-
edhelas
https://media.ccc.de/v/mch2022-196-signal-you-were-the-chosen-one-
-
edhelas
And the HN thread
-
edhelas
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32244795
-
jjrh
> We're trying to evolve and upgrade email to have the look and feel and features of a product like Signal
-
jjrh
I mean i'm all for a email client that does GPG well in a easy to understand way but I don't think that's what they are talking about.
-
jjrh
The big barrier of entry I have found with XMPP is there isn't a solid client I can recommend for every platform (Windows, Linux, OSX, ios, android)
-
goffi
jjrh: lot of client are done by single dev or small entities, and it's really complicated to target all platforms and make a good UX if you don't have a lot of developing resources.
-
goffi
jjrh: Snikket is doing a neat job by working with existing well-established client (one per platform), and working on UX and interoperability
-
goffi
I'm currently testing it, it's really nice work.
-
jjrh
goffi, oh 100% and gui stuff outside the web is just hard.
-
jjrh
I'd be interest in what Snikket suggests for IOS - every time I have tried to onboard someone on IOS it's been riddled with problems - and this is from technical users mostly.
-
Link Mauve
jjrh, a client called Snikket. :p
-
Link Mauve
The same name as the client on Android, but a different codebase.
-
Link Mauve
And it’s vetted to work against the server called Snikket.
-
jjrh
The code is fresh or a fork of something?
-
jjrh
ah based on siskin
-
Link Mauve
It’s a fork of Tigase’s SiskinIM.
-
jjrh
Does it do omemo?
-
Link Mauve
Yes.
-
jjrh
Maybe i'll suggest that to some coworkers - big issue I ran into was push notifications but I think I resolved that - wasn't loading the prosody module.
-
MattJ
The Snikket apps are recommended for use with a Snikket server, otherwise you (server admin) needs to keep completely on top of required config on the server
-
Link Mauve
That won’t work as well with any random server as with the Snikket server, there are some non-standard extensions that are mostly missing standardisation so far.
-
jjrh
ah
-
jjrh
I'll have to take a closer look - what's the recommendation for OSX and windows?
-
Link Mauve
Nothing yet, there are branded clients only for Android and iOS so far.
-
MattJ
See https://snikket.org/faq/#q-can-i-use-non-snikket-apps-to-connect-to-a-snikket-server
-
jjrh
Does the server install include a webclient?
-
MattJ
No, not currently
-
MattJ
It's on the roadmap
-
jjrh
Sounds like a great project that is tackling some of my grips with getting folks on XMPP
-
jjrh
I remember a while back someone talking about writing a XEP to do something similar to what whatsapp, google sms messenger, etc does where when you want to use a browser (or app) to login you simply scan a QR code from your phone that is already authenticated. Did that ever happen or go anywhere?
-
MattJ
Yes, I got funding from NLnet to work on that: https://blog.prosody.im/modern-xmpp-auth/
-
MattJ
The first pieces will be merged into Prosody very soon
-
jjrh
Very cool!
-
flow
what jjrh said!11 :)
-
jjrh
is the XSF summit for 2023 in person or online?
-
MattJ
I would very much hope it will be in person
-
jjrh
Couldn't find any info on if fosdem was going to be in person yet
-
MattJ
Yeah, I think that will be a big factor. Even if FOSDEM is online (which I suspect is unlikely at this point) I would like to see the XSF organize one or more in-person events
-
jjrh
Might be interesting to have a XSF event before a IETF meeting.
-
Zash
Did someone say London in November?
-
Ge0rG
Isn't FOSDEM an event happening in Europe?
-
MattJ
Ge0rG?
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: is it too early for brexit jokes?
-
MattJ
Always
-
Ge0rG
sorry
-
Zash
https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/upcoming/
-
jjrh
Might be really interesting to do London :)
-
edhelas
Damn, meetings are planned until 2028, that's some serious agenda :D
-
jjrh
Makes sense since you need to book the entire hotel.
-
moparisthebest
Ge0rG, I thought it was too late for brexit jokes
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: oh, they returned into the EU?
