XSF Discussion - 2022-10-07


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  171. Trung Please excuse for my lack of knowledge if this topic has been discuss before. I have a couple of questions that relates to spreading the use of XMPP: 0. Does the user of XMPP has to know about XMPP in order to use it for instant messaging? 1. If Electronic Mail have a URI shorten down to `mailto:`, why does XMPP which is supposed to be the standard for Instant Messaging is shorten down to `xmpp:`? 2. Can we change it? If we can't change it since it has already been implemented in many software, can we add an alias ? 3. If it is possible to add such an alias, can we go for something with less syllables that can be easily and quickly pronouced in every human language? My suggestion is adding an alias for XMPP as `chatto:` or even just `chat:`. But I don't know enough about XMPP and standards and where else it is used so…
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  191. pep. 0. A user certainly doesn't have to know about the protocol. There's many examples of that in the wild already. Mostly closed silos. 1. I don't know. I guess because there was no other name for it at the time (or rather, they didn't want to reuse 'jabber' which had just been trademark'd?) 2. Can we change it? Maybe? We can certainly have software understand multiple schemes for the same protocol. 3. That'll depend on individual projects to implement it, but there can be a push from the community for it. https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml
  192. mjk Trung: ditching `xmpp:` definitely wouldn't fly, but adding things is always possible. that'd probably be IETF's business rather than XSF, though (disclaimer: I'm affiliated with neither). strictly speaking, the `mailto:` URI scheme sticks out like a sore thumb, because it describes an intent, which URI schemes, in general, arent. `chat:` is another matter tho
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  194. pep. I personally don't think the scheme matters at all. People use https:// just fine
  195. pep. Or don't use it, rather
  196. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Yeah. I dont think many people are seeing mailto: links anyways
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  198. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Just a button most of the time
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  200. mjk they're just sufficiently trained :) http(s) is _everywhere_, to the point of people thinking "link == https"
  201. pep. Browsers are making lots of effort not to show these also
  202. pep. And one can type in a url without the scheme and it'll land. Worst case, google will find it for you..
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  209. Zash meanwhile, http: and https:
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  211. Trung Sure. http: and http: and even ws: and wss: has no problem because browsers are all following this standard. Meanwhile, mailto:user@domain.org and xmpp:user@domain.org looks very similar but use completely different software and protocol and user experience.
  212. Trung Crawler can't get to this link I think: https://chat.trung.fun/dang-ky?t=62MUmG9zF21_lIvSPSWr0sgH
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  216. mdosch My wife and my parents don't know what xmpp is and are using it, so users don't need to know what protocol they are using. But I agree that a snappy name for the eco system is missing nowadays. Previously Jabber was used…
  217. Trung if in the invite link above, I change `xmpp:user@domain.org` to `im:user@domain.org` or someth along that line, will there be some sort of police force that comes knocking on my door?
  218. Menel You can do what you want there
  219. Menel But clients won't understand it
  220. mjk im: is a different uri scheme tho (the syntax is different, afaik)
  221. mjk and yea, most importantly, it's not associated with xmpp clients :)
  222. Trung yeh that's why i'm throwing the topic here Menel. 😁
  223. pep. If you want to do this by the rules, follow the iana link I sent above
  224. pep. Otherwise nothing prevents clients from experimenting
  225. Menel If you write a clients, or change them to react on that, then if will work for your contacts that use your specific client.
  226. Menel I wouldn't mind if conversations would try to react on that..
  227. mjk wait a minute... https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/perm/jabber
  228. Menel Would be even nicer if some think like thunderbird or Firefox would react on xmpp:
  229. mjk Menel: as long as the scheme is registered in the system, browsers in general try to handle it (at least Firefox)
  230. mjk Menel: as long as the scheme is registered in the system, browsers in general try to pass it on (at least Firefox)
  231. Trung ok I understand. Thank you everybody. I'll leave <a href="xmpp:user@domain.org">` as it is and will change the content to `im:`.
