XSF Discussion - 2022-08-11

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  227. emus

    We just realized that at least one member was not on the XSF members list. If you are member haven't yesterday received an email via that maillist you should ask iTeam possibly Alex: fyi

  228. emus

    We just realized that at least one member was not on the XSF members list. If you are member and haven't yesterday received an email via that maillist you should ask iTeam possibly Alex: fyi

  229. Alex

    emus, can you send me more details? Will fix then

  230. emus

    wurstsalat: ^

  231. flow

    hmm I think I am not on the members list

  232. flow

    at least I did not receive an email

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  234. emus

    related thread: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/members/2022-August/009429.html

  235. emus


  236. emus

    general threads

  237. Alex

    flow: fixed your address

  238. flow

    Alex, thanks :)

  239. emus

    Cleanup in the morning 🥰🧹

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  380. wurstsalat

    Sam, re: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/1161 I am very much opposed to adding new fields to {clients,servers,libraries}.json I remember we discussed this here some time ago, and it was the sentiment that we should rather have less keys in these json files than more. As you are aware, DOAP files do offer a logo section, so this would be another duplicate ("os" being the other duplicate). I offer my help for anyone struggling to create a DOAP file for their project

  381. Sam

    I cannot create a DOAP file with my static site generator and it's not documented anywhere so I don't want to maintain one manually.

  382. Sam

    I don't need help, I just don't want to be a second class citizen on the site because we insist on overcomplicating everything.

  383. Sam

    If you're volunteering to maintain a doap file for my project for all time I suppose I really appreciate that, but it seems unsustainable since you'll probably get burned out at some point.

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  385. wurstsalat

    Sam, the idea is to maintain your doap file manually (which is machine-readable), and render it on your (static) website, like here for exaple: https://gajim.org/support/extensions/

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  387. Sam

    As I said, it's not documented so I don't really want to do that.

  388. singpolyma

    Sam: in what way is it not documented? Does the spec not count as documentation?

  389. Sam

    What spec? I looked everywhere and no one could link me to one

  390. Sam

    I just got "read the code" a lot.

  391. wurstsalat


  392. Sam

    oh, fair enough, that problem was solved at least, my bad

  393. Sam

    This must have happened after the last time I complained that "read the code" isn't acceptable, I really appreciate that

  394. Sam

    Still, this format is garbage and I don't want it on my site. I previously had my thing listed by something on the XSF site and I'd like to keep doing that.

  395. mathieui

    Sam: at some point you will have to admit that you simply do not want to write a simple XML file because you have an opposition of principle, and that is fine and nobody will force you to do it, but please don't try to limit what people want to do with it just because you do not like it

  396. Sam

    Yes, I admit that, this is garbage that hurts the ecosystem and community and I am absolutely opposed to it. I'm not just complaining though, I tried to come upw ith a reasonable alternative.

  397. mathieui

    ("Garbage" is all very subjective)

  398. Sam

    Sure, but I've given all the many reasons I think this is a terrible idea that we shouldn't be doing (or at least shouldn't be doing without alternatives, if people want to do doap files for their stuff that's obviously none of my business)

  399. Sam

    Anyways, I provided a PR so that we can have fewer projects that look ugly and have no icon on the website, I'm not interested in re-litigating why doap is a bad idea, I have obviously lost that fight.

  400. Zash

    What if the intent is to encourage adoption of doap?

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  402. Sam

    Could be; obviously I'm not going to, maybe everyone else will. In the mean time I'd still like my project to look nice and have the ability to have the nice features like the icon the others have.

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  406. wurstsalat

    Does it stop with a logo though?

  407. MattJ

    I don't know if maintaining an additional format for one project is worth it

  408. Sam

    We already maintain two formats.

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  411. MattJ

    We have the list, yeah, and you're wanting to duplicate everything in DOAP into that

  412. Sam

    I don't know if it stops with the logo or not, that's the only new feature I can see on the website, so I suppose that's it. Maybe if we add other info from the DOAP later it will also be necessary to add it to the json, depends what it is

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  415. wurstsalat

    As I said, I'm opposed to adding new keys to these json files

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  422. wurstsalat

    You're in fact moving the maintenance burden, since you don't have to maintain a DOAP file, but I have to account for all duplicates there are..

