XSF Discussion - 2022-09-21


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  220. Tobias What is the recommended way to update an experimental XEP? Like changing something REQUIRED to OPTIONAL and stuff like that? Can it just be updated? Should it be discussed on the mailing list?
  221. Daniel are you the author?
  222. Tobias yes
  223. Daniel most people would probably just update it
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  227. Tobias alright :)
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  230. MattJ If it's one of those widely implemented but still experimental ones, I definitely recommend at least notifying the list about the planned changes
  231. MattJ If it's just something that has sat idle with no implementations and you're trying to revive it, just go for it
  232. Tobias i don't know of any SIMS implementation
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  234. MattJ Well, doesn't hurt to post to the list and find out :)
  235. Tobias ture
  236. Tobias true will do that
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  239. Link Mauve Tobias, I wrote one for Dino once, but they left it bitrot for e2ee reasons IIRC.
  240. Link Mauve Tobias, are you aware of XEP-0447?
  241. Tobias yes
  242. Tobias Link Mauve, it's mostly about dropping the REQUIREMENT for description in the info and making it OPTIONAL, as UX wise it seems horrible to require a description for each attachment
  243. Link Mauve Tobias, what are your thought about SIMS vs. XEP-0447?
  244. flow fwiw, I don't like breaking changes of experimental xeps without namespace bumps. Tobias: do you plan to bump?
  245. Link Mauve flow, this sounds minor enough tbh, I doubt any existing implementation will break on the description not being filled.
  246. Link Mauve Tobias, OTOH, it’s quite useful to ask senders to provide basically an @alt text for accessibility reasons.
  247. Tobias i think the main differences are 1. ( using Out-of-Band Data (XEP-0066) instead of References for referring to URLs and passing the jingle ID via XML instead of URI) and 2. not using references and mixed content. The instruction make it appear there are more significant differences but I think it boils down to not using references (which I can understand). Having File Info in a dedicated XEP is certainly useful. But if that's only used by a single XEP there is little value to have it distinct.
  248. flow Link Mauve, well if something was previously required and now suddenly is not, then implementations could be expected that enforce the existing of the (previously) required data
  249. Tobias yeah..i was wondering whether to bump the namespace or not...if there were others implementing it i'd say sure...but if not and it's just experimental anysay
  250. Tobias yeah..i was wondering whether to bump the namespace or not...if there were others implementing it i'd say sure...but if not and it's just experimental anyway
  251. Link Mauve Tobias, a future version of XEP-0234 should certainly use 0446 as well.
  252. Tobias yup
  253. flow it's just experimental is rarely a good justification, it has been out there for a long time
  254. Daniel flow, while you are here. After having implemented XEP-0440: SASL Channel-Binding Type Capability I think the <sasl-channel-binding/> element should become a direct stream feature instead of a child of sasl2 mechanisms. sasl 2 and sasl 1 will co-exist for quite a while and this removes the overhead of having to announce it twice
  255. Link Mauve Tobias, I think Movim was another implementation.
  256. flow in any case, we should agree on some rules (even if those are rules I personally do not agree with) and explicitly spell them out
  257. Tobias probably makes sense to write to the ML to see if there are other implementations and ask if there are other things people feel that need updating in the XEP
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  259. flow Daniel, ahh I remember MattJ contacting me with the same: personally I wouldn't design it that way, I wonder if we couldn't do something like: if both sasl1 and sasl2 are there, then the channel binding information may appear only in one element
  260. Daniel lol that's worse
  261. flow that way, if we ever reach a state of sasl2 only, it will be a part of sasl2 element
  262. flow Daniel, personally I think it is worse to not bundle an element which is absolutely related to sasl, not to sasl
  263. flow that is, you will never have a channel-binding element without a sasl element
  264. MattJ It's not *necessarily* strictly related to SASL
  265. MattJ and it's definitely shared between all SASL versions
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  267. flow MattJ, could you elaborate how channel binding is not related to sasl?