  232. Menel Uh, so I've some file somewehe where I can enter that? Good to know
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  234. Trung sorry the link is in Vietnamese, I don't know enough Lua to mess about with the module yet.
  235. jonas’ Trung, fwiw, that may be confusing though, if people based on your (visual) example try to use im: and it doesn't work
  236. jonas’ so rather stay with the standard I guess
  237. mjk Menel: on freedesktop systems, you just register and app as a handler of, say, x-scheme-handler/xmpp MIME type. on windows, you add `xmpp` somewhere into registry
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  239. mjk Menel: on freedesktop systems, you just register an app as a handler of, say, x-scheme-handler/xmpp MIME type. on windows, you add `xmpp` somewhere into registry
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  241. pep. The thing with schemes other than https? is that they don't matter anyway as long as web is the norm. It's almost impossible to leave a browser with another scheme. Chrome filters xmpp, and many others
  242. pep. (Or rather it allows quite a small set)
  243. Trung yeah I know it will cause confusion that's why we might want to discuss it and add it to the book before start implementation. But honestly, xmpp: means gibberish in human language doesn't matter which country you are coming from. People won't spread gibberish if they can't even pronouce the thing properly.
  244. Zash Changing the scheme now would just cause problems.
  245. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Also jabber is worse imo
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  247. Zash I also don't see what the problem is.
  248. MSavoritias (fae,ve) I wouldnt mention either
  249. pep. I say the scheme doesn't matter. As I said above, "http" is used every day and nobody complains. It's invisible to most and people call that "web" anyway
  250. mjk pep.: for me, chromium asks if I wanna open the link with the external app (and says its name), no filtering 🤷️
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  252. Zash `<a href="xmpp:alice@example.com">💬️ chat with Alice</a>`
  253. Zash Problem solved.
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  255. jonas’ ^ +1
  256. mjk > and says its name that is xdg-open!
  257. Zash or https://yax.im/i/#bob@example.com
  258. pep. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/registerProtocolHandler#browser_compatibility
  259. Trung the problem is user@domain.org means emails to most people.
  260. pep. Looks like Chrome does.. but not on android? And other things also don't support it
  261. pep. Woah, matrix: even is supported.. :/
  262. Trung and most people now relate user@domain.org to user@gmail.com or user@outlook.com
  263. Trung s/relate/have/
  264. mjk pep.: Navigator.registerProtocolHandler is a different thing from what I was talking about, it allows registering http urls to handle schemes in-browser
  265. Menel Hide it as a browser button seems a good choice
  266. pep. Yeah it's handy for movim, libervia, etc.
  267. pep. But you're right
  268. Menel mjk: thanks. Will add it there
  269. Link Mauve mjk, please not xdg-open, that shell script doesn’t implement XDG specs, you should instead use a proper tool like `gio open`.
  270. mjk Menel: it should probably be there already. :) when you install, e.g., Gajim, Firefox will start asking if you wanna open the xmpp link in Gajim
  271. mjk Link Mauve: tell that to Google, I guess
  272. Link Mauve I don’t speak much with Google.
  273. mjk idfk why does it ask me to open xmpp with xdg-open
  274. mjk Link Mauve: me neither, so, local patching it is!.. oh wait, I don't have a computer that can build it, nvm
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  283. MSavoritias (fae,ve) > pep.: > Woah, matrix: even is supported.. :/ Makes sense matrix paid them to move to madric and they wanted to support it
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  286. mjk madric :D
  287. MSavoritias (fae,ve) XD oups
  288. mjk I thought it was intentional
  289. MSavoritias (fae,ve) No :D
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  297. Trung I found `im:` here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_URI_schemes
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  299. Trung it also has `xmpp:` in the note section which myself am now confused lol
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  304. mjk that note _is_ confusing
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  306. wurstsalat > At the time this document was written, numerous instant messaging protocols were in use, and little interoperability between services based on these protocols has been achieved. (2004)
  307. mjk (<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3860.html>)
  308. mjk (which doesn't mention xmpp at all)
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  310. MattJ See RFC 3923
  311. MattJ See RFC 3922
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  313. MattJ And history is currently repeating itself, as the IETF is trying to spin up a new IM interoperability initiative
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  315. Zash all this has happened before, and all will happen again, and again, and again
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  328. Trung ok… for now I'll leave my inivte page as it is then. =]]]]
  329. mjk hopefully, this time is a bit different, given the current regulational background
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  334. mjk > presentity RFCian is a weird language
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  347. MattJ mjk: hopefully, indeed. I'm not holding my breath 🙂
  348. MattJ There is no indication of the regulations mandating any specific tech or standard, so currently as long as the giants publish some form of accessible (but proprietary) API, they can comply
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  350. MattJ And there is no indication that any of them are interested in whatever the IETF comes up with
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  352. mjk yeah. the MIMI authors seem to merely express the hope themselves :D
  353. MattJ So it could easily go the way of CPIM, regulation or not
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  411. Trung https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml ← is the official page and does not have `chat:` right?
