XSF Discussion - 2022-10-07

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  171. Trung

    Please excuse for my lack of knowledge if this topic has been discuss before. I have a couple of questions that relates to spreading the use of XMPP: 0. Does the user of XMPP has to know about XMPP in order to use it for instant messaging? 1. If Electronic Mail have a URI shorten down to `mailto:`, why does XMPP which is supposed to be the standard for Instant Messaging is shorten down to `xmpp:`? 2. Can we change it? If we can't change it since it has already been implemented in many software, can we add an alias ? 3. If it is possible to add such an alias, can we go for something with less syllables that can be easily and quickly pronouced in every human language? My suggestion is adding an alias for XMPP as `chatto:` or even just `chat:`. But I don't know enough about XMPP and standards and where else it is used so…

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  191. pep.

    0. A user certainly doesn't have to know about the protocol. There's many examples of that in the wild already. Mostly closed silos. 1. I don't know. I guess because there was no other name for it at the time (or rather, they didn't want to reuse 'jabber' which had just been trademark'd?) 2. Can we change it? Maybe? We can certainly have software understand multiple schemes for the same protocol. 3. That'll depend on individual projects to implement it, but there can be a push from the community for it. https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml

  192. mjk

    Trung: ditching `xmpp:` definitely wouldn't fly, but adding things is always possible. that'd probably be IETF's business rather than XSF, though (disclaimer: I'm affiliated with neither). strictly speaking, the `mailto:` URI scheme sticks out like a sore thumb, because it describes an intent, which URI schemes, in general, arent. `chat:` is another matter tho

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  194. pep.

    I personally don't think the scheme matters at all. People use https:// just fine

  195. pep.

    Or don't use it, rather

  196. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Yeah. I dont think many people are seeing mailto: links anyways

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  198. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Just a button most of the time

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  200. mjk

    they're just sufficiently trained :) http(s) is _everywhere_, to the point of people thinking "link == https"

  201. pep.

    Browsers are making lots of effort not to show these also

  202. pep.

    And one can type in a url without the scheme and it'll land. Worst case, google will find it for you..

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  209. Zash

    meanwhile, http: and https:

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  211. Trung

    Sure. http: and http: and even ws: and wss: has no problem because browsers are all following this standard. Meanwhile, mailto:user@domain.org and xmpp:user@domain.org looks very similar but use completely different software and protocol and user experience.

  212. Trung

    Crawler can't get to this link I think: https://chat.trung.fun/dang-ky?t=62MUmG9zF21_lIvSPSWr0sgH

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  216. mdosch

    My wife and my parents don't know what xmpp is and are using it, so users don't need to know what protocol they are using. But I agree that a snappy name for the eco system is missing nowadays. Previously Jabber was used…

  217. Trung

    if in the invite link above, I change `xmpp:user@domain.org` to `im:user@domain.org` or someth along that line, will there be some sort of police force that comes knocking on my door?

  218. Menel

    You can do what you want there

  219. Menel

    But clients won't understand it

  220. mjk

    im: is a different uri scheme tho (the syntax is different, afaik)

  221. mjk

    and yea, most importantly, it's not associated with xmpp clients :)

  222. Trung

    yeh that's why i'm throwing the topic here Menel. 😁

  223. pep.

    If you want to do this by the rules, follow the iana link I sent above

  224. pep.

    Otherwise nothing prevents clients from experimenting

  225. Menel

    If you write a clients, or change them to react on that, then if will work for your contacts that use your specific client.

  226. Menel

    I wouldn't mind if conversations would try to react on that..

  227. mjk

    wait a minute... https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/perm/jabber

  228. Menel

    Would be even nicer if some think like thunderbird or Firefox would react on xmpp:

  229. mjk

    Menel: as long as the scheme is registered in the system, browsers in general try to handle it (at least Firefox)

  230. mjk

    Menel: as long as the scheme is registered in the system, browsers in general try to pass it on (at least Firefox)

  231. Trung

    ok I understand. Thank you everybody. I'll leave <a href="xmpp:user@domain.org">` as it is and will change the content to `im:`.

  232. Menel

    Uh, so I've some file somewehe where I can enter that? Good to know

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  234. Trung

    sorry the link is in Vietnamese, I don't know enough Lua to mess about with the module yet.

