XSF Discussion - 2022-07-27


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  245. edhelas https://media.ccc.de/v/mch2022-196-signal-you-were-the-chosen-one-
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  248. edhelas And the HN thread
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  250. edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32244795
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  374. jjrh > We're trying to evolve and upgrade email to have the look and feel and features of a product like Signal
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  377. jjrh I mean i'm all for a email client that does GPG well in a easy to understand way but I don't think that's what they are talking about.
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  404. jjrh The big barrier of entry I have found with XMPP is there isn't a solid client I can recommend for every platform (Windows, Linux, OSX, ios, android)
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  406. goffi jjrh: lot of client are done by single dev or small entities, and it's really complicated to target all platforms and make a good UX if you don't have a lot of developing resources.
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  409. goffi jjrh: Snikket is doing a neat job by working with existing well-established client (one per platform), and working on UX and interoperability
  410. goffi I'm currently testing it, it's really nice work.
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  412. jjrh goffi, oh 100% and gui stuff outside the web is just hard.
  413. jjrh I'd be interest in what Snikket suggests for IOS - every time I have tried to onboard someone on IOS it's been riddled with problems - and this is from technical users mostly.
  414. Link Mauve jjrh, a client called Snikket. :p
  415. Link Mauve The same name as the client on Android, but a different codebase.
  416. Link Mauve And it’s vetted to work against the server called Snikket.
  417. jjrh The code is fresh or a fork of something?
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  419. jjrh ah based on siskin
  420. Link Mauve It’s a fork of Tigase’s SiskinIM.
  421. jjrh Does it do omemo?
  422. Link Mauve Yes.
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  424. jjrh Maybe i'll suggest that to some coworkers - big issue I ran into was push notifications but I think I resolved that - wasn't loading the prosody module.
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  426. MattJ The Snikket apps are recommended for use with a Snikket server, otherwise you (server admin) needs to keep completely on top of required config on the server
  427. Link Mauve That won’t work as well with any random server as with the Snikket server, there are some non-standard extensions that are mostly missing standardisation so far.
  428. jjrh ah
  429. jjrh I'll have to take a closer look - what's the recommendation for OSX and windows?
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  431. Link Mauve Nothing yet, there are branded clients only for Android and iOS so far.
  432. MattJ See https://snikket.org/faq/#q-can-i-use-non-snikket-apps-to-connect-to-a-snikket-server
  433. jjrh Does the server install include a webclient?
  434. MattJ No, not currently
  435. MattJ It's on the roadmap
  436. jjrh Sounds like a great project that is tackling some of my grips with getting folks on XMPP
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  453. jjrh I remember a while back someone talking about writing a XEP to do something similar to what whatsapp, google sms messenger, etc does where when you want to use a browser (or app) to login you simply scan a QR code from your phone that is already authenticated. Did that ever happen or go anywhere?
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  457. MattJ Yes, I got funding from NLnet to work on that: https://blog.prosody.im/modern-xmpp-auth/
  458. MattJ The first pieces will be merged into Prosody very soon
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  461. jjrh Very cool!
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  471. flow what jjrh said!11 :)
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  480. jjrh is the XSF summit for 2023 in person or online?
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  482. MattJ I would very much hope it will be in person
  483. jjrh Couldn't find any info on if fosdem was going to be in person yet
  484. MattJ Yeah, I think that will be a big factor. Even if FOSDEM is online (which I suspect is unlikely at this point) I would like to see the XSF organize one or more in-person events
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  496. jjrh Might be interesting to have a XSF event before a IETF meeting.
  497. Zash Did someone say London in November?
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  501. Ge0rG Isn't FOSDEM an event happening in Europe?
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  503. MattJ Ge0rG?
  504. Ge0rG MattJ: is it too early for brexit jokes?
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  506. MattJ Always
  507. Ge0rG sorry
  508. Zash https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/upcoming/
  509. jjrh Might be really interesting to do London :)
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  514. edhelas Damn, meetings are planned until 2028, that's some serious agenda :D
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  516. jjrh Makes sense since you need to book the entire hotel.
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  519. moparisthebest Ge0rG, I thought it was too late for brexit jokes
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  525. Ge0rG moparisthebest: oh, they returned into the EU?