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  416. mjk Trung: correct
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  433. Trung > There is no indication of the regulations mandating any specific tech or standard, so currently as long as the giants publish some form of accessible (but proprietary) API, they can comply Speed of implementation is more important that what the ‘official’ is publishing, correct?
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  435. Zash Important for capturing the market, or important in a correctness sense?
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  440. Trung hmmm………………
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  448. Trung https://chat.trung.fun/dang-ky?t=62MUmG9zF21_lIvSPSWr0sgH ← This is the same link as before. The `<a href=""` is still `xmpp:`, but I am now going to display `chat:`. I am now an ‘outlaw’ and I welcome all developers of clients and servers to join force.
  449. Trung https://chat.trung.fun/dang-ky?t=62MUmG9zF21_lIvSPSWr0sgH ← This is the same link as before. The `<a href=""` is still `xmpp:`, but I am now going to display `chat:`. I am now an ‘outlaw’ and I welcome all service providers and developers of clients and servers to join force.
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  452. Trung (Zash, quick and dirty win the race.)
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  559. singpolyma Trung: a protocol scheme should specify the protocol, which `chat:` does not helpfully do
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  578. Zash Email is not a single protocol, plus it predates everything, so we can let it get away with mailto:
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  600. singpolyma Yeah. I think everyone regards mailto: as a mistake, but too established to change
  601. Trung what is `im:` then. there is also `facetime:` by the great big fuit
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  604. Trung I am quite happy if we can go back to `jabber:` too if that's possible. As long as you can read the damn thing to another person, i could not care less what u name it.
  605. goffi Hi. I'm checking XEP-0391 (Jingle Encrypted Transport), and it's not clear to me how Transport Secret (TS) is made and exchanged. XEP-0391 can't be used alone right? Thus currently, we need to use XEP-0396 with it. However it's tight to legacy version of OMEMO, is there any plan to update to TWOMEMO? Thanks. cc vanitasvitae
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  610. vanitasvitae Right. 391 only defines the JET security element and tells you that you need a way to protect the TS using some encryption method. 396 implements this protection using legacy OMEMO
  611. vanitasvitae It should be pretty straight forward to simply replace the legacy key transport element with a TWOMEMO element.
  612. vanitasvitae I'll add updating 396 to my todo list 😀
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  615. vanitasvitae (perhaps JET could be replaced altogether with SCE encrypted jingle messages though?)
  616. vanitasvitae Not sure what implementors of Jingle would prefer
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  619. goffi vanitasvitae: is any known implementation at the moment? In my case SCE is already implemented, so I'm happy if it's used.
  620. goffi is there any known implementation*
  621. vanitasvitae I'm not aware of any.
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  623. vanitasvitae I think conversations opted for something completely different? cc Daniel
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  626. goffi I'll go with current version for now, and make necessary changes when the updated version will be available, thanks vanitasvitae.
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  634. Daniel I thought we used JET. I can't check the code right now but I vaguely remembering sitting in a cafe with larma and implementing it
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  637. vanitasvitae For file transfer or for AV?
