XSF Discussion - 2022-07-28


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  143. emus One question on the MoM from yesterday: What is the topic "Security bounties"?
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  162. MattJ emus, the possibility that the XSF could have an official bug bounty program ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug_bounty_program ) for security issues in the XMPP protocol and maybe certain software projects
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  165. emus MattJ: ah then I got it right already. wasnt sure if it really was about bug bounty. I support this!
  166. emus Ge0rG: can you repeat the idea to automatically list the CVEs from all xeps? Was it as I stated?
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  173. wurstsalat I'd help with the website if that's necessary :)
  174. Ge0rG I'm not even sure any more what the perceived benefit was
  175. emus Ge0rG: well, a clear overview and centralized place to review what happened
  176. emus I assume?
  177. Kev The only benefit to anyone I see from a page listing CVEs for unrelated XMPP projects is so someone can link to it when they want to say "Look, XMPP software has lots of vulnerabilities", to be perfectly honest.
  178. emus I think that would go hand in hand with the bug bounty
  179. Kev I'm not arguing against CVEs.
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  181. emus if we want to track them.as well (which I still think.would be good practice, right?)
  182. Kev Do we have any CVEs against the protocol? I admit I didn't realise that was a thing.
  183. emus Ge0rG: ?
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  189. Ge0rG Kev: I'm pretty sure we don't, and I think that's not how CVEs work in general. We've had vulnerable protocols in the past (e.g. compression), but our solution was to deprecate them. We also have protocols that are CVE magnets, notably 0280/0313 and XHTML-IM
  190. Ge0rG IMHO the scary <cve> blocks in the XEPs, while technically not part of the protocol specification, are a good trade-off between notifying prospective developers of the challenges and making public how "horrible" our specs are ;)
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  197. emus Ge0rG: so you also dont want to track them centralized?
  198. Ge0rG emus: I don't remember what it would be good for
  199. emus Hmm, but as you said, isnt the idea to make such things public and easy to follow? like devs and others can subscribe to such a page for example. each time something pops up they will be notified?
  200. emus other opinions?
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  267. singpolyma There's no practical difference for privacy between owned hardware, leased hardware, and a VM anyway. People in the data centre can get at the server either way
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  269. jcbrand I think there is a practical difference if you have to physically access the hardware versus accessing data through cloud management software.
  270. Zash Virtualization has more attack surface. Bugs in hypervisors or even CPUs do happen.
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  272. Ge0rG And then the whole speculative fault execution mess
  273. singpolyma "cloud management software" = ssh. Full disk encryption does nothing while the server is powered on. I agree about VM attack surface that does sometimes happen
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  276. Ge0rG singpolyma: how would you extract data from a server that's powered on?
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  280. Zash I'm not convinced this would weigh much for our purposes tho.
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  284. singpolyma Ge0rG: oh I see, your argument is that to get in if it's well secured I have to do something that would interrupt operation. Probably true. Though that's true for full disk encryption in other cases too unless a backdoor was preinstalled when they setup for you
  285. Zash This very chat runs on a VM. 🤷️
  286. singpolyma Anyway, I'm not against people running their own hardware of course, but it's too much work to bother for most full-timers, nevermind volunteers so I think any small trade-offs point heavily to simplifying
  287. Ge0rG But the original question was about our mailing lists? Given that "we" are a US based 501c, we can't enforce the GDPR anyway in any reasonable manner, so we could as well rent some cloud service. Maybe there are list operators that are doing this for other (FOSS) communities?
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  290. singpolyma The mailing lists seem like a simple case? Can run basically anywhere, just need good IP rep or an SMTP relay for deliverability. Or are you meaning to stop running them and use "hosted mailing lists"?
  291. singpolyma Yeah. And IIRC they're all mailman2 already so no real benefit to changing that
  292. Ge0rG singpolyma: while mailman2 runs on its own, IP reputation doesn't
  293. flow isn't mailman2 deprecated, or soon to be?