  235. jonas’

    Trung, fwiw, that may be confusing though, if people based on your (visual) example try to use im: and it doesn't work

  236. jonas’

    so rather stay with the standard I guess

  237. mjk

    Menel: on freedesktop systems, you just register and app as a handler of, say, x-scheme-handler/xmpp MIME type. on windows, you add `xmpp` somewhere into registry

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  239. mjk

    Menel: on freedesktop systems, you just register an app as a handler of, say, x-scheme-handler/xmpp MIME type. on windows, you add `xmpp` somewhere into registry

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  241. pep.

    The thing with schemes other than https? is that they don't matter anyway as long as web is the norm. It's almost impossible to leave a browser with another scheme. Chrome filters xmpp, and many others

  242. pep.

    (Or rather it allows quite a small set)

  243. Trung

    yeah I know it will cause confusion that's why we might want to discuss it and add it to the book before start implementation. But honestly, xmpp: means gibberish in human language doesn't matter which country you are coming from. People won't spread gibberish if they can't even pronouce the thing properly.

  244. Zash

    Changing the scheme now would just cause problems.

  245. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Also jabber is worse imo

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  247. Zash

    I also don't see what the problem is.

  248. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    I wouldnt mention either

  249. pep.

    I say the scheme doesn't matter. As I said above, "http" is used every day and nobody complains. It's invisible to most and people call that "web" anyway

  250. mjk

    pep.: for me, chromium asks if I wanna open the link with the external app (and says its name), no filtering 🤷️

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  252. Zash

    `<a href="xmpp:alice@example.com">💬️ chat with Alice</a>`

  253. Zash

    Problem solved.

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  255. jonas’

    ^ +1

  256. mjk

    > and says its name that is xdg-open!

  257. Zash

    or https://yax.im/i/#bob@example.com

  258. pep.


  259. Trung

    the problem is user@domain.org means emails to most people.

  260. pep.

    Looks like Chrome does.. but not on android? And other things also don't support it

  261. pep.

    Woah, matrix: even is supported.. :/

  262. Trung

    and most people now relate user@domain.org to user@gmail.com or user@outlook.com

  263. Trung


  264. mjk

    pep.: Navigator.registerProtocolHandler is a different thing from what I was talking about, it allows registering http urls to handle schemes in-browser

  265. Menel

    Hide it as a browser button seems a good choice

  266. pep.

    Yeah it's handy for movim, libervia, etc.

  267. pep.

    But you're right

  268. Menel

    mjk: thanks. Will add it there

  269. Link Mauve

    mjk, please not xdg-open, that shell script doesn’t implement XDG specs, you should instead use a proper tool like `gio open`.

  270. mjk

    Menel: it should probably be there already. :) when you install, e.g., Gajim, Firefox will start asking if you wanna open the xmpp link in Gajim

  271. mjk

    Link Mauve: tell that to Google, I guess

  272. Link Mauve

    I don’t speak much with Google.

  273. mjk

    idfk why does it ask me to open xmpp with xdg-open

  274. mjk

    Link Mauve: me neither, so, local patching it is!.. oh wait, I don't have a computer that can build it, nvm

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  283. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    > pep.: > Woah, matrix: even is supported.. :/ Makes sense matrix paid them to move to madric and they wanted to support it

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  286. mjk

    madric :D

  287. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    XD oups

  288. mjk

    I thought it was intentional

  289. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    No :D

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  297. Trung

    I found `im:` here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_URI_schemes

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  299. Trung

    it also has `xmpp:` in the note section which myself am now confused lol

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  304. mjk

    that note _is_ confusing

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  306. wurstsalat

    > At the time this document was written, numerous instant messaging protocols were in use, and little interoperability between services based on these protocols has been achieved. (2004)

  307. mjk


  308. mjk

    (which doesn't mention xmpp at all)

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  310. MattJ

    See RFC 3923

  311. MattJ

    See RFC 3922

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  313. MattJ

    And history is currently repeating itself, as the IETF is trying to spin up a new IM interoperability initiative

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  315. Zash

    all this has happened before, and all will happen again, and again, and again

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  328. Trung

    ok… for now I'll leave my inivte page as it is then. =]]]]

