XSF Discussion - 2022-10-07

  1. singpolyma has left
  2. belove has left
  3. belove has joined
  4. singpolyma has joined
  5. belove has left
  6. belove has joined
  7. Patiga has left
  8. karoshi has left
  9. antranigv has joined
  10. antranigv has left
  11. sbach has left
  12. sbach has joined
  13. Patiga has joined
  14. belove has left
  15. belove has joined
  16. kinetik has left
  17. belove has left
  18. belove has joined
  19. belove has left
  20. Steve Kille has left
  21. Steve Kille has joined
  22. belove has joined
  23. petrescatraian has joined
  24. neshtaxmpp has left
  25. *IM* has left
  26. gooya has left
  27. *IM* has joined
  28. antranigv has joined
  29. neshtaxmpp has joined
  30. belove has left
  31. neshtaxmpp has left
  32. belove has joined
  33. belove has left
  34. belove has joined
  35. kryptos has left
  36. neshtaxmpp has joined
  37. neshtaxmpp has left
  38. Friendly Resident Cynic has left
  39. Friendly Resident Cynic has joined
  40. pablo has joined
  41. belove has left
  42. belove has joined
  43. belove has left
  44. neshtaxmpp has joined
  45. neshtaxmpp has left
  46. belove has joined
  47. Tobias has left
  48. Tobias has joined
  49. sbach has left
  50. sbach has joined
  51. pablo has left
  52. belove has left
  53. adiaholic has left
  54. belove has joined
  55. adiaholic has joined
  56. BASSGOD has joined
  57. belove has left
  58. belove has joined
  59. neshtaxmpp has joined
  60. neshtaxmpp has left
  61. Yagiza has joined
  62. konstantinos has left
  63. belove has left
  64. belove has joined
  65. belove has left
  66. *IM* has left
  67. Seve has joined
  68. belove has joined
  69. neshtaxmpp has joined
  70. LNJ has joined
  71. Maxence has joined
  72. petrescatraian has left
  73. konstantinos has joined
  74. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has left
  75. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has joined
  76. petrescatraian has joined
  77. atomicwatch has left
  78. atomicwatch has joined
  79. mimi89999 has left
  80. mimi89999 has joined
  81. massivebox has left
  82. massivebox has joined
  83. eevvoor has joined
  84. me9 has joined
  85. mirux has joined
  86. Menel has left
  87. Menel has joined
  88. Menel has left
  89. Menel has joined
  90. antranigv has left
  91. Menel has left
  92. Menel has joined
  93. Menel has left
  94. Menel has joined
  95. belove has left
  96. belove has joined
  97. arc has left
  98. arc has joined
  99. massivebox has left
  100. massivebox has joined
  101. Zash has joined
  102. antranigv has joined
  103. me9 has left
  104. floretta has left
  105. floretta has joined
  106. belove has left
  107. Vidak has left
  108. arc has left
  109. arc has joined
  110. belove has joined
  111. *IM* has joined
  112. belove has left
  113. belove has joined
  114. Menel has left
  115. Menel has joined
  116. jcbrand has joined
  117. Menel has left
  118. Menel has joined
  119. karoshi has joined
  120. *IM* has left
  121. *IM* has joined
  122. nicomuc has joined
  123. arc has left
  124. arc has joined
  125. atomicwatch has left
  126. mathijs has left
  127. mathijs has joined
  128. mathijs has left
  129. mathijs has joined
  130. lskdjf has joined
  131. Alex has joined
  132. p42ity has joined
  133. Tobias has left
  134. Tobias has joined
  135. p42ity has left
  136. goffi has left
  137. goffi has joined
  138. karoshi has left
  139. neox has joined
  140. *IM* has left
  141. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has left
  142. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has joined
  143. emus has joined
  144. eevvoor has left
  145. Mario Sabatino has joined
  146. Matthew has left
  147. uhoreg has left
  148. homebeach has left
  149. Half-Shot has left
  150. Half-Shot has joined
  151. Matthew has joined
  152. homebeach has joined
  153. uhoreg has joined
  154. Tobias has left
  155. Tobias has joined
  156. eevvoor has joined
  157. asterix has joined
  158. nicomuc has left
  159. Tobias has left
  160. Tobias has joined
  161. nicomuc has joined
  162. Steve Kille has left
  163. jcbrand has left
  164. jcbrand has joined
  165. arc has left
  166. arc has joined
  167. Mario Sabatino has left
  168. Mario Sabatino has joined
  169. atomicwatch has joined
  170. jgart has left
  171. Trung Please excuse for my lack of knowledge if this topic has been discuss before. I have a couple of questions that relates to spreading the use of XMPP: 0. Does the user of XMPP has to know about XMPP in order to use it for instant messaging? 1. If Electronic Mail have a URI shorten down to `mailto:`, why does XMPP which is supposed to be the standard for Instant Messaging is shorten down to `xmpp:`? 2. Can we change it? If we can't change it since it has already been implemented in many software, can we add an alias ? 3. If it is possible to add such an alias, can we go for something with less syllables that can be easily and quickly pronouced in every human language? My suggestion is adding an alias for XMPP as `chatto:` or even just `chat:`. But I don't know enough about XMPP and standards and where else it is used so…
  172. mh has left
  173. mh has joined
  174. goffi has left
  175. goffi has joined
  176. Matthew has left
  177. uhoreg has left
  178. homebeach has left
  179. Half-Shot has left
  180. Half-Shot has joined
  181. Matthew has joined
  182. homebeach has joined
  183. uhoreg has joined
  184. Trung has left
  185. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has left
  186. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has joined
  187. Trung has joined
  188. Vidak has joined
  189. Tim R has joined
  190. mh has left
  191. pep. 0. A user certainly doesn't have to know about the protocol. There's many examples of that in the wild already. Mostly closed silos. 1. I don't know. I guess because there was no other name for it at the time (or rather, they didn't want to reuse 'jabber' which had just been trademark'd?) 2. Can we change it? Maybe? We can certainly have software understand multiple schemes for the same protocol. 3. That'll depend on individual projects to implement it, but there can be a push from the community for it. https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml
  192. mjk Trung: ditching `xmpp:` definitely wouldn't fly, but adding things is always possible. that'd probably be IETF's business rather than XSF, though (disclaimer: I'm affiliated with neither). strictly speaking, the `mailto:` URI scheme sticks out like a sore thumb, because it describes an intent, which URI schemes, in general, arent. `chat:` is another matter tho
  193. Steve Kille has joined
  194. pep. I personally don't think the scheme matters at all. People use https:// just fine
  195. pep. Or don't use it, rather
  196. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Yeah. I dont think many people are seeing mailto: links anyways
  197. mh has joined
  198. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Just a button most of the time
  199. antranigv has left
  200. mjk they're just sufficiently trained :) http(s) is _everywhere_, to the point of people thinking "link == https"
  201. pep. Browsers are making lots of effort not to show these also
  202. pep. And one can type in a url without the scheme and it'll land. Worst case, google will find it for you..