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  527. edhelas MattJ I'd be pleased to integrate those modern XMPP auth things in Movim !
  528. MattJ edhelas, excellent! I think Movim is a great candidate :)
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  530. MattJ I'll let you know as soon as I have something for you to give feedback on and/or implement
  531. moparisthebest Ge0rG, nah just old news, it'd be like joking about how bad AOL instant messager is
  532. edhelas MattJ I'll try to have a look at the specs to see how difficult it can be. Maybe I can apply for a small NLNet fund for it ?
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  535. MattJ Worth asking :)
  536. emus Who would be responsible for XMPP Summit organisation?
  537. MattJ The SCAM team
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  556. emus MattJ: Thanks, but SCAM Team is eager to do so and has the resources?
  557. Zash They have one job!
  558. edhelas SCAM Team Assemble !
  559. MattJ From my perspective, that team has been pretty inactive the past couple of years. I can't deny I'm disappointed that no attempt to replace the missed summits with anything was attempted. It's been a tough few years for sure, but other organizations managed it.
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  563. Ge0rG So the SCAM turned out to be a scam?
  564. emus I think that could be a thing board could ask if they want to and if not, call for an organisation team
  565. Ge0rG 🤷
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  568. MattJ emus, part of board is part of SCAM, and I expressed my disappointment multiple times, but if nobody steps up (whether they are currently on SCAM or not) then expressing disappointment isn't going to change much :)
  569. Ge0rG maybe you need to write a strongly worded chat message
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  571. Guus Balls were dropped there, definitely. Apologies
  572. Guus That said, I have little energy to spare on SCAM for the time being
  573. Guus Reorganisation might be good
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  592. emus > Reorganisation might be good I think that would be the best thing. I think I support here and in a potential new SCAM team (maybe also a new name? 😊)
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  604. MattJ ralphm, arc, jcbrand: dare I ask if anyone is here? :)
  605. ralphm Yes
  606. MattJ \o/
  607. MattJ Can we manage one more?
  608. ralphm bags gavel
  609. ralphm Bangs
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  611. ralphm 1. Welcome!
  612. ralphm Who do we have?
  613. MattJ o/
  614. arc Here
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  617. arc This is an hour before I thought we were meeting, but Im here
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  619. ralphm It is 15:30 UTC?
  620. MattJ jcbrand already indicated he wouldn't be able to make it at this time
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  623. ralphm Ok, let's go then
  624. jcbrand Hi
  625. jcbrand I'm here
  626. MattJ Oh wow, excellent :)
  627. ralphm Woohoo
  628. ralphm Ok, so let's try to do every other week from September onwards?
  629. MattJ We can see how that goes
  630. ralphm Also, good to be back.
  631. arc Works for me, should I set my own calendar notification or will we do a global one?
  632. MattJ It's good to have you back :)
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  634. ralphm I will, just as today, add it to the XSF calendar
  635. ralphm (the Google one)
  636. ralphm Shall I try this timeslot?
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  638. arc This works for me. I thought it was an hour later, but this works better in case we run over 30 mins
  639. MattJ I can definitely make it work if this is okay for everyone else.
  640. ralphm Cool
  641. ralphm Anything else to note at this agenda item?
  642. ralphm In any case thanks Matt for getting this going
  643. MattJ Not from me. Sounds like we have a good plan.
  644. arc Actually where are we on employer stats?
  645. ralphm 2. XEP-0001 Archived state
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  648. MattJ As long as we have at least quarterly meetings (i.e. what's required by the bylaws) I'm good :)
  649. arc I don't need to know the statistics I'm just making sure someone's keeping track, because this was an issue a few years ago
  650. ralphm Alex generally monitors this, I think
  651. arc Mattj I believe annual meetings also work because I'm on a board for a few nonprofits that just do annual
  652. MattJ arc, the XSF bylaws require at least quarterly meetings of the board, but this is something that could be changed
  653. arc Ah, ok. Well, weekly is fine for me
  654. MattJ Personally I think monthly or quarterly would be generally adequate
  655. ralphm I don't think we need to change this
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  658. ralphm So I'll schedule it and see how that goes
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  660. ralphm Now, on to 2?