  329. mjk

    hopefully, this time is a bit different, given the current regulational background

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  334. mjk

    > presentity RFCian is a weird language

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  347. MattJ

    mjk: hopefully, indeed. I'm not holding my breath 🙂

  348. MattJ

    There is no indication of the regulations mandating any specific tech or standard, so currently as long as the giants publish some form of accessible (but proprietary) API, they can comply

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  350. MattJ

    And there is no indication that any of them are interested in whatever the IETF comes up with

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  352. mjk

    yeah. the MIMI authors seem to merely express the hope themselves :D

  353. MattJ

    So it could easily go the way of CPIM, regulation or not

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  411. Trung

    https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml ← is the official page and does not have `chat:` right?

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  416. mjk

    Trung: correct

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  433. Trung

    > There is no indication of the regulations mandating any specific tech or standard, so currently as long as the giants publish some form of accessible (but proprietary) API, they can comply Speed of implementation is more important that what the ‘official’ is publishing, correct?

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  435. Zash

    Important for capturing the market, or important in a correctness sense?

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  440. Trung


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  448. Trung

    https://chat.trung.fun/dang-ky?t=62MUmG9zF21_lIvSPSWr0sgH ← This is the same link as before. The `<a href=""` is still `xmpp:`, but I am now going to display `chat:`. I am now an ‘outlaw’ and I welcome all developers of clients and servers to join force.

  449. Trung

    https://chat.trung.fun/dang-ky?t=62MUmG9zF21_lIvSPSWr0sgH ← This is the same link as before. The `<a href=""` is still `xmpp:`, but I am now going to display `chat:`. I am now an ‘outlaw’ and I welcome all service providers and developers of clients and servers to join force.

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  452. Trung

    (Zash, quick and dirty win the race.)

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  559. singpolyma

    Trung: a protocol scheme should specify the protocol, which `chat:` does not helpfully do

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  578. Zash

    Email is not a single protocol, plus it predates everything, so we can let it get away with mailto:

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  600. singpolyma

    Yeah. I think everyone regards mailto: as a mistake, but too established to change

  601. Trung

    what is `im:` then. there is also `facetime:` by the great big fuit

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  604. Trung

    I am quite happy if we can go back to `jabber:` too if that's possible. As long as you can read the damn thing to another person, i could not care less what u name it.

  605. goffi

    Hi. I'm checking XEP-0391 (Jingle Encrypted Transport), and it's not clear to me how Transport Secret (TS) is made and exchanged. XEP-0391 can't be used alone right? Thus currently, we need to use XEP-0396 with it. However it's tight to legacy version of OMEMO, is there any plan to update to TWOMEMO? Thanks. cc vanitasvitae

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  610. vanitasvitae

    Right. 391 only defines the JET security element and tells you that you need a way to protect the TS using some encryption method. 396 implements this protection using legacy OMEMO

  611. vanitasvitae

    It should be pretty straight forward to simply replace the legacy key transport element with a TWOMEMO element.

  612. vanitasvitae

    I'll add updating 396 to my todo list 😀

  613. kryptos has joined

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  615. vanitasvitae

    (perhaps JET could be replaced altogether with SCE encrypted jingle messages though?)

  616. vanitasvitae

    Not sure what implementors of Jingle would prefer

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  619. goffi

    vanitasvitae: is any known implementation at the moment? In my case SCE is already implemented, so I'm happy if it's used.

  620. goffi

    is there any known implementation*

  621. vanitasvitae

    I'm not aware of any.

  622. inky has left

  623. vanitasvitae

    I think conversations opted for something completely different? cc Daniel

  624. sebastian has left

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  626. goffi

    I'll go with current version for now, and make necessary changes when the updated version will be available, thanks vanitasvitae.

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  634. Daniel

    I thought we used JET. I can't check the code right now but I vaguely remembering sitting in a cafe with larma and implementing it

  635. mh has joined

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  637. vanitasvitae

    For file transfer or for AV?

  638. vanitasvitae

    I though AV used some DTLS stuff?

  639. Daniel

    File transfer

  640. inky has joined

  641. vanitasvitae

    Right, I can see some JET related stuff in the JFT implementation of Conversations

  642. kryptos has joined

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  644. larma

    I think SCE for Jingle would be great, but I don't think SCE is properly specd for IQs yet

  645. singpolyma

    SCE doesn't completely solve jingle unless you use IBB right?