  203. Andrzej has joined
  204. antranigv has joined
  205. antranigv has left
  206. antranigv has joined
  207. mathijs has left
  208. mathijs has joined
  209. Zash meanwhile, http: and https:
  210. karoshi has joined
  211. Trung Sure. http: and http: and even ws: and wss: has no problem because browsers are all following this standard. Meanwhile, mailto:user@domain.org and xmpp:user@domain.org looks very similar but use completely different software and protocol and user experience.
  212. Trung Crawler can't get to this link I think: https://chat.trung.fun/dang-ky?t=62MUmG9zF21_lIvSPSWr0sgH
  213. Mario Sabatino has left
  214. Mario Sabatino has joined
  215. Steve Kille has left
  216. mdosch My wife and my parents don't know what xmpp is and are using it, so users don't need to know what protocol they are using. But I agree that a snappy name for the eco system is missing nowadays. Previously Jabber was used…
  217. Trung if in the invite link above, I change `xmpp:user@domain.org` to `im:user@domain.org` or someth along that line, will there be some sort of police force that comes knocking on my door?
  218. Menel You can do what you want there
  219. Menel But clients won't understand it
  220. mjk im: is a different uri scheme tho (the syntax is different, afaik)
  221. mjk and yea, most importantly, it's not associated with xmpp clients :)
  222. Trung yeh that's why i'm throwing the topic here Menel. 😁
  223. pep. If you want to do this by the rules, follow the iana link I sent above
  224. pep. Otherwise nothing prevents clients from experimenting
  225. Menel If you write a clients, or change them to react on that, then if will work for your contacts that use your specific client.
  226. Menel I wouldn't mind if conversations would try to react on that..
  227. mjk wait a minute... https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/perm/jabber
  228. Menel Would be even nicer if some think like thunderbird or Firefox would react on xmpp:
  229. mjk Menel: as long as the scheme is registered in the system, browsers in general try to handle it (at least Firefox)
  230. mjk Menel: as long as the scheme is registered in the system, browsers in general try to pass it on (at least Firefox)
  231. Trung ok I understand. Thank you everybody. I'll leave <a href="xmpp:user@domain.org">` as it is and will change the content to `im:`.
  232. Menel Uh, so I've some file somewehe where I can enter that? Good to know
  233. *IM* has joined
  234. Trung sorry the link is in Vietnamese, I don't know enough Lua to mess about with the module yet.
  235. jonas’ Trung, fwiw, that may be confusing though, if people based on your (visual) example try to use im: and it doesn't work
  236. jonas’ so rather stay with the standard I guess
  237. mjk Menel: on freedesktop systems, you just register and app as a handler of, say, x-scheme-handler/xmpp MIME type. on windows, you add `xmpp` somewhere into registry
  238. mh has left
  239. mjk Menel: on freedesktop systems, you just register an app as a handler of, say, x-scheme-handler/xmpp MIME type. on windows, you add `xmpp` somewhere into registry
  240. mh has joined
  241. pep. The thing with schemes other than https? is that they don't matter anyway as long as web is the norm. It's almost impossible to leave a browser with another scheme. Chrome filters xmpp, and many others
  242. pep. (Or rather it allows quite a small set)
  243. Trung yeah I know it will cause confusion that's why we might want to discuss it and add it to the book before start implementation. But honestly, xmpp: means gibberish in human language doesn't matter which country you are coming from. People won't spread gibberish if they can't even pronouce the thing properly.
  244. Zash Changing the scheme now would just cause problems.
  245. MSavoritias (fae,ve) Also jabber is worse imo
  246. gooya has joined
  247. Zash I also don't see what the problem is.
  248. MSavoritias (fae,ve) I wouldnt mention either
  249. pep. I say the scheme doesn't matter. As I said above, "http" is used every day and nobody complains. It's invisible to most and people call that "web" anyway
  250. mjk pep.: for me, chromium asks if I wanna open the link with the external app (and says its name), no filtering 🤷️
  251. krauq has left
  252. Zash `<a href="xmpp:alice@example.com">💬️ chat with Alice</a>`
  253. Zash Problem solved.
  254. krauq has joined
  255. jonas’ ^ +1
  256. mjk > and says its name that is xdg-open!
  257. Zash or https://yax.im/i/#bob@example.com
  258. pep. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/registerProtocolHandler#browser_compatibility
  259. Trung the problem is user@domain.org means emails to most people.
  260. pep. Looks like Chrome does.. but not on android? And other things also don't support it
  261. pep. Woah, matrix: even is supported.. :/
  262. Trung and most people now relate user@domain.org to user@gmail.com or user@outlook.com
  263. Trung s/relate/have/
  264. mjk pep.: Navigator.registerProtocolHandler is a different thing from what I was talking about, it allows registering http urls to handle schemes in-browser
  265. Menel Hide it as a browser button seems a good choice
  266. pep. Yeah it's handy for movim, libervia, etc.