  638. vanitasvitae I though AV used some DTLS stuff?
  639. Daniel File transfer
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  641. vanitasvitae Right, I can see some JET related stuff in the JFT implementation of Conversations
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  644. larma I think SCE for Jingle would be great, but I don't think SCE is properly specd for IQs yet
  645. singpolyma SCE doesn't completely solve jingle unless you use IBB right?
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  647. vanitasvitae larma, I agree
  648. vanitasvitae Since I haven't created an implementation for IQs along with the spec, I sort of "blind drafted" 😛
  649. vanitasvitae singpolyma, you could encrypt the whole jingle init stanza with SCE and include a plain security element in there
  650. goffi singpolyma: it's just used to exchange keys, transfert is done out of band as usual (only it's encrypted).
  651. singpolyma goffi: oh yeah, that makes sense
  652. singpolyma For bits of binary it could encrypt the whole thing too, though at the expense of shrinking the max file size that works
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  655. goffi for very small files, yes IBB could work out of the band with SCE
  656. goffi out of the box*
  657. Zash or BOB!
  658. vanitasvitae for the sake of genericism (is that even a word?) you probably don't want to SCE all the IBBs but instead negotiate a transport key and use that to protect the IBB session
  659. singpolyma You can do big files with IBB, just have to wait awhile ;)
  660. vanitasvitae So you can swap out IBB for another transport more easily
  661. Zash Server rate limits has entered the chat.
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  663. goffi vanitasvitae: right, but you then end up with 2 layers of e2ee with IBB (SCE + JET).
  664. vanitasvitae why?
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  667. Zash (+TLS!!!1)
  668. vanitasvitae You only SCE(Jingle Init + plain TS) and then JET(IBB)
  669. goffi vanitasvitae: except if I missed something, you would have to make an exception inside SCE for IBB, sure it's possible but I can imagine how this can go wrong easily.
  670. Kev has joined
  671. goffi anyway, IBB should hopefully be barely needed nowadays.
  672. vanitasvitae Ah now I see what you mean
  673. singpolyma IBB is pretty important, since it's the only thing that always works
  674. vanitasvitae I guess you are right. For IBB it probably makes sense to only use SCE then and use JET for out of band transports
  675. singpolyma It like to implement ice-tcp eventually, maybe some other stuff
  676. singpolyma I'd like to implement ice-tcp eventually, maybe some other stuff
  677. goffi singpolyma: sure it's important to have it just in case, but the less it's used, the better.
  678. singpolyma goffi: I sort of agree, except that if it is used *too* little it doesn't get tested enough and starts to break in clients and then people who do need it their file transfers don't work
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  794. Syndace (test message please ignore)
  795. Zash NEVER
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  798. Syndace flow, you are one of the authors of OX, right?
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  801. Syndace If so, I'd appreciate if you took a look at this email thread: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2022-August/038949.html
  802. Syndace (and everybody else who has experience with OX too)
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  810. moparisthebest Trung: may I suggest "snikket:" for a new url scheme
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  871. Trung hahaha why the hell not hahahahaha let's start a monolopoly
  872. Menel Hehe. Only a brand
  873. Trung how about `xep:`?
  874. Trung it's not on the ‘official’ web page either.
  875. Menel xep: is obviously to link to a xep..
  876. Trung i think people can pronouce `xep:` much better than `xmpp:`
  877. mjk aaaa: would probably most accessible to pronounciation
  878. Trung yeah… i don't know man. the whole reason i register trung.fun was because i don't know which name to take and .fun was cheap so
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  886. Zash `slash-colon-at-dot:`
  887. Trung and then later I realized that ‘fun’ if read in Vietnamese would be ‘phân’ which means ‘shit’ in English
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  889. Trung too freakin late to change now =]]]]]]]]]
  890. mjk yes, naming is hard
  891. moparisthebest How often do you say url schemes out loud
  892. moparisthebest why yes visit my webpage at h t t p s colon forward slash forward slash w w w dot ...