  294. singpolyma Ge0rG: sure, so use an SMTP relay if that's a concern
  295. singpolyma flow: dunno. Mailman2 wasn't ready for prime time when I last looked
  296. Zash I'm certain I recently saw a post saying mailman3 would break all permalinks... so that seems fun
  297. singpolyma mailman2 is the stable one everyone uses. mailman3 is the rewrite
  298. flow fedora using mailman3 IIRC
  299. flow fedora is using mailman3 IIRC
  300. flow but I would be happy if we would use discourse, as I believe we need a central place that brings together developer, protocol architects *and* users
  301. emus flow: we have lemmy for a few months
  302. flow managing igniterealtime's discourse isntance is pretty low-maintenance
  303. singpolyma flow: yes, but it would be a big migration thing to move over to it from the current setup
  304. flow there is an alternative to migration
  305. Zash "don't" ? :)
  306. flow besides, I wouldn't be suprised if somebody hasn't already written a migration tool from mailman to discourse
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  308. flow Zash, no, freeze and conserve mailman, and then start over
  309. flow I would, but last time I suggested discourse, some voices where raised against it
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  311. flow so the problem is to find a tool that everyone can aggree on
  312. singpolyma emus: yes, we're just discussing what software to use for the maillists
  313. flow and that's it's terrible to find things there, if you aren't zash
  314. flow I think alone the fact that with discourse we could tag every discussion with the related XEPs would be a big win
  315. singpolyma Well, "the youth" mostly don't use message boards or email at all anymore, just chat, so MUC is perfect there
  316. emus I was suggesting an evaluation of services before deployment but that was not of interest 🤷🏻‍♂️
  317. singpolyma Lemmy is a platform for making multiple link aggregation communities
  318. flow clearly there are techies out there who don't like the appeal of mailman2 and would be happy to use a web based interface instead
  319. flow clearly there are techies out there who don't like the appeal of mailman2 (and mailing lists in general) and would be happy to use a web based interface instead
  320. flow clearly there are techies out there who don't like the appeal of mailman2 (and mailing lists in general) and would be happy to use a web-based interface instead
  321. flow and by sticking with mailing lists only, we don't reach those
  322. flow so it seems only sensible to pick a solution that provides both interfaces, that is, mailing list and web-based, to the discussion
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  325. singpolyma Sure. I said discourse would be better. But when the discussion started with "how do we make this easier" I think expanding the use case / doing the migration is asking for more work not less. Of course, nothing is up to me and I'll happily abide the decision of those doing the work
  326. flow I find it especially appealing that a web-based interface would also help XMPP users to report their issues, which would greatly help us with future protocol design
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  329. singpolyma flow: you'll just get people whining about their apps that way :P
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  331. flow and developers struggling with increasing the user experience can be directly directed to protocol architects
  332. flow singpolyma, that is right, and another reasons why user reports should happen at the same venue where developers and architects meet
  333. MSavoritias (fae,ve) What does matrix have? The chats?
  334. MSavoritias (fae,ve) I havent seen discourse being used much by any community that has adopted it personally
  335. MSavoritias (fae,ve) People stick to chats or some ticket system like github
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  337. Zash singpolyma, that what the kids call it these days?
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  339. flow Zash, hence I wrote "part of"
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  343. emus flow: having both is not a thing?
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  346. singpolyma Oh yeah, discord is chat again
  347. flow emus, clarify "both" please :)
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  349. emus Discourse and new mail setup
  350. Zash Two mailing lists?
  351. emus Zash: or can they run on the same database with different interfaces?
  352. flow emus, ideally, discourse is able to replace the mailing lists, so having both would be not an ideal solution, but if it's the only way we can have discourse, then it's better than nothing
  353. singpolyma Yeah, two mailing lists seems redundant
  354. singpolyma Twice as many emails! ;)
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  359. emus Ok, I though it can be run as just two interfaces and you just choose mail or discourse
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  361. moparisthebest yes, but that's just running discourse
  362. mathieui MSavoritias (fae,ve): I have seen community adopting discourse to some good level of success, I just stopped interacting with them because discourse is quite bad at replacing a mailing list, but I guess people like it
  363. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Wait discourse is supposed to replace a mailing list? Its horrible for that personally. Ui wise and functionality
  364. edhelas To me discourse is a no go :p
  365. MSavoritias (fae,ve) I thought we were talking about a forum thing
  366. singpolyma MSavoritias (fae,ve): if you use it via email UI should be the same
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  368. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Depends how its done then. In terms of compatibility between the too then
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  398. emus MSavoritias (fae,ve): we have Lemmy already
  399. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Thats my thought too. Discource seems too much effort for little gain
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  401. MSavoritias (fae,ve) I think lemmy has more chances to attract users to xmpp than a forum
  402. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Federation and stuff
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  410. flow https://lwn.net/Articles/901744/
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  416. moparisthebest lemmy doesn't do email though
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  425. jjrh https://discourse.slicer.org/t/using-discourse-as-a-mailing-list/67 looks like you can use discourse as a traditional mailing list
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  427. flow Oh, I guess I didn't make myself clear, as that is what I was trying to say all the time :)
  428. jjrh Only backing up your statement :)
  429. flow Discourse provides a web-based interface to the discussion, while addionally providing a mailing list based one
  430. flow Arguably the mailing list one is not exactly like mailman's interface
  431. flow but I guess it is enough to follow and engage in the conversation via mail
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  437. jjrh I think the problem with mailing lists is they are increasingly used less by new projects and thus are new to younger people and sometimes intimidating. It also requires one to setup mail filters to avoid having your inbox get flooded.