  267. pep. But you're right
  268. Menel mjk: thanks. Will add it there
  269. Link Mauve mjk, please not xdg-open, that shell script doesn’t implement XDG specs, you should instead use a proper tool like `gio open`.
  270. mjk Menel: it should probably be there already. :) when you install, e.g., Gajim, Firefox will start asking if you wanna open the xmpp link in Gajim
  271. mjk Link Mauve: tell that to Google, I guess
  272. Link Mauve I don’t speak much with Google.
  273. mjk idfk why does it ask me to open xmpp with xdg-open
  274. mjk Link Mauve: me neither, so, local patching it is!.. oh wait, I don't have a computer that can build it, nvm
  275. Kev has joined
  276. Kev has left
  277. Kev has joined
  278. goffi has left
  279. goffi has joined
  280. SteveF has joined
  281. goffi has left
  282. goffi has joined
  283. MSavoritias (fae,ve) > pep.: > Woah, matrix: even is supported.. :/ Makes sense matrix paid them to move to madric and they wanted to support it
  284. *IM* has left
  285. inky has left
  286. mjk madric :D
  287. MSavoritias (fae,ve) XD oups
  288. mjk I thought it was intentional
  289. MSavoritias (fae,ve) No :D
  290. Daniel has left
  291. xnamed has left
  292. massivebox has left
  293. massivebox has joined
  294. inky has joined
  295. pasdesushi has joined
  296. karoshi has left
  297. Trung I found `im:` here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_URI_schemes
  298. mh has left
  299. Trung it also has `xmpp:` in the note section which myself am now confused lol
  300. massivebox has left
  301. massivebox has joined
  302. mh has joined
  303. eevvoor has left
  304. mjk that note _is_ confusing
  305. kurisu has left
  306. wurstsalat > At the time this document was written, numerous instant messaging protocols were in use, and little interoperability between services based on these protocols has been achieved. (2004)
  307. mjk (<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3860.html>)
  308. mjk (which doesn't mention xmpp at all)
  309. Projjal has joined
  310. MattJ See RFC 3923
  311. MattJ See RFC 3922
  312. chipmnk has joined
  313. MattJ And history is currently repeating itself, as the IETF is trying to spin up a new IM interoperability initiative
  314. Daniel has joined
  315. Zash all this has happened before, and all will happen again, and again, and again
  316. p42ity has joined
  317. Kev has left
  318. floretta has left
  319. floretta has joined
  320. Kev has joined
  321. p42ity has left
  322. Kev has left
  323. Kev has joined
  324. karoshi has joined
  325. belove has left
  326. catchy has left
  327. catchy has joined
  328. Trung ok… for now I'll leave my inivte page as it is then. =]]]]
  329. mjk hopefully, this time is a bit different, given the current regulational background
  330. belove has joined
  331. Daniel has left
  332. sonny has left
  333. sonny has joined
  334. mjk > presentity RFCian is a weird language
  335. belove has left
  336. LNJ has left
  337. mjk has left
  338. Matthew has left
  339. uhoreg has left
  340. homebeach has left
  341. Half-Shot has left
  342. mjk has joined
  343. Half-Shot has joined
  344. Matthew has joined
  345. homebeach has joined
  346. uhoreg has joined
  347. MattJ mjk: hopefully, indeed. I'm not holding my breath 🙂
  348. MattJ There is no indication of the regulations mandating any specific tech or standard, so currently as long as the giants publish some form of accessible (but proprietary) API, they can comply
  349. qy has left
  350. MattJ And there is no indication that any of them are interested in whatever the IETF comes up with
  351. Alex has left
  352. mjk yeah. the MIMI authors seem to merely express the hope themselves :D
  353. MattJ So it could easily go the way of CPIM, regulation or not
  354. Alex has joined
  355. belove has joined
  356. Daniel has joined
  357. mh has left
  358. floretta has left
  359. belove has left
  360. mh has joined
  361. kurisu has joined
  362. inky has left
  363. belove has joined
  364. karoshi has left
  365. karoshi has joined
  366. Kev has left
  367. Kev has joined
  368. Kev has left
  369. belove has left
  370. eevvoor has joined
  371. inky has joined
  372. Zash has left
  373. LNJ has joined
  374. Zash has joined
  375. wladmis has left
  376. wladmis has joined
  377. wladmis has left
  378. xnamed has joined
  379. wladmis has joined
  380. wladmis has left
  381. wladmis has joined
  382. Kev has joined
  383. Kev has left
  384. Kev has joined
  385. Kev has left
  386. Kev has joined
  387. belove has joined
  388. qy has joined
  389. Matthew has left
  390. uhoreg has left
  391. homebeach has left
  392. Half-Shot has left
  393. Half-Shot has joined
  394. Matthew has joined
  395. homebeach has joined
  396. uhoreg has joined
  397. sbach has left
  398. sbach has joined
  399. sbach has left
  400. sbach has joined
  401. inky has left
  402. sbach has left
  403. sbach has joined
  404. SteveF has left
  405. karoshi has left
  406. LNJ has left
  407. Kev has left
  408. belove has left
  409. Andrzej has left
  410. antranigv has left
  411. Trung https://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes/uri-schemes.xhtml ← is the official page and does not have `chat:` right?