-
edhelas
MattJ I'd be pleased to integrate those modern XMPP auth things in Movim !
-
MattJ
edhelas, excellent! I think Movim is a great candidate :)
-
MattJ
I'll let you know as soon as I have something for you to give feedback on and/or implement
-
moparisthebest
Ge0rG, nah just old news, it'd be like joking about how bad AOL instant messager is
-
edhelas
MattJ I'll try to have a look at the specs to see how difficult it can be. Maybe I can apply for a small NLNet fund for it ?
-
MattJ
Worth asking :)
-
emus
Who would be responsible for XMPP Summit organisation?
-
MattJ
The SCAM team
-
emus
MattJ: Thanks, but SCAM Team is eager to do so and has the resources?
-
Zash
They have one job!
-
edhelas
SCAM Team Assemble !
-
MattJ
From my perspective, that team has been pretty inactive the past couple of years. I can't deny I'm disappointed that no attempt to replace the missed summits with anything was attempted. It's been a tough few years for sure, but other organizations managed it.
-
Ge0rG
So the SCAM turned out to be a scam?✎ -
emus
I think that could be a thing board could ask if they want to and if not, call for an organisation team
-
Ge0rG
🤷 ✏
-
MattJ
emus, part of board is part of SCAM, and I expressed my disappointment multiple times, but if nobody steps up (whether they are currently on SCAM or not) then expressing disappointment isn't going to change much :)
-
Ge0rG
maybe you need to write a strongly worded chat message
-
Guus
Balls were dropped there, definitely. Apologies
-
Guus
That said, I have little energy to spare on SCAM for the time being
-
Guus
Reorganisation might be good
-
emus
> Reorganisation might be good I think that would be the best thing. I think I support here and in a potential new SCAM team (maybe also a new name? 😊)
-
MattJ
ralphm, arc, jcbrand: dare I ask if anyone is here? :)
-
ralphm
Yes
-
MattJ
\o/
-
MattJ
Can we manage one more?
- ralphm bags gavel
-
ralphm
Bangs
-
ralphm
1. Welcome!
-
ralphm
Who do we have?
-
MattJ
o/
-
arc
Here
-
arc
This is an hour before I thought we were meeting, but Im here
-
ralphm
It is 15:30 UTC?
-
MattJ
jcbrand already indicated he wouldn't be able to make it at this time
-
ralphm
Ok, let's go then
-
jcbrand
Hi
-
jcbrand
I'm here
-
MattJ
Oh wow, excellent :)
-
ralphm
Woohoo
-
ralphm
Ok, so let's try to do every other week from September onwards?
-
MattJ
We can see how that goes
-
ralphm
Also, good to be back.
-
arc
Works for me, should I set my own calendar notification or will we do a global one?
-
MattJ
It's good to have you back :)
-
ralphm
I will, just as today, add it to the XSF calendar
-
ralphm
(the Google one)
-
ralphm
Shall I try this timeslot?
-
arc
This works for me. I thought it was an hour later, but this works better in case we run over 30 mins
-
MattJ
I can definitely make it work if this is okay for everyone else.
-
ralphm
Cool
-
ralphm
Anything else to note at this agenda item?
-
ralphm
In any case thanks Matt for getting this going
-
MattJ
Not from me. Sounds like we have a good plan.
-
arc
Actually where are we on employer stats?
-
ralphm
2. XEP-0001 Archived state
-
MattJ
As long as we have at least quarterly meetings (i.e. what's required by the bylaws) I'm good :)
-
arc
I don't need to know the statistics I'm just making sure someone's keeping track, because this was an issue a few years ago
-
ralphm
Alex generally monitors this, I think
-
arc
Mattj I believe annual meetings also work because I'm on a board for a few nonprofits that just do annual
-
MattJ
arc, the XSF bylaws require at least quarterly meetings of the board, but this is something that could be changed
-
arc
Ah, ok. Well, weekly is fine for me
-
MattJ
Personally I think monthly or quarterly would be generally adequate
-
ralphm
I don't think we need to change this
-
ralphm
So I'll schedule it and see how that goes
-
ralphm
Now, on to 2?
