XSF Discussion - 2022-07-25


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  371. Tobias As messages of type error are usually not persistent in MAM, are there other mechanisms for persisted delivery errors?
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  374. singpolyma Probably should patch MAM modules to store the errors :)
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  376. Ge0rG but you need to store the "good" errors and not the "bad" errors
  377. Maranda example of "good" errors?
  378. Ge0rG Maranda: recipient account doesn't exist
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  386. singpolyma Ge0rG: what is a "bad" error?
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  388. Ge0rG singpolyma: e.g. a client resource going offline, bouncing messages that were sent to a full JID
  389. Ge0rG ephemeral and permanent errors
  390. singpolyma Ge0rG: what would it be bad to store that? My client should be able to interpret it on replay the same way it interpreted it live, now?
  391. singpolyma Ge0rG: what would it be bad to store that? My client should be able to interpret it on replay the same way it interpreted it live, no?
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  404. Maranda singpolyma: archives exploding for one
  405. singpolyma Maranda: you mean getting "too big"? Is that a real fear? Are people receiving so many of these errors compared to the number of messages they send?
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  411. Maranda yes depending what gets included in the archive and the implementation that could be a real fear, when I implemented MAM I always heavily filtered and sanitized the content and payloads getting archived
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  417. singpolyma I my ideal implementation every inbound <message> stanza of any kind would get archived, but I could see why some might want to exclude typing indicators or sometning like that
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  419. singpolyma but errors seem important
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  422. Maranda XMPP never been light on dishing out transient errors, modern xmpp tends heavily relying on 'em (e.g. SM resending) so archiving all those ephemeral payloads can turn out into being explosive on higher scales, I guess.
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  424. Ge0rG singpolyma: my rule of thumb would be: if a message is stored in MAM, then a delivery error related to that message needs to be stored as well
  425. singpolyma Ge0rG: right. that sounds like a good baseline
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  430. Maranda Also there should be a mechanism to dump certain archive entries that aren't useful after they have been delivered, and MAM doesn't have a way yet to delete or purge entries, the spec mandates there shouldn't be holes in the archive so at most you can tombstone entries.
  431. Ge0rG Yeah.
  432. singpolyma if you use sortable ids you can tombstone without having to actually store anything probably. but that's all implementation detail
  433. Maranda Meaning that if you don't filter what you put into an archive properly you can have pretty easily situations where it becomes *too big*, because tombstones have to stay there and still occupy space.
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  435. Ge0rG we also have ephemeral messages like chat states that shouldn't go into MAM at all
  436. Ge0rG but chat states should have been presence anyway
  437. Maranda > <singpolyma> if you use sortable ids you can tombstone without having to actually store anything probably. but that's all implementation detail I'm not sure I understand, when you tombstone an entry you can basically delete any element inside the forwarded payload (except the stanza attributes) but you can't omit all the rest e.g. whatever stays on the forward payload (SID and all the rest)
  438. Maranda So I don't pick how "sortable ids" would help.
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  440. singpolyma Oh, I guess you need to know all the ids still unless they are fully sequential, not just sortable
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  443. Maranda Ge0rG: FWIW I for example never stored chat states (only markers)
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  499. goffi Hi, note to editors and council menbers: as I've mentioned a couple of days ago, I've update my protoXEP "pubsub attachments" to update the "reactions" feature so it is similar to XEP-0444. I've also fixed a case issue with "SHOULD NOT" instead of "SHOULT not" and updated business rules. PR is at https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1191
  500. goffi Thanks!
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  577. MattJ There is an IETF BoF meeting about messaging interop (MIMI WG) today at 20:00 UTC. I'm hoping to attend, but I'd appreciate it if anyone else is interested and available. Remote participation is via WebEx and I can dig up the details on request.
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