  423. Sam

    I'm moving it? You just moved the maintenance burden to me, I'm just shifting it slightly back for a single key and like a 2 line patch.

  424. Sam

    Anyways, doesn't matter, I appreciate you letting me know. I still think if we're going to do this DOAP nonsense at least the basics need to be in both places for projects that don't have it.

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  459. emus

    > Sam wrote: > I don't know if it stops with the logo or not, that's the only new feature I can see on the website, so I suppose that's it. Maybe if we add other info from the DOAP later it will also be necessary to add it to the json, depends what it is That was the statement and question of the mail (where also the link to doap xep has been placed btw). We want to expand the information for users based on doap.

  460. emus

    > Sam wrote: > Anyways, doesn't matter, I appreciate you letting me know. I still think if we're going to do this DOAP nonsense at least the basics need to be in both places for projects that don't have it. We left the json as it is for years if I see correctly. The new rendering features base on the xep standard.

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  467. emus

    Sam: Why isn't it okay to place a doap with four entries? Name, url, url_logo, os? Likely no need to maintain, right?

  468. MattJ

    emus, give up. Sam hates angle brackets, and we've had this discussion too many times :)

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  470. Sam

    Look, I tried to do this reasonably and just submit a fix. If it's not wanted, fair enough. I obviously can't talk about it reasonably without going on a rant so I'd rather not have this discussion again.

  471. emus


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  477. MattJ

    My view of the situation is: we have consistently (for years) struggled to maintain the software listings. Shifting more responsibility to project maintainers is a good thing. We needed a format to describe a project, and rather than invent one we used one that's already been made and deployed. It happened to use XML. That's apparently enough for a small number of people (1?) to object to using it. That's fine, we agreed we're definitely not going to ignore software projects that don't provide the additional metadata. Does that mean we should continue to expand our existing ad-hoc JSON with all the additional stuff? I don't think that's worth the initial or ongoing maintenance effort for one project.

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  481. MattJ

    I'm not strictly opposed to adding fallback code for logo, but I really don't think it could stop there if we added XEP support comparisons, etc.

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  488. emus

    MattJ: +1

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  507. moparisthebest

    my 2 cents: one fallback will never be enough, write a DOAP file or don't have your project listed on xmpp.org, just list it elsewhere ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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  511. MattJ

    I think there's value in being able to list projects that don't (e.g. yet) have DOAP available, in some form

  512. moparisthebest

    for a limited amount of time imho

  513. MattJ

    I'm pessimistic that we can manage 100% DOAP for all projects that we'd want to list on the site

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  516. Ge0rG

    would it make sense to convert the (minimal) info that is there into a (minimal) DOAP file hosted on xmpp.org, and to either accept PRs from the project (for the minimal data) or to require them to host their own DOAP with more data?

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  518. moparisthebest

    then we don't list them, oh well, there's all sorts of XMPP projects not listed there, always will be

  519. Ge0rG

    the devil's advocate claims that listing your project on xmpp.org is a privilege, not a right.

  520. MattJ

    It's the "oh well" that I'm uncomfortable with. Regardless of why they don't have DOAP, I think we lose value if we can't list them at all.

  521. moparisthebest

    it clearly is a privelege as opposed to a right, I'm sure a XMPP project could exist that we would refuse to list :P

  522. MattJ

    Ge0rG, I don't think you're wrong, but from the perspective of "we want xmpp.org to be useful" I think that doesn't help us achieve the goals

  523. MattJ

    and yeah, I think we've discussed hosting DOAPs for projects before

  524. moparisthebest

    DOAP's don't actually have to come from the project/maintainer right? like if project X was particularly useful and didn't have one, I could host it at mydomain/x.doap ?