  646. millesimus has joined

  647. vanitasvitae

    larma, I agree

  648. vanitasvitae

    Since I haven't created an implementation for IQs along with the spec, I sort of "blind drafted" 😛

  649. vanitasvitae

    singpolyma, you could encrypt the whole jingle init stanza with SCE and include a plain security element in there

  650. goffi

    singpolyma: it's just used to exchange keys, transfert is done out of band as usual (only it's encrypted).

  651. singpolyma

    goffi: oh yeah, that makes sense

  652. singpolyma

    For bits of binary it could encrypt the whole thing too, though at the expense of shrinking the max file size that works

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  655. goffi

    for very small files, yes IBB could work out of the band with SCE

  656. goffi

    out of the box*

  657. Zash

    or BOB!

  658. vanitasvitae

    for the sake of genericism (is that even a word?) you probably don't want to SCE all the IBBs but instead negotiate a transport key and use that to protect the IBB session

  659. singpolyma

    You can do big files with IBB, just have to wait awhile ;)

  660. vanitasvitae

    So you can swap out IBB for another transport more easily

  661. Zash

    Server rate limits has entered the chat.

  662. inky has left

  663. goffi

    vanitasvitae: right, but you then end up with 2 layers of e2ee with IBB (SCE + JET).

  664. vanitasvitae


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  667. Zash


  668. vanitasvitae

    You only SCE(Jingle Init + plain TS) and then JET(IBB)

  669. goffi

    vanitasvitae: except if I missed something, you would have to make an exception inside SCE for IBB, sure it's possible but I can imagine how this can go wrong easily.

  670. Kev has joined

  671. goffi

    anyway, IBB should hopefully be barely needed nowadays.

  672. vanitasvitae

    Ah now I see what you mean

  673. singpolyma

    IBB is pretty important, since it's the only thing that always works

  674. vanitasvitae

    I guess you are right. For IBB it probably makes sense to only use SCE then and use JET for out of band transports

  675. singpolyma

    It like to implement ice-tcp eventually, maybe some other stuff

  676. singpolyma

    I'd like to implement ice-tcp eventually, maybe some other stuff

  677. goffi

    singpolyma: sure it's important to have it just in case, but the less it's used, the better.

  678. singpolyma

    goffi: I sort of agree, except that if it is used *too* little it doesn't get tested enough and starts to break in clients and then people who do need it their file transfers don't work

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  794. Syndace

    (test message please ignore)

  795. Zash


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  798. Syndace

    flow, you are one of the authors of OX, right?

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  801. Syndace

    If so, I'd appreciate if you took a look at this email thread: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2022-August/038949.html

  802. Syndace

    (and everybody else who has experience with OX too)

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  810. moparisthebest

    Trung: may I suggest "snikket:" for a new url scheme

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  871. Trung

    hahaha why the hell not hahahahaha let's start a monolopoly

  872. Menel

    Hehe. Only a brand

  873. Trung

    how about `xep:`?

  874. Trung

    it's not on the ‘official’ web page either.

  875. Menel

    xep: is obviously to link to a xep..

  876. Trung

    i think people can pronouce `xep:` much better than `xmpp:`

  877. mjk

    aaaa: would probably most accessible to pronounciation

  878. Trung

    yeah… i don't know man. the whole reason i register trung.fun was because i don't know which name to take and .fun was cheap so

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  886. Zash


  887. Trung

    and then later I realized that ‘fun’ if read in Vietnamese would be ‘phân’ which means ‘shit’ in English

  888. Steve Kille has left

  889. Trung

    too freakin late to change now =]]]]]]]]]

  890. mjk

    yes, naming is hard

  891. moparisthebest

    How often do you say url schemes out loud

  892. moparisthebest

    why yes visit my webpage at h t t p s colon forward slash forward slash w w w dot ...

  893. singpolyma

    Aech tee tee pee semicolon backslash backslash double yew double yew double yew dot

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  896. Trung

    not that you say it out loud, but we are providing a chat service and it is called ‘xmpp’ which is very difficult to say to another person. There are other chat services that are very easy to pass around which im sure u know already.

