XSF Discussion - 2022-07-09


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  413. Maranda What's the status on PRECIS support by servers? Anyone has a clear idea? My last is that Prosody does it, ejabberd doesn't
  414. Maranda what about Tigase, OpenFire..? (Google hasn't been of much help)
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  421. Zash No PRECIS in Prosody
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  424. Zash Still waiting for https://unicode-org.atlassian.net/browse/ICU-11981
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  428. Maranda > <Zash> No PRECIS in Prosody 👍️ Okay so I'll rephrase that into *it's JIDPREP doesn't care about it*
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  431. Maranda (in particular the resourceprep part)
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  434. Zash I'm confused.
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  436. Maranda Zash summing up ejabberd does bounce stanzas whit (new) emoticons in resources, Prosody doesn't.
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  445. Sam Zash: if I'm building your luaunbound bindings, will they work against any version of Lua or do I need to specifically link them against that version? I know nothing about how Lua (or the Lua/C interface stuff) works
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  447. Sam eg. if I want them for use with lua 5.2 and 5.3, do I need to build two shared libraries or one?
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  449. Zash Sam, you will need to build per Lua version. Each Lua x.y version is all different, different language, different API, different ABI. Small differences because the language is small, but it's comparable to Python 2 vs 3
  450. Sam Thanks
  451. Zash Maranda, recent Prosody will be reject unknown (in Unicode 3.2) characters in creation of local things, i.e. users, resources, participants. Unknown characters in JIDs coming from remote servers are considered the remote servers responsibility and will be allowed as long as there's nothing actually invalid.
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  455. Guus Last I asked, no-one really supported PRECIS. I asked because I assumed that Openfire lagged behind.
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  457. Guus I have opted to not start implementing support in Openfire, out of fear of incompatibility.
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  459. Zash Got library for it?
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  462. Zash Loop over {U+0..U+10FFF} and check both STRINGPREP and PRECIS?
  463. Sam I've got that somewhere as a unit test
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  511. Zash How much time should I spend looking for the email I'm sure I wrote about stringprep and strictness?
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  522. Zash TL;DR robustness principle 🤷️
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  595. Holger Considered bad!
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  598. Holger If one server accepts invalid resource strings others are somewhat forced to do the same, or you'll end up e.g. with visibility of groupchat messages depending on the participant's user (that's where we are now).
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  601. Holger If one server accepts invalid resource strings others are somewhat forced to do the same, or you'll end up e.g. with visibility of groupchat messages depending on the participant's server (that's where we are now).
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  604. Holger (Yes I'm aware everything falls apart anyway once the ecosystem is a mix of PRECIS and the old world.)
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  609. Holger > unknown characters are considered the remote server's responsibility and will be allowed Unknown characters _are_ invalid as per resourceprep, no?
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  612. Holger Hence I don't quite see the difference to accepting arbitrary other invalid data on an incoming s2s stream with the same reasoning?
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  677. Link Mauve Holger, mostly commonness of it, and how much things would break.
  678. Link Mauve The ecosystem is already quite strict about random invalid stuff, so it doesn’t hurt too much to continue to do so.
  679. Link Mauve While if a user has a JID which fails validation under some new ruleset, that’s a pretty bad situation they’re in.
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  682. Holger So you're arguing a server should accept unknown chars because that's "common" and not many things would break?
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  684. Holger (If they're coming via s2s?)
  685. Link Mauve That’s what we are doing atm, only moving towards more strictness on user registration AIUI.
  686. Holger Who's "we"?
  687. Holger ejabberd just has a single JID validator FWIW. So I need a new validate_s2s_jid() thing now?
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  689. Link Mauve Perhaps the XMPP network as a whole, but at least Prosody.
  690. Link Mauve Still no PRECIS though, even for that registration step.
  691. Holger Well as I said, not the network as a whole, if you consider ejabberd servers to be part of it :-)
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  693. Holger Which leads to e.g. the breakage I mentioned in practice.
  694. Link Mauve Ideally, we’d only allow localparts (and resourceparts) which pass all of stringprep and PRECIS.
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  696. Link Mauve Same for your MUC example, the MUC server would reject nicks (resourceparts) which don’t match all of stringprep and PRECIS, but other servers would allow invalid ones.
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  701. Link Mauve I think that’s the best situation atm.