  893. singpolyma Aech tee tee pee semicolon backslash backslash double yew double yew double yew dot
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  896. Trung not that you say it out loud, but we are providing a chat service and it is called ‘xmpp’ which is very difficult to say to another person. There are other chat services that are very easy to pass around which im sure u know already.
  897. moparisthebest Sorry do you say XMPP to other people?
  898. Trung not that you say it out loud all the time, but we are providing a chat service and it is called ‘xmpp’ which is very difficult to say to another person. There are other chat services that are very easy to pass around which im sure u know already.
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  901. moparisthebest Do WhatsApp users say "funxmpp but now with json" to each other? Strange
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  903. moparisthebest When people ask me for my website I don't start with "first you need a TCP stack then..."
  904. moparisthebest My point is you are at the wrong protocol layer here, you don't tell people "contact me on XMPP" you say "install Snikket and send me a message" or whatever, same as every other chat system
  905. singpolyma Trung: it's all about context. If I'm talking about the network in a general way I'll say Jabber of course. More often I'm talking about a particular app. But URIs are technical details, it's about a protocol, and the protocol is named XMPP
  906. singpolyma Usually users don't need to see the URI at all, they can just click a link, etc
  907. singpolyma Unless you're printing on a business card or something maybe?
  908. Trung that's exactly my point. it's confusing with mail system
  909. Trung that's why people will have to see the uri
  910. singpolyma Why? Why would you show them the URI? What is the context?
  911. Trung bussiness card
  912. Trung u just said it
  913. singpolyma Ah, ok. So specifically if they still do business cards where you are then yeah. Though even then I'd probably write "Jabber ID: me@example.com" not a raw URI. Put the URI in a qr code
  914. Trung ok so we go for `Jabber ID:`
  915. singpolyma For labelling a jabber id that seems like the right label :)
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  917. Trung i thought we don't want to use `jabber:`
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  919. singpolyma Trung: not as a URI scheme
  920. Trung but mailto is not smtp
  921. Trung and pop and imap
  922. moparisthebest I don't say jabber either, that's that old Cisco tool that doesn't work well
  923. Trung which level are we on lol
  924. singpolyma Trung: mailto is a mistake that's all
  925. singpolyma It's a bad URI scheme
  926. singpolyma But we can't fix it now
  927. Trung puffff what is `im:`
  928. moparisthebest Has anyone ever seen mailto: on a business card? Not me
  929. Trung i have seen plenty
  930. singpolyma I haven't seen a business card this decade 🤷‍♂️
  931. moparisthebest Just put you@your.domain on there and people will email you or send you an XMPP message, no problem
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  933. Trung we can do `snikket:` if that's what u really up to mate. but mixing up mail and xmpp will cause confusion and it will be hard to spread. that's all i'm saying.
  934. Menel Trung: just recommend one client and tell them. About that. And advanced and later, you can tell them that you can actually use different apps because it's an open standard.. 🤯. One of the biggest problem is people trying all clients at once at the beginning and then saying the feature are buggy and bad.. Because they don't compare the best client with $alternative but always the worst.
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  936. Trung Snikket currently is not getting notification mate 😁 it is already confusing enough
  937. Trung Siskin currently is not getting notification mate 😁 it is already confusing enough
  938. Trung ↑ sorry ↑
  939. Menel For just an address stay with xmpp:... Because you don't change https:, do you?
  940. Menel It's some meaningless technical link.. It's more important what it does once someone presses it
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  943. Trung ok i'll just remove the uri all together and let people be confused
  944. Menel I honestly don't get you. But do what you want, it's your service.
  945. singpolyma Trung: if you want to label it for humans to read, use a human label, that's all. A URI is for computers not mostly for humans
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  947. singpolyma No label is also valid as some have said here, depending on context
  948. Menel Like https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1 There is no xmpp: visible.. But every link will just do that...