-
MattJ
ralphm, my worry is that people can get burnt out and/or complacent with weekly (which is not common at all for org board meetings)
-
MattJ
But yep, let's see how it goes
-
MattJ
2: I can say something
-
ralphm
Go ahead
-
MattJ
I don't see anything necessarily wrong with this, but I'd like to see if we can get some broader list discussion from the community rather than just a quiet PR to a XEP at the foundation of our process
-
Zash
ARTICLE V Section 5.3 > the Board of Directors shall hold regular meetings according to a schedule established by the Board of Directors, but not _less frequently than quarterly._
-
MattJ
If we agree on this, I'm happy to send such an email to spark discussion
-
MattJ
and then hopefully we can make a decision in +2w
-
ralphm
For sure we need some community input.
-
ralphm
What's Council's take?
-
jonas’
I am here
-
jonas’
We haven't discussed it in our meeting today, but from my perspective as editor and council member (definitely not speaking for the entire group, because we haven't discussed it, as I mentioned), I'd appreciate community discussion first.
-
jonas’
Though this PR is older than I expected
-
MattJ
cccccbctekgckcejgtnkfhljtknjdibhkciuugcbjejf
-
jonas’
hello yubikey
-
MattJ
oops
-
jonas’
I think we *did* have community discussion at or around June 23rd, 2021
-
ralphm
Hehe
-
jonas’
which revises my take to "I need to review that discussion"
-
ralphm
Let's revive that then
-
ralphm
Reviewing previous feedback can be done in parallel
-
ralphm
3. Aging Infra
-
ralphm
My take is: please just make a plan and execute. We have money and this is a good place to spend it.
-
MattJ
Ok, this is to highlight that we have critical services running on ancient hardware
-
arc
Who hosts us?
-
ralphm
I find it hard to pick if dedicated hardware or Cloud is better for our case, but don't think Board has to make that call. Our ED + iteam can do this just fine.
-
MattJ
We should consider our DNS/mail server atlas, for example. We can purchase a replacement, seek a sponsor of newer hardware for the bunker, or even other hosting options or managed services
-
MattJ
I am very okay with moving to third-party hosted DNS. I'm less sure about mail
-
jonas’
It would be nice if we could gain mailman3 eventually.
-
MattJ
That's partly blocked by our old hardware
-
MattJ
Which is how this came up
-
ralphm
Let's not have that discussion here. What's blocking you/team from making a plan and just doing it? How can we help unblock?
-
MattJ
I was hoping for some more input on the decisions :)
-
MattJ
Especially as there are significant differences in them from the financial perspective
-
arc
Hardware so old it can't run Django?
-
arc
That would be extremely frightening. I can run Mailman 3 on a raspberry pi
-
MattJ
arc, we need to upgrade the OS, but at least one of our other servers won't boot newer kernels. We can risk an in-place upgrade of this server, but have no fallback if it goes bad.
-
jonas’
arc, hardware so old that you don't get packaged mailman3.
-
jonas’
you truly don't want to know ^_^
-
arc
Oh. That's different
-
jonas’
MattJ, lacking board input, I propose we two as iteam members sit together and make a plan some time
-
jonas’
or two plans
-
jonas’
and offer them to board for decision
-
MattJ
Sure, okay
-
ralphm
Again, if you say it makes sense to buy new hardware, let's do so. But I'm equally ok with having a VM in some cloud provider. Yes, it will be more expensive. But let's do a calculation on that vs. effort and see if we can afford that. We might also get sponsors for that
-
arc
I have no strong opinion on this
-
MattJ
Right. We'll do as jonas’ suggested then, if nobody has an opinion or guidance at this stage.
-
ralphm
I have plenty of opinions, but in general the answer is 'it depends' 🫤
-
ralphm
So +1 on that suggestion
-
arc
Two plans sounds great, then we can feel like we're making a decision even though the decision will likely be obvious given the options
-
arc
+1
-
MattJ
:)
-
ralphm
We have plenty more on the agenda, but it looks like most of those could be done (initially?) on list?