  661. MattJ ralphm, my worry is that people can get burnt out and/or complacent with weekly (which is not common at all for org board meetings)
  662. MattJ But yep, let's see how it goes
  663. MattJ 2: I can say something
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  665. ralphm Go ahead
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  667. MattJ I don't see anything necessarily wrong with this, but I'd like to see if we can get some broader list discussion from the community rather than just a quiet PR to a XEP at the foundation of our process
  668. Zash ARTICLE V Section 5.3 > the Board of Directors shall hold regular meetings according to a schedule established by the Board of Directors, but not _less frequently than quarterly._
  669. MattJ If we agree on this, I'm happy to send such an email to spark discussion
  670. MattJ and then hopefully we can make a decision in +2w
  671. ralphm For sure we need some community input.
  672. ralphm What's Council's take?
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  674. jonas’ I am here
  675. jonas’ We haven't discussed it in our meeting today, but from my perspective as editor and council member (definitely not speaking for the entire group, because we haven't discussed it, as I mentioned), I'd appreciate community discussion first.
  676. jonas’ Though this PR is older than I expected
  677. MattJ cccccbctekgckcejgtnkfhljtknjdibhkciuugcbjejf
  678. jonas’ hello yubikey
  679. MattJ oops
  680. jonas’ I think we *did* have community discussion at or around June 23rd, 2021
  681. ralphm Hehe
  682. jonas’ which revises my take to "I need to review that discussion"
  683. ralphm Let's revive that then
  684. ralphm Reviewing previous feedback can be done in parallel
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  686. ralphm 3. Aging Infra
  687. mjk has joined
  688. ralphm My take is: please just make a plan and execute. We have money and this is a good place to spend it.
  689. MattJ Ok, this is to highlight that we have critical services running on ancient hardware
  690. Ingolf has left
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  692. arc Who hosts us?
  693. ralphm I find it hard to pick if dedicated hardware or Cloud is better for our case, but don't think Board has to make that call. Our ED + iteam can do this just fine.
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  695. MattJ We should consider our DNS/mail server atlas, for example. We can purchase a replacement, seek a sponsor of newer hardware for the bunker, or even other hosting options or managed services
  696. MattJ I am very okay with moving to third-party hosted DNS. I'm less sure about mail
  697. jonas’ It would be nice if we could gain mailman3 eventually.
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  700. MattJ That's partly blocked by our old hardware
  701. MattJ Which is how this came up
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  704. ralphm Let's not have that discussion here. What's blocking you/team from making a plan and just doing it? How can we help unblock?
  705. MattJ I was hoping for some more input on the decisions :)
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  711. MattJ Especially as there are significant differences in them from the financial perspective
  712. arc Hardware so old it can't run Django?
  713. arc That would be extremely frightening. I can run Mailman 3 on a raspberry pi
  714. MattJ arc, we need to upgrade the OS, but at least one of our other servers won't boot newer kernels. We can risk an in-place upgrade of this server, but have no fallback if it goes bad.
  715. jonas’ arc, hardware so old that you don't get packaged mailman3.
  716. jonas’ you truly don't want to know ^_^
  717. arc Oh. That's different
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  719. jonas’ MattJ, lacking board input, I propose we two as iteam members sit together and make a plan some time
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  721. jonas’ or two plans
  722. jonas’ and offer them to board for decision
  723. MattJ Sure, okay
  724. ralphm Again, if you say it makes sense to buy new hardware, let's do so. But I'm equally ok with having a VM in some cloud provider. Yes, it will be more expensive. But let's do a calculation on that vs. effort and see if we can afford that. We might also get sponsors for that
  725. arc I have no strong opinion on this
  726. MattJ Right. We'll do as jonas’ suggested then, if nobody has an opinion or guidance at this stage.
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  729. ralphm I have plenty of opinions, but in general the answer is 'it depends' 🫤
  730. mathijs has joined
  731. ralphm So +1 on that suggestion
  732. arc Two plans sounds great, then we can feel like we're making a decision even though the decision will likely be obvious given the options
  733. arc +1
  734. MattJ :)
  735. Tobias has left
  736. ralphm We have plenty more on the agenda, but it looks like most of those could be done (initially?) on list?