  525. MattJ


  526. Ge0rG

    so what about: a) we host a barely minimal DOAP for projects that somebody volunteers to keep listed (in form of a PR) with minimal QA or b) a project hosts their own DOAP

  527. moparisthebest

    then why add fallback for non-doap, you aren't actually restricting anything

  528. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: that's technically possible but I think that control over the DOAP should be either with the XSF or the project maintainer, not third parties

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  537. moparisthebest

    that also seems fine

  538. MattJ

    No, we never were restricting anything. The problem isn't "where to host the DOAP" but who will create and maintain the DOAP. We have a non-zero number of people who seem reluctant to do either, and I don't think it should be up to the XSF's web team to keep that up to date (which hasn't gone well in the past).

  539. moparisthebest

    right, so that makes the rule simple, if you want a project listed there, write your own DOAP or find someone to do it for you, or don't have it listed

  540. Ge0rG

    MattJ: so the two positions are "the XSF web team wants a certain project listed" vs "the XSF web team doesn't have the capacity to maintain a full-fledged DOAP of that project"?

  541. lovetox

    why would anyone maintain a DOAP beside the project maintainer

  542. lovetox

    that sounds insane

  543. Ge0rG

    lovetox: please don't

  544. MattJ

    lovetox, because the project maintainer refuses to, yet we still want to provide info about this project on xmpp.org

  545. MattJ

    We basically have that fallback for projects with no DOAP already, but it doesn't support logos

  546. MattJ

    and we also want to extend the site to include additional info about projects, so this will only become more painful

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  550. moparisthebest

    so the XSF can host DOAPs for projects people want listed where the project doesn't have one, if no one is willing to create one, then no project listed, easy

  551. Ge0rG

    this is a slippery slope, isn't it?

  552. moparisthebest

    less slippery than all the code required to add json fallbacks

  553. MattJ

    Yeah, it might be the best route

  554. Zash

    Hardball it! Trade: DOAP in exchange for nice listing.

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  557. MattJ

    It's not too bad if we just have to host a static file for people who use static site generators that don't support static files

  558. Zash

    Definitely require DOAP for if/when we show calculated compliance listings based on DOAP XEP info.

  559. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I think the challenge is in accepting PRs to those static files whenever something dynamic happens, and vetting whether the PR came from the respective project (which we already do (not do) for the JSON anyway=

  560. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I think the challenge is in accepting PRs to those static files whenever something dynamic happens, and vetting whether the PR came from the respective project (which we already do (not do) for the JSON anyway)

  561. MattJ

    Zash, sure, that comes automatically from "let's not add more JSON fallbacks"

  562. Zash

    Where to draw the line tho? name, description, logo?

  563. MattJ

    The question is whether we want to maintain *that* info in DOAPs hosted by us

  564. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, PRs to those static files will explicitly *not* come from the respective project

  565. moparisthebest

    if the project was willing to create a DOAP, they'd do it themselves

  566. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: I'm not sure about that.

  567. Ge0rG

    there will be projects not willing to create, but maybe also not willing/able to host

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  570. Zash

    And what kind of static site generator can't serve a static file?

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  572. moparisthebest

    it's just about project maintainers unreasonably refusing to create a DOAP

  573. Ge0rG

    it's not a static file generator.

  574. Zash

    I observe that a bunch of projects just point directly at their version control

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  577. Zash

    I'm referring to > I cannot create a DOAP file with my static site generator and it's not documented anywhere so I don't want to maintain one manually.

  578. moparisthebest

    imho that's why they should just be excluded, but allowing others to do it for them is a reasonable alternative

  579. Ge0rG

    it's really interesting to see how much time can be spent collectively, repeatedly, because one person refuses to spend a bit of time.

  580. moparisthebest

    that's why I originally suggested just not putting them on there :) their choice

  581. MattJ

    Well, it's going to continue draining our collective time unless we decide on a policy for the future

  582. Ge0rG

    Next step is: we need a Board decision what hoops a project has to jump through to be listed.

  583. Zash

    Wasn't there a goal to get rid of the annual "renewal" things and replace the decision with something DOAP-based?

