the rooms to rejoin on launch.
  489. Link Mauve Which I think is a neat direction for user-friendliness.
  490. MattJ +1
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  493. Link Mauve edhelas, a small feedback I have, from a bunch of users who requested that, is to keep a given ordering.
  494. Link Mauve It could be implemented with an integer defining a partial ordering.
  495. edhelas Like we used to have priorité in resources :p ?
  496. edhelas *priorities
  497. Link Mauve No, like we used to have a non-moving ordering of open tabs.
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  499. Link Mauve Instead of the current way of open chats being reordered by last activity, which bothers many people around me.
  500. edhelas And how would you solve concurrency regarding the integer order ?
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  503. Link Mauve Concurrency is a mess with PubSub anyway, you can just ignore it for now (and forever) I guess.
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  509. edhelas Ok Movim is already implementing the Bookmark Pinning thing (with its own namespace) for those that wants to try
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  511. edhelas https://upload.movim.eu/files/9d94237298995552fa13436420195fbca436dce7/GIA6EJ1pduoJ/image.png
  512. edhelas Looks like this
  513. edhelas And the pinned room are kept on top of the list
  514. MattJ Question though: can you pin 1:1 chats?
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  516. edhelas Can you bookmark 1:1 chats ?
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  520. edhelas (and in Movim no)
  521. MattJ Conversations supports pinning conversations of any type
  522. MattJ Obviously that's not synchronized currently, but if it adopted this XEP it would be weird if only MUCs were synchronized
  523. edhelas 0402 is only about MUC ?
  524. MattJ Supposedly, yes
  525. edhelas <conference xmlns='urn:xmpp:bookmarks:1'/>
  526. Sam Generally speaking (though I doubt we can/want to rewrite the world, but it's worth mentioning) it's weird to me that we have two different concepts of a roster that are basically identical and need duplicate functionality re-written for both (the actual roster and the bookmarks list).
  527. edhelas Maybe we should release a <bookmark xmlns='urn:xmpp:bookmarks:2'/> ?
  528. edhelas Sam +1
  529. MattJ That's something MIX actually does improve
  530. Sam They end up with divergent feature sets while requiring that developers basically rewrite the same functionality for both. Pretty much the worst developer experience.
  531. edhelas Sam do you have a proposal to solve that ?
  532. Sam We probably can't (or shouldn't). It's just worth keeping in mind as we add new functionality.
  533. edhelas Roster is about presences also, bookmarks is not
  534. Sam See also the wide adoption of MIX and other rewrite the world protocols.
  535. edhelas Sam +1
  536. edhelas Basically my though was "hey we have a fresh bookmark XEP, oh there is extensions, lets add a first extension :p"
  537. edhelas But maybe we can generalize bookmarks to any kind of uris, like 1:1 chats or even Pubsub nodes (wild !)
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  542. singpolyma I wouldn't say "can't" we could have a new namespace element that can be put in roster. But since roster is so fundamental and bookmark already exists probably more trouble than it's worth
  543. singpolyma Plus with vcard4 we now have a xep to put a bunch of roster stuff in pubsub too ;)
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  548. Link Mauve Sam, for developers it’s at the library level that a common interface could be exposed.
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  572. pep. > But maybe we can generalize bookmarks to any kind of uris, like 1:1 chats or even Pubsub nodes (wild !) Yes please
  573. pep. #LetBookmarksBeBookmarks
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  575. pep. And make synchronization an extension?
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  679. moparisthebest > At the time, different groups within IETF proposed separate protocol suites (SIMPLE, APEX, and XMPP) because the community could not come to consensus on a single protocol
  680. moparisthebest Lol, well seems like the community eventually did arrive at a consensus though
  681. MattJ HTTP
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  691. moparisthebest I've never even heard of APEX
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  693. Zash But, HTTP/0.9 or HTTP/1.0 or HTTP/1.1 or HTTP/2 or HTTP/3 ?
  694. moparisthebest Uh oh it doesn't seem like Wikipedia knows about the APEX protocol
  695. Zash Search terms "ietf apex protocol" got me https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/apex/about/
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  697. moparisthebest Yea https://duckduckgo.com/?q=apex+protocol is not what I expected either lol
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  701. moparisthebest I guess that's an advantage for XMPP, the term isn't reused for a thousand unrelated things like simple, apex, and matrix
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  703. Zash So that apex wg has some RFCs published in 2002. IIRC the XMPP WG got started around that time.
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  705. Zash > APEX is specified, in part, as a BEEP [1] "profile". I vaguely recognize "BEEP"
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  911. BASSGOD um, is jonas still here?
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  921. moparisthebest participant list says yes, but you didn't tag him
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  928. BASSGOD > moparisthebest wrote: > participant list says yes, but you didn't tag him is it the same jonas’ that used to maintain the MUC search?
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  932. moparisthebest says right here how to contact maintainer: https://search.jabber.network/legal
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  942. BASSGOD ahh thanks mate moparisthebest wanted to contact him for info about an old incident
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