  897. moparisthebest

    Sorry do you say XMPP to other people?

  898. Trung

    not that you say it out loud all the time, but we are providing a chat service and it is called ‘xmpp’ which is very difficult to say to another person. There are other chat services that are very easy to pass around which im sure u know already.

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  901. moparisthebest

    Do WhatsApp users say "funxmpp but now with json" to each other? Strange

  902. xnamed has left

  903. moparisthebest

    When people ask me for my website I don't start with "first you need a TCP stack then..."

  904. moparisthebest

    My point is you are at the wrong protocol layer here, you don't tell people "contact me on XMPP" you say "install Snikket and send me a message" or whatever, same as every other chat system

  905. singpolyma

    Trung: it's all about context. If I'm talking about the network in a general way I'll say Jabber of course. More often I'm talking about a particular app. But URIs are technical details, it's about a protocol, and the protocol is named XMPP

  906. singpolyma

    Usually users don't need to see the URI at all, they can just click a link, etc

  907. singpolyma

    Unless you're printing on a business card or something maybe?

  908. Trung

    that's exactly my point. it's confusing with mail system

  909. Trung

    that's why people will have to see the uri

  910. singpolyma

    Why? Why would you show them the URI? What is the context?

  911. Trung

    bussiness card

  912. Trung

    u just said it

  913. singpolyma

    Ah, ok. So specifically if they still do business cards where you are then yeah. Though even then I'd probably write "Jabber ID: me@example.com" not a raw URI. Put the URI in a qr code

  914. Trung

    ok so we go for `Jabber ID:`

  915. singpolyma

    For labelling a jabber id that seems like the right label :)

  916. mh has left

  917. Trung

    i thought we don't want to use `jabber:`

  918. mh has joined

  919. singpolyma

    Trung: not as a URI scheme

  920. Trung

    but mailto is not smtp

  921. Trung

    and pop and imap

  922. moparisthebest

    I don't say jabber either, that's that old Cisco tool that doesn't work well

  923. Trung

    which level are we on lol

  924. singpolyma

    Trung: mailto is a mistake that's all

  925. singpolyma

    It's a bad URI scheme

  926. singpolyma

    But we can't fix it now

  927. Trung

    puffff what is `im:`

  928. moparisthebest

    Has anyone ever seen mailto: on a business card? Not me

  929. Trung

    i have seen plenty

  930. singpolyma

    I haven't seen a business card this decade 🤷‍♂️

  931. moparisthebest

    Just put you@your.domain on there and people will email you or send you an XMPP message, no problem

  932. xnamed has joined

  933. Trung

    we can do `snikket:` if that's what u really up to mate. but mixing up mail and xmpp will cause confusion and it will be hard to spread. that's all i'm saying.

  934. Menel

    Trung: just recommend one client and tell them. About that. And advanced and later, you can tell them that you can actually use different apps because it's an open standard.. 🤯. One of the biggest problem is people trying all clients at once at the beginning and then saying the feature are buggy and bad.. Because they don't compare the best client with $alternative but always the worst.

  935. catchy has left

  936. Trung

    Snikket currently is not getting notification mate 😁 it is already confusing enough

  937. Trung

    Siskin currently is not getting notification mate 😁 it is already confusing enough

  938. Trung

    ↑ sorry ↑

  939. Menel

    For just an address stay with xmpp:... Because you don't change https:, do you?

  940. Menel

    It's some meaningless technical link.. It's more important what it does once someone presses it

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  943. Trung

    ok i'll just remove the uri all together and let people be confused

  944. Menel

    I honestly don't get you. But do what you want, it's your service.

  945. singpolyma

    Trung: if you want to label it for humans to read, use a human label, that's all. A URI is for computers not mostly for humans

  946. bean has joined

  947. singpolyma

    No label is also valid as some have said here, depending on context

  948. Menel

    Like https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1 There is no xmpp: visible.. But every link will just do that...

  949. singpolyma

    Yeah. This is why cheogram android also doesn't show just saw xmpp URIs in chats

  950. singpolyma

    Yeah. This is why cheogram android also doesn't show just raw xmpp URIs in chats

  951. belove has joined

  952. Trung

    sorry i cannot be any clearer. it is confusing for people who already have emails to see that because they are used to seeing mailto: or email: attach to user@domain.org. I just want to minimize that. But that's what u guys suggesting then sure i'll remove the uri.