  268. MattJ But if we (for some weird reason) came up with some non-SASL authentication protocol that could also take advantage of channel binding, it could easily apply to that too
  269. flow that appears to be a far fetched argument
  270. MattJ Supported channel binding methods are properties of something that is actually not the SASL implementation in reality
  271. MattJ At least today they are mostly properties of the TLS layer
  272. Daniel sasl1 going away is simply not very realistic. and I much prefer the bandwidth saving of any perceived syntactical cleanliness
  273. MattJ So it seems perfectly natural to me to say "this is what the server supports" outside of any specific SASL protocol
  274. Daniel sasl1 going away is simply not very realistic. and I much prefer the bandwidth saving over any perceived syntactical cleanliness
  275. MattJ SASL1 is definitely not going anywhere any time soon, but there will be SASL2-only servers (I plan this for Snikket, for example)
  276. MattJ It's unnecessarily complex for clients to have to check multiple places for the same info
  277. MattJ and it's an unnecessary waste of bytes to duplicate the exact same info for no reason
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  279. flow that last one is easily agreeable :)
  280. flow I don't have a super strong opinion on that. it doesn't appear to be super complex to lookup sthe sasl-channel-binding information in two places, but if this is to much to ask from client developers then we can put it into the stream:features root
  281. flow I don't have a super strong opinion on that. it doesn't appear to be super complex to lookup the sasl-channel-binding information in two places, but if this is to much to ask from client developers then we can put it into the stream:features root
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  285. MattJ This is how I implemented it in Prosody as soon as I added SASL2 support, and multiple client developers independently arrived at the same conclusion. I definitely think it's the best option, and doesn't have any downsides.
  286. Daniel > This is how I implemented it in Prosody as soon as I added SASL2 support, and multiple client developers independently arrived at the same conclusion. I definitely think it's the best option, and doesn't have any downsides. 👍
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  289. Daniel flow, do you want me to create a PR with those changes?
  290. flow sure, go ahead
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  425. Daniel flow, your own xeps calls them stream-features https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0440.html
  426. Daniel :-)
  427. Daniel but I can change all of them if you want?
  428. flow Daniel, the existing ones are multipe-word adjectives that are hyphenated
  429. Daniel i don’t know the difference but I've applied your suggested changes
  430. flow Daniel, the existing ones are multiple-word adjectives that are hyphenated
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  432. flow thanks
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  470. Guus What is an appropriate way to provide feedback of a certain proprietary characteristic of a newly established stream in S2S? I was thinking of broadcasting a customer stream feature, but that's mostly aimed at negotiating things, which isn't really the case here. Service Discovery?
  471. MattJ Stream features can be used for things that aren't negotiation, for example servers can provide caps hashes there
  472. MattJ So if what you want to advertise is a feature of the stream, I think that's fine
  473. MattJ If it's a feature of the server or the account, disco#info is also fine
  474. Guus it specifically relates to a stream
  475. Guus Thanks
  476. MattJ Then it sounds like a stream feature is the way
  477. Link Mauve Re caps hashes, XEP-0390 has a way to advertise those directly on the stream, see example 4.
  478. MattJ Yeah, that's what I was referring to
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  492. Zash Did it have a way to advertise caps hashes of e.g. components etc?
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  517. ralphm waves
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  519. ralphm jcbrand, MattJ, arc around?
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  524. MattJ o/
  525. MattJ On a call atm
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  527. ralphm MattJ: no matter. Are there any topic we need to discuss soonish?
  528. ralphm s
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  551. MattJ ralphm, I don't think there is anything urgent on my radar. I did want to raise something: there is an IETF meeting coming up in London, and it is looking likely that there will be a BoF for the new messaging interoperability working group that folk are trying to get started. I was wondering if the XSF would be able to support my attendance expenses. I don't *think* this has been done traditionally, but I'm self-employed and don't work for $<big corp>, and yet I think my attendance would be valuable to the XSF.
  552. ralphm When is it?
  553. MattJ November
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  556. ralphm Ok, so 1) yes, I think the XSF should support that, 2) I might also go
  557. MattJ Double yay :)
  558. emus I would support such expense refunds, even I cannot decide on this. I think it worth to show we are interested and present
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  561. Zash IIRC the XSF covered me when I went to IETF in London
  562. emus 👍👍👍
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  565. emus I would also suggets to call for input/questions from the community
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  573. ralphm I haven't really read up on this WG, yet, but that seems reasonable. That said, everyone can participate in IETF meetings remotely, too.
  574. MattJ The BoF request is still pending, here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bofreq-cooper-more-instant-messaging-interoperability/
  575. MattJ I participated in the IETF 114 session remotely. It was... terrible.
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  577. MattJ That was mostly because it was in a room not set up for remote participation, and hopefully that won't be the case this time around if it gets approved
  578. jcbrand Hi
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  583. jcbrand Sounds like a good idea 👍
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  596. ralphm I guess that settles it
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  730. mjk > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bofreq-cooper-more-instant-messaging-interoperability/ it's quite amusing, although probably not surprising, that the only occurance of the word 'matrix' on that page is not a proper noun, but refers to the same concept that gave Matrix its proper noun :)
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