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  706. Holger PRECIS seems like an unrelated issue to me. No idea how to solve that. But we're breaking interop even within the stringprep universe.
  707. Link Mauve Are we?
  708. Holger At least with Prosody vs. ejabberd, no?
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  710. Holger AIUI, Prosody does stringprep with an "accept unknown chars via s2s" extension. That's not really related to PRECIS is it?
  711. Link Mauve IIRC it depends on the backend used, previously it was libidn and now it is ICU, I don’t know the specificities of each.
  712. Holger "Sigh."
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  714. Link Mauve IIRC the issue was in IDNA2003 vs. IDNA2008.
  715. Link Mauve Which were using two different Unicode versions, and also some other subtle rule changes.
  716. Link Mauve Or maybe I’m just talking about something I don’t remember precisely enough.
  717. Holger Anyway, I have no idea how we're supposed to achieve interop between those two incompatible universes. But as long as we only implement one of them, I think "be strict in what you accept" is preferable if the goal is interop.
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  720. Link Mauve +1, that’s the best goal, as long as everyone is doing it.
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  722. Zash IDNA is only about DNS
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  725. Sam Link Mauve: you don't remember *PRECISly* enough?
  726. Sam ducks
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  728. Link Mauve :3
  729. moparisthebest I also chuckled
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  863. Zash We have had that discussion so many times, I can no longer find my arguments, only statements by myself implying that I wrote the argument earlier.
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  874. Zash https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2020-09-19?p=h#2020-09-19-f91f5bb0cf868233
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  876. Zash https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xmpp/a-WhzOTyOq168GujQHgzQ1-DURI/
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  963. flow a good start would be if implementations, probably especially server ones, would reject, or at least warn, if new accounts are created with invalid JIDs according to newer RFCs (RFC7622 currently)
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  972. Holger Zash: Thanks, somehow managed to miss those.
  973. Zash Once upon a time in Prosody-land, there was two choices for STRINGPREP, libidn and libicu. libidn was the default and it would allow unassigned characters by default, while libicu would reject them by default. This caused problems, e.g. if you were silly and put an emoji in your resource you could not talk to some other servers (Prosody with libicu or e.g. jabber.org) So as a first step, we made those two (bindings to) libraries behave the same, opting to go with the relaxed libidn default as default. Then as a next step, we added a function argument to the stringprep functions to enable strict validation, which we now (since 0.12.0) use when things (users, resources, rooms, MUC participants) are created. The plan now is, in my mind, that since we don't allow JIDs with unassigned characters to enter the network, we can eventually be more strict once old versions of Prosody upgrade.
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  982. Zash flow, so, prosody does this, but on RFC 6122 (I think)
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  987. Holger Sounds good.
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  998. Zash Problem solved? 🎉️
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  1006. moparisthebest And people with JIDs they made years ago just have to change them when they upgrade?
  1007. moparisthebest And since migrating JID is so easy...
  1008. Zash Existing users are not affected if enforcement is done on creation.
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  1015. moparisthebest So then you just never enforce it, so why bother at all?
  1016. singpolyma I'm really not sure why all valid Unicode sequences other than @ are not allowed in local, an all valid allowed in resources?
  1017. singpolyma I'm really not sure why all valid Unicode sequences other than @ are not allowed in local, ant all valid allowed in resources?
  1018. singpolyma I'm really not sure why all valid Unicode sequences other than @ are not allowed in local, and all valid allowed in resources?
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  1023. singpolyma Obviously domains have rules from their own relevant specs, and that's fine
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  1026. Holger moparisthebest: Reducing the amount of breakage might be desirable even if you don't get down to zero (immediately)?
  1027. moparisthebest Wouldn't that be just liberally accepting everything always?
  1028. Holger In a single implementation? No.
  1029. moparisthebest I mean it's now considered bad when designing new protocols, but there's no fixing old ones without a flag day
  1030. Holger If you control all implementations just switch them all to PRECIS now.
  1031. moparisthebest That's a flag day and impossible on the public federated network
  1032. Holger Right.
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  1034. singpolyma Why do we want to ban anything anyway? What's the goal?
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  1047. Holger singpolyma: You're asking why specs specify rulesets for identifiers at all? You easily run into severe breakage (incl. security issues) if you just blindly accept arbitrary code points here.