  953. Kev has left

  954. Menel

    Trung: did you Visit > https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1 For inspiration? Maybe that would be an approach for you?

  955. singpolyma

    Trung: email: would be a label for humans, not a URI. Feel free to usefully label with the name of the thing, like Jabber ID

  956. singpolyma

    Menel: this is for printing on paper

  957. belove has left

  958. Menel


  959. Trung

    the second point is it is difficult to spread the actual xmpp which at the current moment, a it-just-work user will be very confused when they are told they should try another app with the same account. because they might be confused with email apps too and it will cause more trouble.

  960. Trung

    i'm just pointing out the fact that people who doesn't understand all this uri stuff will be very freakin confused.

  961. moparisthebest

    When you read a domain name do you often think "huh is that a website or a Java package name?" I don't think that's actually a problem in practice

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  964. moparisthebest

    People don't and shouldn't understand URI things, those are for clicking, only the computer needs to understand them

  965. Menel

    One can also print a website that has a button to the chat.. https://conversations.im/j/xsf@muc.xmpp.org

  966. Trung

    there is only one type of app for website. it's call browser

  967. flow

    Syndace, could you priortize your points somehow. I have seen the email but my main problem is that I don't have the time to provide a detailed answer for each point. and I somehow don't want to answer arbitrary question

  968. Trung

    u get any browser u like the domain will return the website

  969. flow

    Syndace, could you priortize your points somehow? I have seen the email but my main problem is that I don't have the time to provide a detailed answer for each point. and I somehow don't want to answer arbitrary question

  970. Trung

    but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account. things don't go very well…

  971. Trung

    but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account, things don't go very well…

  972. singpolyma

    Trung: there are definitely multiple browsers with different names. Though less than there used to be I understand

  973. Menel

    There is nothing you can do about that > but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account, things don't go very well…

  974. moparisthebest

    BRB printing business cards with: > Firefox address: www.moparisthebest.com

  975. wladmis has left

  976. moparisthebest

    > but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account, things don't go very well… Why not? My email and XMPP address are the same

  977. singpolyma

    Make your jabber id and email address be the same, that's what I do

  978. Trung

    well nothing we can do really?

  979. wladmis has joined

  980. flow

    Syndace, could you priortize your points somehow? I have seen the email but my main problem is that I don't have the time to provide a detailed answer for each point. and I somehow don't want to answer arbitrary questions

  981. Menel


  982. singpolyma

    Mine also works for SIP and someday AP

  983. Trung

    what if u just have an xmpp and no email

  984. belove has joined

  985. singpolyma

    I'm working on that

  986. singpolyma

    Soon you'll be able to set an MX and get emails over xmpp if you don't have email otherwise

  987. Menel

    Jids won't be changed to some scheme not beeing local@server

  988. Trung

    me too i would like to get rid of emails all together

  989. Trung

    but we are not there yet

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  992. Menel

    You'll need a text about : "open that link in this chat app: xmpp:....."

  993. flow

    Syndace, but if I find time I may try to answer one point at a time. so please don't be surprised that you may not get a full answer immediately. I could also offer that we have a video chat sometimes, as I believe some questions require a more interactive answer

  994. flow

    would that be an option for you?

  995. Trung

    Menel, I have that. But opening the app would mean they need to have an app first. So most will register through website then go to the clients page then figure out how they hell they can install it, then it doesn't work then download an app for email, then use whatsapp

  996. Syndace

    flow: thanks, I'll respond tomorrow

  997. atomicwatch has left

  998. Syndace

    Most things aren't super important - I'll just aim for compat with Gajim for noe

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  1000. Trung

    sorry people i'll stop spamming here coz i think i made it clear enough. thanks everybody.

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  1003. Menel

    Did you look at the snikket invite page? It seems to do exactly that. Steer the user to the app and automate the sign up

  1004. Trung

    Menel, I'm doing exactly that too. The confusion problem comes when stuff don't work.

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  1006. Trung

    if it just works, they never ever have to download a new app to their device and that is it.

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  1013. flow

    Syndace, kk

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