  412. antranigv has joined
  413. Alex has left
  414. Alex has joined
  415. belove has joined
  416. mjk Trung: correct
  417. antranigv has left
  418. konstantinos has left
  419. konstantinos has joined
  420. LNJ has joined
  421. floretta has joined
  422. belove has left
  423. wladmis has left
  424. wladmis has joined
  425. wladmis has left
  426. wladmis has joined
  427. SteveF has joined
  428. SteveF has left
  429. wladmis has left
  430. wladmis has joined
  431. wladmis has left
  432. wladmis has joined
  433. Trung > There is no indication of the regulations mandating any specific tech or standard, so currently as long as the giants publish some form of accessible (but proprietary) API, they can comply Speed of implementation is more important that what the ‘official’ is publishing, correct?
  434. belove has joined
  435. Zash Important for capturing the market, or important in a correctness sense?
  436. mathijs has left
  437. mathijs has joined
  438. karoshi has joined
  439. belove has left
  440. Trung hmmm………………
  441. Menel has left
  442. Menel has joined
  443. neox has left
  444. Menel has left
  445. Menel has joined
  446. papatutuwawa has joined
  447. belove has joined
  448. Trung https://chat.trung.fun/dang-ky?t=62MUmG9zF21_lIvSPSWr0sgH ← This is the same link as before. The `<a href=""` is still `xmpp:`, but I am now going to display `chat:`. I am now an ‘outlaw’ and I welcome all developers of clients and servers to join force.
  449. Trung https://chat.trung.fun/dang-ky?t=62MUmG9zF21_lIvSPSWr0sgH ← This is the same link as before. The `<a href=""` is still `xmpp:`, but I am now going to display `chat:`. I am now an ‘outlaw’ and I welcome all service providers and developers of clients and servers to join force.
  450. inky has joined
  451. inky has left
  452. Trung (Zash, quick and dirty win the race.)
  453. inky has joined
  454. Andrzej has joined
  455. neox has joined
  456. konstantinos has left
  457. konstantinos has joined
  458. konstantinos has left
  459. konstantinos has joined
  460. Vaulor has left
  461. Menel has left
  462. Menel has joined
  463. belove has left
  464. Menel has left
  465. Menel has joined
  466. Menel has left
  467. Menel has joined
  468. Menel has left
  469. Menel has joined
  470. belove has joined
  471. belove has left
  472. qy has left
  473. qy has joined
  474. Matthew has left
  475. uhoreg has left
  476. homebeach has left
  477. Half-Shot has left
  478. Half-Shot has joined
  479. Matthew has joined
  480. homebeach has joined
  481. uhoreg has joined
  482. belove has joined
  483. belove has left
  484. massivebox has left
  485. massivebox has joined
  486. Vaulor has joined
  487. atomicwatch has left
  488. inky has left
  489. mdosch has left
  490. belove has joined
  491. mdosch has joined
  492. inky has joined
  493. massivebox has left
  494. massivebox has joined
  495. belove has left
  496. petrescatraian has left
  497. petrescatraian has joined
  498. Projjal has left
  499. Projjal has joined
  500. belove has joined
  501. inky has left
  502. inky has joined
  503. root has left
  504. root has joined
  505. SteveF has joined
  506. resoli has joined
  507. massivebox has left
  508. massivebox has joined
  509. massivebox has left
  510. massivebox has joined
  511. qy has left
  512. p42ity has joined
  513. p42ity has left
  514. qy has joined
  515. Matthew has left
  516. uhoreg has left
  517. homebeach has left
  518. Half-Shot has left
  519. Half-Shot has joined
  520. Matthew has joined
  521. homebeach has joined
  522. uhoreg has joined
  523. arc has left
  524. arc has joined
  525. resoli has left
  526. atomicwatch has joined
  527. pablo has joined
  528. neox has left
  529. karoshi has left
  530. karoshi has joined
  531. pablo has left
  532. stp has joined
  533. resoli has joined
  534. wladmis has left
  535. wladmis has joined
  536. Ingolf has left
  537. stp has left
  538. mathijs has left
  539. mathijs has joined
  540. wladmis has left
  541. wladmis has joined
  542. stp has joined
  543. Seve has left
  544. Ray22 has joined
  545. Andrzej has left
  546. belove has left
  547. djorz has joined
  548. belove has joined
  549. belove has left
  550. belove has joined
  551. belove has left
  552. Andrzej has joined
  553. belove has joined
  554. belove has left
  555. wladmis has left
  556. wladmis has joined
  557. Seve has joined
  558. belove has joined
  559. singpolyma Trung: a protocol scheme should specify the protocol, which `chat:` does not helpfully do
  560. neshtaxmpp has left
  561. mh has left
  562. neshtaxmpp has joined
  563. Zash has left
  564. jcbrand has left
  565. belove has left
  566. Zash has joined
  567. jcbrand has joined
  568. resoli has left
  569. Trung has left
  570. Trung has joined
  571. millesimus has left
  572. mh has joined
  573. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has left
  574. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has joined
  575. Tim R has left
  576. belove has joined
  577. Tim R has joined
  578. Zash Email is not a single protocol, plus it predates everything, so we can let it get away with mailto:
  579. Matthew has left
  580. uhoreg has left
  581. Half-Shot has left
  582. homebeach has left
  583. Half-Shot has joined
  584. Matthew has joined
  585. homebeach has joined
  586. uhoreg has joined
  587. kryptos has joined
  588. kryptos has left
  589. Trung has left
  590. mh has left
  591. kryptos has joined
  592. kryptos has left
  593. mh has joined
  594. stp has left
  595. Trung has joined
  596. Trung has left
  597. Trung has joined
  598. coleman has left
  599. coleman has joined
  600. singpolyma Yeah. I think everyone regards mailto: as a mistake, but too established to change
  601. Trung what is `im:` then. there is also `facetime:` by the great big fuit
  602. kryptos has joined
  603. kryptos has left
  604. Trung I am quite happy if we can go back to `jabber:` too if that's possible. As long as you can read the damn thing to another person, i could not care less what u name it.