  438. Zash This feels like a thing that could be done with one click if someone at $EmailVendor cared enough to implement it.
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  441. jjrh Sure, but no one has.
  442. Zash This = create folder and a filter rule for email with the current List-Id
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  445. benk > This = create folder and a filter rule for email with the current List-Id I do this
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  447. Zash Did you make a button in your email client to do that in a single click?
  448. moparisthebest I don't mind mailing lists but ours are totally broken, I know mailman3 has all the knobs to fix them, I don't know if mailman2 does, but discourse does things correctly out of the box
  449. moparisthebest and by broken, I mean don't deliver to anyone implementing decade old mail standards
  450. singpolyma moparisthebest: that's a mailserver concern
  451. moparisthebest singpolyma, no it's not, the mailing list software can't modify bodies
  452. moparisthebest well, it can't modify bodies and also send from an email it doesn't own, it has to pick one or the other
  453. singpolyma moparisthebest: you mean headers? DKIM doesn't usually secure the body? But yeah, you just add a sender header and can keep everything else the same. Standard practise at any SMTP relay
  454. moparisthebest DKIM signs the body, you either have to not modify the body and just add the List-Id header *or* do whatever you want with the body, modify the From, and sign it with your own DKIM key
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  456. moparisthebest our current mailing lists modify the body and leave the signature causing messages not to be delivered to the majority of recipients
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  461. singpolyma moparisthebest: you don't have to modify from. You add a sender header and re-sign. Again, standard practise at any competent SMTP relay so don't need special support in the mailing list software
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  463. moparisthebest quick search has everyone configuring mailman for it so https://nanoy.fr/post/dkim-and-mailman3/ https://wiki.list.org/DEV/DKIM
  464. moparisthebest but that's fine, just pointing out our current solution doesn't work well
  465. singpolyma Sure, they're probably not using a relay and just using vanilla postfix or something
  466. singpolyma But yeah, managing an outgoing mailserver is a thing. It's not impossible, but if we want to reduce work then outsourcing *that* is probably a good move
  467. singpolyma Mailgun or someone normal that does this all day long
  468. singpolyma Keep inbound with a vanilla mailserver because rep and such aren't an issue for inbound, probably
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  481. root I am kind of walking into this conversation halfway through (read up the last roughly 120 messages) so I may be a little lost on what's happening, but is the current idea(s) to move infrastructure (website, mail, chats,?) to something different? How are things set up currently? What is the aim, exactly? I gather obviously something that requires less maintenance by the XSF, but also encourages engagement? What am I missing?
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  484. Kev The mail server's on old hardware that needs replacing. That's the fundamental desire.
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  486. moparisthebest if I understand correctly, the current infrastructure is super ancient and can't be upgraded, and also lives in a bunker where we may or may not be able to contact hands there to fix things if they go wrong, so the conversation is really 2 independent decisions: 1. new hardware there or elsewhere, or "the cloud", or whatever 2. what to do with mailing lists
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  488. Kev From my PoV, the bunker's treated us very well, hasn't given us any significant issues, and there's no reason to move away from it for its own sake.
  489. Kev There may be reasons to do something that isn't the bunker, but not because it's not the bunker.
  490. Zash Nothing says we have to have everything in the same place.
  491. Zash We already don't.
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  493. Kev Indeed.
  494. root Ok. On discourse, can't really say I have used it much, but to me as a user where I have seen it implemented, and tried to use it, it was a PIA, didn't help that ad/script blockers hate it too. But to me it felt scetchy trying to make contact with the site's team/community, most often I just left and didn't return. Perhaps some of those issues are mine, as well the sites I saw using them were not Foss communities.
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  496. moparisthebest root, so you were trying to use it in the browser as a forum and not as a mailing list ?
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  499. root moparisthebest: that is correct. I did not know until today it had that functionality, but I have never researched either, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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