  1048. singpolyma Holger: what kind of breakage? The only special char for localpart is the @ and for resource there is nothing that I'm aware of
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  1050. Holger Starting from obvious display issues with non-printable characters, ending with Unicode crap such as having one code point that represents a character and another that deletes that character, so you end up with an empty local part and turn that thing into a server JID or I don't know.
  1051. Holger Do 20 minutes of Unicode programming and you'll run into 30 such examples.
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  1056. Zash should singpolyma and Singpolyma be different users?
  1057. wgreenhouse has left
  1058. Zash should jörgen and jörgen be different users?
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  1076. singpolyma Zash: running a normalization algo doesn't have to require banning anything does it?
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  1079. moparisthebest I guess if S and s are the only two characters that lol alike today but then a third is introduced tomorrow?
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  1081. moparisthebest I've said it before, I'll say it again, Unicode was a mistake, return to ASCII
  1082. Zash singpolyma, whitespace? control characters?
  1083. singpolyma Isn't whitespace already allowed in resources?
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  1085. Zash I'm mostly talking about usernames
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  1088. Zash resources should not be user-facing strings and I'd be pretty happy if it was required to be something like a UUID
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  1090. Zash the way MUC uses them was a mistake
  1091. qy Should jids be bytes, not text?
  1092. Zash JIDs should be JIDs, there are special rules for comparing them and stuff.
  1093. singpolyma qy: definitely more like text than bytes
  1094. singpolyma Zash: why not allow whitespace in local part?
  1095. Zash xmpp:how%20about%20no@example
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  1097. Zash Does anything anywhere allow whitespace in usernames or localpart equivalents?
  1098. singpolyma I'm not sure "other people suck too" is a good argument :)
  1099. Zash Except email. And that's a pretty good reason to forbid whitespace.
  1100. singpolyma But, for example, SIP does of course
  1101. Zash "let's not repeat other peoples mistakes" seems like a good reason
  1102. singpolyma Why is it a mistake?
  1103. Zash I don't know. But I am happy I don't have to deal with "email addresses like this"@example.com which is supposedly allowed.
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  1107. singpolyma I wish those were better supported
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  1110. singpolyma Though the way SIP does it, by making the URI encoding the only official encoding, is pretty great
  1111. Zash Tho technically you can have anything you want in _usernames_ (in SASL)
  1112. Zash except , and = or something
  1113. singpolyma Just seems like such a weird wart to allow almost full Unicode but then ban something useful like spaces
  1114. singpolyma Especially when they're not banned in JIDs generally (allowed in resource)
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  1117. qy Zash: But unicode domains are a thing, so nbsp probably could slide in there
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  1120. qy Mmm punycode
  1121. Zash nameprep allows spaces actually
  1122. Zash also allows `/` and `:`
  1123. Zash so `https://upload.example.com` is a legal DNS hostname.
  1124. Zash Now ask me again why we should strict rules for these thincgs.
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  1131. Holger singpolyma: > Zash: running a normalization algo doesn't have to require banning anything does it? How do you normalize unknown code points?
  1132. mdosch Remove!
  1133. Zash And how is normalization different from forbidding the non-normalized characters?
  1134. mdosch Asking me?
  1135. Holger mdosch: And if they turn into known code points tomorrow, we still remove them for compat with yesterday (otherwise your JID would change). Which is basically what stringprep is doing 🙂
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  1138. Holger (Ok refuse rather that remove but …)
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  1142. mdosch Yesterday you couldn't have that fancy char, today you can. :) Times are changing. :)
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  1144. Holger Früher war alles besser.
  1145. mdosch Auch die Zukunft!
  1146. Zash Achtung panzer
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  1148. mdosch Just stick to ASCII as moparisthebest suggested and everything is easy. :)
  1149. Holger 😳
  1150. mdosch Zash: ?
  1151. Zash Random german burned into my brain for whatever reason. 🤷️
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  1153. mdosch I never used those words during my trips to sweden, I swear!
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  1155. mdosch Just said En stor stark Öl tack!
  1156. Zash All you need!
  1157. mdosch Jag älskjar sverige. 🥰
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  1162. Zash 🙂
  1163. Zash Speaking of bier, when do we Summit again?
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  1166. moparisthebest What if we just punycode localparts ?
  1167. Zash What if we don't? Also https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0106.html
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  1171. moparisthebest I mean you already need to be punycode capable for domains right?
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