  605. goffi Hi. I'm checking XEP-0391 (Jingle Encrypted Transport), and it's not clear to me how Transport Secret (TS) is made and exchanged. XEP-0391 can't be used alone right? Thus currently, we need to use XEP-0396 with it. However it's tight to legacy version of OMEMO, is there any plan to update to TWOMEMO? Thanks. cc vanitasvitae
  606. singpolyma has left
  607. kryptos has joined
  608. kryptos has left
  609. SteveF has left
  610. vanitasvitae Right. 391 only defines the JET security element and tells you that you need a way to protect the TS using some encryption method. 396 implements this protection using legacy OMEMO
  611. vanitasvitae It should be pretty straight forward to simply replace the legacy key transport element with a TWOMEMO element.
  612. vanitasvitae I'll add updating 396 to my todo list 😀
  613. kryptos has joined
  614. kryptos has left
  615. vanitasvitae (perhaps JET could be replaced altogether with SCE encrypted jingle messages though?)
  616. vanitasvitae Not sure what implementors of Jingle would prefer
  617. millesimus has joined
  618. singpolyma has joined
  619. goffi vanitasvitae: is any known implementation at the moment? In my case SCE is already implemented, so I'm happy if it's used.
  620. goffi is there any known implementation*
  621. vanitasvitae I'm not aware of any.
  622. inky has left
  623. vanitasvitae I think conversations opted for something completely different? cc Daniel
  624. sebastian has left
  625. sebastian has joined
  626. goffi I'll go with current version for now, and make necessary changes when the updated version will be available, thanks vanitasvitae.
  627. kryptos has joined
  628. kryptos has left
  629. mh has left
  630. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has left
  631. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has joined
  632. kryptos has joined
  633. kryptos has left
  634. Daniel I thought we used JET. I can't check the code right now but I vaguely remembering sitting in a cafe with larma and implementing it
  635. mh has joined
  636. millesimus has left
  637. vanitasvitae For file transfer or for AV?
  638. vanitasvitae I though AV used some DTLS stuff?
  639. Daniel File transfer
  640. inky has joined
  641. vanitasvitae Right, I can see some JET related stuff in the JFT implementation of Conversations
  642. kryptos has joined
  643. kryptos has left
  644. larma I think SCE for Jingle would be great, but I don't think SCE is properly specd for IQs yet
  645. singpolyma SCE doesn't completely solve jingle unless you use IBB right?
  646. millesimus has joined
  647. vanitasvitae larma, I agree
  648. vanitasvitae Since I haven't created an implementation for IQs along with the spec, I sort of "blind drafted" 😛
  649. vanitasvitae singpolyma, you could encrypt the whole jingle init stanza with SCE and include a plain security element in there
  650. goffi singpolyma: it's just used to exchange keys, transfert is done out of band as usual (only it's encrypted).
  651. singpolyma goffi: oh yeah, that makes sense
  652. singpolyma For bits of binary it could encrypt the whole thing too, though at the expense of shrinking the max file size that works
  653. kryptos has joined
  654. kryptos has left
  655. goffi for very small files, yes IBB could work out of the band with SCE
  656. goffi out of the box*
  657. Zash or BOB!
  658. vanitasvitae for the sake of genericism (is that even a word?) you probably don't want to SCE all the IBBs but instead negotiate a transport key and use that to protect the IBB session
  659. singpolyma You can do big files with IBB, just have to wait awhile ;)
  660. vanitasvitae So you can swap out IBB for another transport more easily
  661. Zash Server rate limits has entered the chat.
  662. inky has left
  663. goffi vanitasvitae: right, but you then end up with 2 layers of e2ee with IBB (SCE + JET).
  664. vanitasvitae why?
  665. kryptos has joined
  666. kryptos has left
  667. Zash (+TLS!!!1)
  668. vanitasvitae You only SCE(Jingle Init + plain TS) and then JET(IBB)
  669. goffi vanitasvitae: except if I missed something, you would have to make an exception inside SCE for IBB, sure it's possible but I can imagine how this can go wrong easily.
  670. Kev has joined
  671. goffi anyway, IBB should hopefully be barely needed nowadays.
  672. vanitasvitae Ah now I see what you mean
  673. singpolyma IBB is pretty important, since it's the only thing that always works
  674. vanitasvitae I guess you are right. For IBB it probably makes sense to only use SCE then and use JET for out of band transports
  675. singpolyma It like to implement ice-tcp eventually, maybe some other stuff
  676. singpolyma I'd like to implement ice-tcp eventually, maybe some other stuff
  677. goffi singpolyma: sure it's important to have it just in case, but the less it's used, the better.