-
MattJ
That's fine with me if we need to wrap up
-
arc
Let's have something to discuss for next week
-
arc
I'm actually free for the next hour but I'm happy to keep these to 30 minutes
-
ralphm
I am not unfortunately, but can participate in email
-
ralphm
Or next week
-
MattJ
Next week or +2w? :)
-
ralphm
Ok, let's do +2W
-
MattJ
Hmm, that's 10th August? I might actually be travelling that day
-
MattJ
I *could* do next week though
-
ralphm
Ok +1W
-
ralphm
Cya then
-
ralphm
Thanks all!
-
MattJ
Thanks! I'll send minutes soon
- ralphm bangs gavel
-
jcbrand
Sorry for the silence, I have another meeting running in parallel. I did read everything though
-
MattJ
No worries, thanks :)
-
jcbrand
Next week I'm on holiday, but I'll have my phone with my and will try to join
-
jcbrand
arc: my monthly holiday
-
arc
You Europeans and your monthly holidays lol
-
arc
I envy you
-
emus
> ralphm wrote: > My take is: please just make a plan and execute. We have money and this is a good place to spend it. 👍
-
emus
> jonas’ wrote: > It would be nice if we could gain mailman3 eventually. +1
-
emus
> MattJ wrote: > That's partly blocked by our old hardware > Which is how this came up oh, ok I see
-
Zash
Just Do It!
-
emus
> MattJ wrote: > Right. We'll do as jonas’ suggested then, if nobody has an opinion or guidance at this stage. I prefer not cloud, but I am also the one with fewest knowledge here 🤷🏻♂️ In any way, if I can support this let me know. Besides, I was think of a general survey with xsf members. the hardware and service infrastructure could be one topic. but this is maybe overkill for this decision (but generally speaking good IMO)
-
emus
jcbrand: but do you have an opinion on the hardware stuff? MattJ: singpolyma might support with the hardware/hosting question, too (if you want more opinion) maybe a mail to members could give you an impression too. Happy to support again
-
moparisthebest
the only opinions that matter are the people actually supporting it, I wouldn't ask anyone else's opinion, at least broadly like that
-
Zash
Let's build a 300 node raspberry pi k8s cluster!!!!11!eleven /s
-
Guus
Cloud-based infra might give is more access / reduce dependency on the one person that has physical access, and will have less upfront costs. It tends to be more flexible, for what it's worth, with regards to resizing, and it can be more fault tolerant (assuming the cloud provider replaces broken instances automatically).
-
Zash
But email?
-
Guus
But email.
-
Zash
Hm, but email is probably orthogonal.
-
Kev
We know we've had basically no issue with mail from the bunker, my inclination would be to just replace atlas with another low-power server in the bunker and be done with it. Path of least resistance.
-
Guus
Generally speaking, I'd be in favour of outsourcing anything that we reasonably can to people dedicated to the service to be maintained. They probably have better qualifications and tooling, and it frees up our most scarce resource: brainpower.
-
emus
MattJ Zash: Whats your gut feeling what go for?
-
Zash
🤷️
-
Zash
Pancakes I think
-
emus
Guus: I would also not go against even its not my prefered solution. The only thing I expect is respect to privacy of the setup
-
Zash
For running public mailing lists?
-
emus
Zash: wouldnt be only public right? maybe then we can also.have member mails etc.? and would you like to have a service full of tracking?
-
emus
(not that I expect anyone.here will go for something like.this)
-
MattJ
There are private mailing lists and subscribers who join may not want to publicly disclose their subscription status (I don't know if this is a property that mailman has or not)
-
moparisthebest
what are we trying to protect against exactly? email isn't very private
-
emus
moparisthebest: at least tracking and ReCaptcha for subscription 😊
-
singpolyma
Can always just run your own subscription form with almost any mail provider. What kind of server used, or even full cloud services, isn't going to mandate any of that kind of tracking
-
emus
ok