  584. MattJ

    I'm leaning towards just hosting basic DOAPs for projects, but none of the advanced stuff (XEP support, etc.) because that's too much of a burden to maintain

  585. Ge0rG

    MattJ: +1 on that

  586. lovetox

    question: our DOAP changes regulary, i would not like if i have to update it on the xsf site, could i not supply somehow a link to our doap and the website pulls it every week or something?

  587. Ge0rG

    there is really no point to re-invent the DOAP fields in legacy JSON

  588. MattJ

    lovetox, that's exactly how it's supposed to work

  589. Ge0rG

    lovetox: that's the default

  590. MattJ

    We're discussing people who refuse to do that

  591. lovetox

    ah cool, then continue :D

  592. Ge0rG

    lovetox: hosting DOAP on xmpp.org is an _option_ for projects that can't afford hosting an XML file

  593. MattJ

    So I guess it just remains for wurstsalat to reveal whether this is feasible (providing basic in-repo DOAP files for certain projects). I'm assuming it wouldn't be too hard.

  594. moparisthebest

    right, that seems reasonable, and XSF folks should just click merge, if it's incorrect anyone who cares can fix, and if the project maintainer didn't want incorrect info in there they should host their own

  595. moparisthebest

    it's just a URL right? presumably script doesn't care where it's hosted

  596. Ge0rG

    bonus points for relative links?

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  598. wurstsalat

    > providing basic in-repo DOAP files for certain projects should be easy to do but where to start? add all non-outdated non-doap packages? add all which have been updated at some point, discard the rest?

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  600. Ge0rG

    wurstsalat: add mellium because of the logo right now. then maybe later migrate all the JSON data into mini DOAPs and get rid of the JSON code, if possible

  601. MattJ

    It's up to you. We could even just do it for this one project for now (due to the logo request), and decide on the others (port or drop) at a later date

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  603. Ge0rG

    I think the `last_renewed` question is still unsolved with DOAP, right?

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  605. MattJ


  606. Ge0rG

    so the JSON _at least_ has to contain `doap` and `last_renewed`

  607. MattJ

    I think we'll phase out the last_renewed logic eventually

  608. Ge0rG

    so it doesn't make any sense to _move_ from JSON to DOAP

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  610. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I fought hard to get it in!

  611. Ge0rG

    I won't oppose to moving it into DOAP though

  612. MattJ

    Yeah, but admit, it was always a proxy for "is this a good modern XMPP project?"

  613. lovetox

    for the minimal doap, i guess you dont need to list xeps, only project information, and thats ver likely to stay correct a very long time

  614. MattJ

    and I think DOAP makes other (better) signals available to deduce that

  615. Ge0rG

    MattJ: bummer, yeah. So if we get Compliance Suite status, I'm fine with removing `last_renewed`

  616. MattJ


  617. Ge0rG

    That's actually a great way forward.

  618. wurstsalat

    alright :)

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  620. wurstsalat

    I just integrated Zash's `compliancer` last week, so compliance data isn't far away

  621. MattJ

    So the change *right now* is minimal: just add support for in-repo DOAP, port Mellium to that, add the logo

  622. moparisthebest

    I would remove mellium and have whoever actually wants it listed there do it :P

  623. MattJ

    Our goal is having a useful website, not arguing about whose job it is to make it useful :)

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  725. singpolyma

    This discussion reminds me a lot of how like half the apps in fdroid have no logo listed because the requirements are a bit weird and some projects just don't bother 🤷‍♂️

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  751. MattJ

    singpolyma, and the conclusion is that we'll host it for them, all they need to provide is a URL. Is that too much bother?

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  756. singpolyma

    MattJ: no idea, just surprising to me how little projects care sometimes. I mean, I do get it, some of my "basically just for me" projects don't even have a readme, all depends I guess

  757. singpolyma

    I have no stake in this decision since I'd doesn't affect me on either side, but it's interesting that the issue isn't isolated to any one community or format or publisher

  758. singpolyma

    I have no stake in this decision since it doesn't affect me on either side, but it's interesting that the issue isn't isolated to any one community or format or publisher

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