  678. singpolyma goffi: I sort of agree, except that if it is used *too* little it doesn't get tested enough and starts to break in clients and then people who do need it their file transfers don't work
  679. Ray22 has left
  680. djorz has left
  681. jcbrand has left
  682. jcbrand has joined
  683. kryptos has joined
  684. kryptos has left
  685. millesimus has left
  686. millesimus has joined
  687. antranigv has joined
  688. inky has joined
  689. Andrzej has left
  690. kryptos has joined
  691. kryptos has left
  692. Menel has left
  693. Menel has joined
  694. kryptos has joined
  695. kryptos has left
  696. Menel has left
  697. Menel has joined
  698. Menel has left
  699. Menel has joined
  700. Steve Kille has joined
  701. inky has left
  702. singpolyma has left
  703. singpolyma has joined
  704. kryptos has joined
  705. kryptos has left
  706. Fishbowler has left
  707. Fishbowler has joined
  708. Steve Kille has left
  709. kryptos has joined
  710. kryptos has left
  711. kryptos has joined
  712. kryptos has left
  713. Andrzej has joined
  714. inky has joined
  715. kryptos has joined
  716. kryptos has left
  717. Tobias has left
  718. Tobias has joined
  719. Tobias has left
  720. Tobias has joined
  721. kryptos has joined
  722. kryptos has left
  723. floretta has left
  724. stp has joined
  725. Vaulor has left
  726. kryptos has joined
  727. kryptos has left
  728. floretta has joined
  729. thilo.molitor has left
  730. singpolyma has left
  731. thilo.molitor has joined
  732. kryptos has joined
  733. kryptos has left
  734. Tobias has left
  735. Tobias has joined
  736. Tobias has left
  737. Tobias has joined
  738. antranigv has left
  739. neshtaxmpp has left
  740. neshtaxmpp has joined
  741. Tobias has left
  742. Tobias has joined
  743. singpolyma has joined
  744. Ingolf has joined
  745. Steve Kille has joined
  746. Tobias has left
  747. Tobias has joined
  748. eevvoor has left
  749. mathijs has left
  750. mathijs has joined
  751. Paganini has left
  752. kinetik has joined
  753. xnamed has left
  754. xnamed has joined
  755. sbach has left
  756. sbach has joined
  757. Tim R has left
  758. pablo has joined
  759. belove has left
  760. belove has joined
  761. Steve Kille has left
  762. kryptos has joined
  763. kryptos has left
  764. pablo has left
  765. mathijs has left
  766. mathijs has joined
  767. bhavy has left
  768. p42ity has joined
  769. neshtaxmpp has left
  770. neshtaxmpp has joined
  771. bhavy has joined
  772. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has left
  773. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has joined
  774. Menel has left
  775. Menel has joined
  776. jgart has joined
  777. stp has left
  778. marc0s has left
  779. marc0s has joined
  780. kryptos has joined
  781. kryptos has left
  782. neox has joined
  783. sbach has left
  784. sbach has joined
  785. Menel has left
  786. Menel has joined
  787. Menel has left
  788. Menel has joined
  789. Vaulor has joined
  790. Tobias has left
  791. Tobias has joined
  792. Fishbowler has left
  793. Fishbowler has joined
  794. Syndace (test message please ignore)
  795. Zash NEVER
  796. catchy has left
  797. catchy has joined
  798. Syndace flow, you are one of the authors of OX, right?
  799. atomicwatch has left
  800. stp has joined
  801. Syndace If so, I'd appreciate if you took a look at this email thread: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2022-August/038949.html
  802. Syndace (and everybody else who has experience with OX too)
  803. wladmis has left
  804. wladmis has joined
  805. wladmis has left
  806. wladmis has joined
  807. kryptos has joined
  808. kryptos has left
  809. atomicwatch has joined
  810. moparisthebest Trung: may I suggest "snikket:" for a new url scheme
  811. adiaholic has left
  812. adiaholic has joined
  813. coleman has left
  814. coleman has joined
  815. kryptos has joined
  816. kryptos has left
  817. Trung has left
  818. Trung has joined
  819. Trung has left
  820. Trung has joined
  821. kryptos has joined
  822. kryptos has left
  823. kryptos has joined
  824. kryptos has left
  825. kryptos has joined
  826. kryptos has left
  827. kryptos has joined
  828. kryptos has left
  829. kryptos has joined
  830. kryptos has left
  831. djorz has joined
  832. djorz has left
  833. djorz has joined
  834. kryptos has joined
  835. kryptos has left
  836. Andrzej has left
  837. Andrzej has joined
  838. kryptos has joined
  839. Tobias has left
  840. Tobias has joined
  841. Tobias has left
  842. Tobias has joined
  843. Tobias has left
  844. Tobias has joined
  845. Tobias has left
  846. Tobias has joined
  847. arc has left
  848. arc has joined
  849. Tobias has left
  850. Tobias has joined
  851. Tobias has left
  852. Tobias has joined
  853. Tobias has left
  854. Tobias has joined
  855. Tobias has left
  856. Tobias has joined
  857. Tobias has left
  858. Tobias has joined
  859. Tobias has left
  860. Tobias has joined
  861. Tobias has left
  862. Tobias has joined
  863. Tobias has left
  864. Tobias has joined
  865. Tobias has left
  866. Tobias has joined
  867. Tobias has left
  868. Tobias has joined
  869. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has left
  870. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has joined
  871. Trung hahaha why the hell not hahahahaha let's start a monolopoly
  872. Menel Hehe. Only a brand
  873. Trung how about `xep:`?
  874. Trung it's not on the ‘official’ web page either.
  875. Menel xep: is obviously to link to a xep..
  876. Trung i think people can pronouce `xep:` much better than `xmpp:`
  877. mjk aaaa: would probably most accessible to pronounciation
  878. Trung yeah… i don't know man. the whole reason i register trung.fun was because i don't know which name to take and .fun was cheap so
  879. Steve Kille has joined
  880. papatutuwawa has left
  881. papatutuwawa has joined
  882. eevvoor has joined
  883. Tobias has left
  884. Tobias has joined
  885. jcbrand has left
  886. Zash `slash-colon-at-dot:`
  887. Trung and then later I realized that ‘fun’ if read in Vietnamese would be ‘phân’ which means ‘shit’ in English
  888. Steve Kille has left
  889. Trung too freakin late to change now =]]]]]]]]]
  890. mjk yes, naming is hard
  891. moparisthebest How often do you say url schemes out loud
  892. moparisthebest why yes visit my webpage at h t t p s colon forward slash forward slash w w w dot ...
  893. singpolyma Aech tee tee pee semicolon backslash backslash double yew double yew double yew dot
  894. wladmis has left
  895. wladmis has joined
  896. Trung not that you say it out loud, but we are providing a chat service and it is called ‘xmpp’ which is very difficult to say to another person. There are other chat services that are very easy to pass around which im sure u know already.
  897. moparisthebest Sorry do you say XMPP to other people?
  898. Trung not that you say it out loud all the time, but we are providing a chat service and it is called ‘xmpp’ which is very difficult to say to another person. There are other chat services that are very easy to pass around which im sure u know already.