  949. singpolyma Yeah. This is why cheogram android also doesn't show just saw xmpp URIs in chats
  950. singpolyma Yeah. This is why cheogram android also doesn't show just raw xmpp URIs in chats
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  952. Trung sorry i cannot be any clearer. it is confusing for people who already have emails to see that because they are used to seeing mailto: or email: attach to user@domain.org. I just want to minimize that. But that's what u guys suggesting then sure i'll remove the uri.
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  954. Menel Trung: did you Visit > https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1 For inspiration? Maybe that would be an approach for you?
  955. singpolyma Trung: email: would be a label for humans, not a URI. Feel free to usefully label with the name of the thing, like Jabber ID
  956. singpolyma Menel: this is for printing on paper
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  958. Menel Ah
  959. Trung the second point is it is difficult to spread the actual xmpp which at the current moment, a it-just-work user will be very confused when they are told they should try another app with the same account. because they might be confused with email apps too and it will cause more trouble.
  960. Trung i'm just pointing out the fact that people who doesn't understand all this uri stuff will be very freakin confused.
  961. moparisthebest When you read a domain name do you often think "huh is that a website or a Java package name?" I don't think that's actually a problem in practice
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  964. moparisthebest People don't and shouldn't understand URI things, those are for clicking, only the computer needs to understand them
  965. Menel One can also print a website that has a button to the chat.. https://conversations.im/j/xsf@muc.xmpp.org
  966. Trung there is only one type of app for website. it's call browser
  967. flow Syndace, could you priortize your points somehow. I have seen the email but my main problem is that I don't have the time to provide a detailed answer for each point. and I somehow don't want to answer arbitrary question
  968. Trung u get any browser u like the domain will return the website
  969. flow Syndace, could you priortize your points somehow? I have seen the email but my main problem is that I don't have the time to provide a detailed answer for each point. and I somehow don't want to answer arbitrary question
  970. Trung but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account. things don't go very well…
  971. Trung but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account, things don't go very well…
  972. singpolyma Trung: there are definitely multiple browsers with different names. Though less than there used to be I understand
  973. Menel There is nothing you can do about that > but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account, things don't go very well…
  974. moparisthebest BRB printing business cards with: > Firefox address: www.moparisthebest.com
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  976. moparisthebest > but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account, things don't go very well… Why not? My email and XMPP address are the same
  977. singpolyma Make your jabber id and email address be the same, that's what I do
  978. Trung well nothing we can do really?
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  980. flow Syndace, could you priortize your points somehow? I have seen the email but my main problem is that I don't have the time to provide a detailed answer for each point. and I somehow don't want to answer arbitrary questions
  981. Menel No
  982. singpolyma Mine also works for SIP and someday AP
  983. Trung what if u just have an xmpp and no email
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  985. singpolyma I'm working on that
  986. singpolyma Soon you'll be able to set an MX and get emails over xmpp if you don't have email otherwise
  987. Menel Jids won't be changed to some scheme not beeing local@server
  988. Trung me too i would like to get rid of emails all together
  989. Trung but we are not there yet
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  992. Menel You'll need a text about : "open that link in this chat app: xmpp:....."
  993. flow Syndace, but if I find time I may try to answer one point at a time. so please don't be surprised that you may not get a full answer immediately. I could also offer that we have a video chat sometimes, as I believe some questions require a more interactive answer
  994. flow would that be an option for you?
  995. Trung Menel, I have that. But opening the app would mean they need to have an app first. So most will register through website then go to the clients page then figure out how they hell they can install it, then it doesn't work then download an app for email, then use whatsapp
  996. Syndace flow: thanks, I'll respond tomorrow
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  998. Syndace Most things aren't super important - I'll just aim for compat with Gajim for noe
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  1000. Trung sorry people i'll stop spamming here coz i think i made it clear enough. thanks everybody.
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  1003. Menel Did you look at the snikket invite page? It seems to do exactly that. Steer the user to the app and automate the sign up
  1004. Trung Menel, I'm doing exactly that too. The confusion problem comes when stuff don't work.
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  1006. Trung if it just works, they never ever have to download a new app to their device and that is it.
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  1013. flow Syndace, kk
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