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  739. MattJ That's fine with me if we need to wrap up
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  741. arc Let's have something to discuss for next week
  742. arc I'm actually free for the next hour but I'm happy to keep these to 30 minutes
  743. ralphm I am not unfortunately, but can participate in email
  744. ralphm Or next week
  745. MattJ Next week or +2w? :)
  746. ralphm Ok, let's do +2W
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  750. MattJ Hmm, that's 10th August? I might actually be travelling that day
  751. MattJ I *could* do next week though
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  753. ralphm Ok +1W
  754. ralphm Cya then
  755. ralphm Thanks all!
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  757. MattJ Thanks! I'll send minutes soon
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  764. jcbrand Sorry for the silence, I have another meeting running in parallel. I did read everything though
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  767. MattJ No worries, thanks :)
  768. jcbrand Next week I'm on holiday, but I'll have my phone with my and will try to join
  769. jcbrand arc: my monthly holiday
  770. arc You Europeans and your monthly holidays lol
  771. arc I envy you
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  808. emus > ralphm wrote: > My take is: please just make a plan and execute. We have money and this is a good place to spend it. 👍
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  811. emus > jonas’ wrote: > It would be nice if we could gain mailman3 eventually. +1
  812. emus > MattJ wrote: > That's partly blocked by our old hardware > Which is how this came up oh, ok I see
  813. Zash Just Do It!
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  816. emus > MattJ wrote: > Right. We'll do as jonas’ suggested then, if nobody has an opinion or guidance at this stage. I prefer not cloud, but I am also the one with fewest knowledge here 🤷🏻‍♂️ In any way, if I can support this let me know. Besides, I was think of a general survey with xsf members. the hardware and service infrastructure could be one topic. but this is maybe overkill for this decision (but generally speaking good IMO)
  817. papatutuwawa has joined
  818. emus jcbrand: but do you have an opinion on the hardware stuff? MattJ: singpolyma might support with the hardware/hosting question, too (if you want more opinion) maybe a mail to members could give you an impression too. Happy to support again
  819. kurisu has left
  820. moparisthebest the only opinions that matter are the people actually supporting it, I wouldn't ask anyone else's opinion, at least broadly like that
  821. Zash Let's build a 300 node raspberry pi k8s cluster!!!!11!eleven /s
  822. Guus Cloud-based infra might give is more access / reduce dependency on the one person that has physical access, and will have less upfront costs. It tends to be more flexible, for what it's worth, with regards to resizing, and it can be more fault tolerant (assuming the cloud provider replaces broken instances automatically).
  823. kurisu has joined
  824. Zash But email?
  825. Guus But email.
  826. Zash Hm, but email is probably orthogonal.
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  829. Kev We know we've had basically no issue with mail from the bunker, my inclination would be to just replace atlas with another low-power server in the bunker and be done with it. Path of least resistance.
  830. Guus Generally speaking, I'd be in favour of outsourcing anything that we reasonably can to people dedicated to the service to be maintained. They probably have better qualifications and tooling, and it frees up our most scarce resource: brainpower.
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  842. emus MattJ Zash: Whats your gut feeling what go for?
  843. Zash 🤷️
  844. Zash Pancakes I think
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  853. emus Guus: I would also not go against even its not my prefered solution. The only thing I expect is respect to privacy of the setup
  854. Zash For running public mailing lists?
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  870. emus Zash: wouldnt be only public right? maybe then we can also.have member mails etc.? and would you like to have a service full of tracking?
  871. neshtaxmpp has joined
  872. emus (not that I expect anyone.here will go for something like.this)
  873. MattJ There are private mailing lists and subscribers who join may not want to publicly disclose their subscription status (I don't know if this is a property that mailman has or not)
  874. moparisthebest what are we trying to protect against exactly? email isn't very private
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  878. emus moparisthebest: at least tracking and ReCaptcha for subscription 😊
  879. singpolyma Can always just run your own subscription form with almost any mail provider. What kind of server used, or even full cloud services, isn't going to mandate any of that kind of tracking
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  888. emus ok
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