  899. wladmis has left
  900. wladmis has joined
  901. moparisthebest Do WhatsApp users say "funxmpp but now with json" to each other? Strange
  902. xnamed has left
  903. moparisthebest When people ask me for my website I don't start with "first you need a TCP stack then..."
  904. moparisthebest My point is you are at the wrong protocol layer here, you don't tell people "contact me on XMPP" you say "install Snikket and send me a message" or whatever, same as every other chat system
  905. singpolyma Trung: it's all about context. If I'm talking about the network in a general way I'll say Jabber of course. More often I'm talking about a particular app. But URIs are technical details, it's about a protocol, and the protocol is named XMPP
  906. singpolyma Usually users don't need to see the URI at all, they can just click a link, etc
  907. singpolyma Unless you're printing on a business card or something maybe?
  908. Trung that's exactly my point. it's confusing with mail system
  909. Trung that's why people will have to see the uri
  910. singpolyma Why? Why would you show them the URI? What is the context?
  911. Trung bussiness card
  912. Trung u just said it
  913. singpolyma Ah, ok. So specifically if they still do business cards where you are then yeah. Though even then I'd probably write "Jabber ID: me@example.com" not a raw URI. Put the URI in a qr code
  914. Trung ok so we go for `Jabber ID:`
  915. singpolyma For labelling a jabber id that seems like the right label :)
  916. mh has left
  917. Trung i thought we don't want to use `jabber:`
  918. mh has joined
  919. singpolyma Trung: not as a URI scheme
  920. Trung but mailto is not smtp
  921. Trung and pop and imap
  922. moparisthebest I don't say jabber either, that's that old Cisco tool that doesn't work well
  923. Trung which level are we on lol
  924. singpolyma Trung: mailto is a mistake that's all
  925. singpolyma It's a bad URI scheme
  926. singpolyma But we can't fix it now
  927. Trung puffff what is `im:`
  928. moparisthebest Has anyone ever seen mailto: on a business card? Not me
  929. Trung i have seen plenty
  930. singpolyma I haven't seen a business card this decade 🤷‍♂️
  931. moparisthebest Just put you@your.domain on there and people will email you or send you an XMPP message, no problem
  932. xnamed has joined
  933. Trung we can do `snikket:` if that's what u really up to mate. but mixing up mail and xmpp will cause confusion and it will be hard to spread. that's all i'm saying.
  934. Menel Trung: just recommend one client and tell them. About that. And advanced and later, you can tell them that you can actually use different apps because it's an open standard.. 🤯. One of the biggest problem is people trying all clients at once at the beginning and then saying the feature are buggy and bad.. Because they don't compare the best client with $alternative but always the worst.
  935. catchy has left
  936. Trung Snikket currently is not getting notification mate 😁 it is already confusing enough
  937. Trung Siskin currently is not getting notification mate 😁 it is already confusing enough
  938. Trung ↑ sorry ↑
  939. Menel For just an address stay with xmpp:... Because you don't change https:, do you?
  940. Menel It's some meaningless technical link.. It's more important what it does once someone presses it
  941. *IM* has joined
  942. belove has left
  943. Trung ok i'll just remove the uri all together and let people be confused
  944. Menel I honestly don't get you. But do what you want, it's your service.
  945. singpolyma Trung: if you want to label it for humans to read, use a human label, that's all. A URI is for computers not mostly for humans
  946. bean has joined
  947. singpolyma No label is also valid as some have said here, depending on context
  948. Menel Like https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1 There is no xmpp: visible.. But every link will just do that...
  949. singpolyma Yeah. This is why cheogram android also doesn't show just saw xmpp URIs in chats
  950. singpolyma Yeah. This is why cheogram android also doesn't show just raw xmpp URIs in chats
  951. belove has joined
  952. Trung sorry i cannot be any clearer. it is confusing for people who already have emails to see that because they are used to seeing mailto: or email: attach to user@domain.org. I just want to minimize that. But that's what u guys suggesting then sure i'll remove the uri.
  953. Kev has left
  954. Menel Trung: did you Visit > https://search.jabber.network/rooms/1 For inspiration? Maybe that would be an approach for you?
  955. singpolyma Trung: email: would be a label for humans, not a URI. Feel free to usefully label with the name of the thing, like Jabber ID
  956. singpolyma Menel: this is for printing on paper
  957. belove has left
  958. Menel Ah
  959. Trung the second point is it is difficult to spread the actual xmpp which at the current moment, a it-just-work user will be very confused when they are told they should try another app with the same account. because they might be confused with email apps too and it will cause more trouble.
  960. Trung i'm just pointing out the fact that people who doesn't understand all this uri stuff will be very freakin confused.
  961. moparisthebest When you read a domain name do you often think "huh is that a website or a Java package name?" I don't think that's actually a problem in practice
  962. BASSGOD has left
  963. p42ity has left
  964. moparisthebest People don't and shouldn't understand URI things, those are for clicking, only the computer needs to understand them
  965. Menel One can also print a website that has a button to the chat.. https://conversations.im/j/xsf@muc.xmpp.org
  966. Trung there is only one type of app for website. it's call browser
  967. flow Syndace, could you priortize your points somehow. I have seen the email but my main problem is that I don't have the time to provide a detailed answer for each point. and I somehow don't want to answer arbitrary question
  968. Trung u get any browser u like the domain will return the website
  969. flow Syndace, could you priortize your points somehow? I have seen the email but my main problem is that I don't have the time to provide a detailed answer for each point. and I somehow don't want to answer arbitrary question
  970. Trung but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account. things don't go very well…
  971. Trung but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account, things don't go very well…
  972. singpolyma Trung: there are definitely multiple browsers with different names. Though less than there used to be I understand
  973. Menel There is nothing you can do about that > but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account, things don't go very well…
  974. moparisthebest BRB printing business cards with: > Firefox address: www.moparisthebest.com
  975. wladmis has left
  976. moparisthebest > but if u try to send mail to an xmpp account, things don't go very well… Why not? My email and XMPP address are the same
  977. singpolyma Make your jabber id and email address be the same, that's what I do
  978. Trung well nothing we can do really?
  979. wladmis has joined
  980. flow Syndace, could you priortize your points somehow? I have seen the email but my main problem is that I don't have the time to provide a detailed answer for each point. and I somehow don't want to answer arbitrary questions
  981. Menel No
  982. singpolyma Mine also works for SIP and someday AP
  983. Trung what if u just have an xmpp and no email
  984. belove has joined
  985. singpolyma I'm working on that
  986. singpolyma Soon you'll be able to set an MX and get emails over xmpp if you don't have email otherwise
  987. Menel Jids won't be changed to some scheme not beeing local@server
  988. Trung me too i would like to get rid of emails all together
  989. Trung but we are not there yet
  990. coleman has left
  991. coleman has joined
  992. Menel You'll need a text about : "open that link in this chat app: xmpp:....."
  993. flow Syndace, but if I find time I may try to answer one point at a time. so please don't be surprised that you may not get a full answer immediately. I could also offer that we have a video chat sometimes, as I believe some questions require a more interactive answer
  994. flow would that be an option for you?
  995. Trung Menel, I have that. But opening the app would mean they need to have an app first. So most will register through website then go to the clients page then figure out how they hell they can install it, then it doesn't work then download an app for email, then use whatsapp
  996. Syndace flow: thanks, I'll respond tomorrow
  997. atomicwatch has left
  998. Syndace Most things aren't super important - I'll just aim for compat with Gajim for noe
  999. atomicwatch has joined
  1000. Trung sorry people i'll stop spamming here coz i think i made it clear enough. thanks everybody.
  1001. neshtaxmpp has left
  1002. neshtaxmpp has joined
  1003. Menel Did you look at the snikket invite page? It seems to do exactly that. Steer the user to the app and automate the sign up
  1004. Trung Menel, I'm doing exactly that too. The confusion problem comes when stuff don't work.
  1005. belove has left
  1006. Trung if it just works, they never ever have to download a new app to their device and that is it.
  1007. Romeo has joined
  1008. xnamed has left
  1009. belove has joined
  1010. Kev has joined
  1011. wladmis has left
  1012. wladmis has joined
  1013. flow Syndace, kk
  1014. xnamed has joined
  1015. Andrzej has left
  1016. Romeo has left
  1017. Romeo has joined
  1018. singpolyma has left
  1019. Romeo has left
  1020. Romeo has joined
  1021. Romeo has left
  1022. Kev has left
  1023. Patiga has left
  1024. neshtaxmpp has left
  1025. neshtaxmpp has joined
  1026. Patiga has joined
  1027. Ge0rG has left
  1028. asterix has left
  1029. singpolyma has joined
  1030. projjalm has joined
  1031. djorz has left
  1032. djorz has joined
  1033. eevvoor has left
  1034. wladmis has left
  1035. wladmis has joined
  1036. belove has left
  1037. belove has joined
  1038. mirux has left
  1039. mirux has joined
  1040. rubi has left
  1041. rubi has joined
  1042. djorz has left
  1043. Ge0rG has joined
  1044. mirux has left
  1045. inky has left
  1046. inky has joined
  1047. bean has left
  1048. mirux has joined
  1049. atomicwatch has left
  1050. atomicwatch has joined
  1051. Titi has left
  1052. xnamed has left
  1053. Titi has joined
  1054. xnamed has joined
  1055. Seve has left
  1056. Seve has joined
  1057. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has left
  1058. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has joined
  1059. djorz has joined
  1060. Vidak has left
  1061. atomicwatch has left
  1062. asterix has joined
  1063. stp has left
  1064. neox has left
  1065. neox has joined
  1066. Maxence has left
  1067. goffi has left
  1068. inky has left
  1069. inky has joined
  1070. belove has left
  1071. belove has joined
  1072. rubi has left
  1073. rubi has joined
  1074. LNJ has left
  1075. chipmnk has left
  1076. Tobias has left
  1077. Tobias has joined
  1078. Tobias has left
  1079. Tobias has joined
  1080. Tobias has left
  1081. Tobias has joined
  1082. Tobias has left
  1083. Tobias has joined
  1084. pablo has joined
  1085. Tobias has left
  1086. Tobias has joined
  1087. Tobias has left
  1088. Tobias has joined
  1089. Tobias has left
  1090. Tobias has joined
  1091. Tobias has left
  1092. Tobias has joined
  1093. Yagiza has left
  1094. Tobias has left
  1095. Tobias has joined
  1096. Tobias has left
  1097. Tobias has joined
  1098. Tobias has left
  1099. Tobias has joined
  1100. Mario Sabatino has left
  1101. papatutuwawa has left
  1102. floretta has left
  1103. projjalm has left
  1104. asterix has left
  1105. Projjal has left
  1106. floretta has joined
  1107. singpolyma has left
  1108. djorz has left
  1109. belove has left
  1110. singpolyma has joined
  1111. belove has joined
  1112. mirux has left
  1113. Vidak has joined
  1114. wurstsalat has left
  1115. djorz has joined
  1116. floretta has left
  1117. floretta has joined
  1118. xnamed has left
  1119. marc0s has left
  1120. karoshi has left
  1121. marc0s has joined
  1122. adiaholic has left
  1123. xnamed has joined
  1124. adiaholic has joined
  1125. pablo has left
  1126. lskdjf has left
  1127. djorz has left
  1128. floretta has left
  1129. wgreenhouse has left
  1130. wgreenhouse has joined
  1131. floretta has joined
  1132. neox has left