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wurstsalat
hi folks! I tried to make the build process of xmpp.org's software section a bit more informative. if you look at the "Prepare software list" and "Generate/add compliance data" sections in each build log, you'll see which package is expired, which one offers a DOAP file (I count 52 already, hooray!), and which one doesn't. also, problems with calculating compliance data become obvious this way. here is an example: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/actions/runs/3494138103/jobs/5849652578
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wurstsalat
https://spacecloud.one/upload/7b02c1d5-c807-48b1-a441-9c724c511507/1dd19897-aa15-4158-9b31-a8b4ab4342ef.png
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MattJ
Very nice!
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flow
indeed :)
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Ge0rG
> Compliance data available, but no match for: P\u00e0d\u00e9 Say what?
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Ge0rG
THAI CHARACTER YO YING?
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wurstsalat
It's Pàdé, and probably an encoding issue in the tool chain :) I'm trying to fix that
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Guus
Hehehe. Welcome to my everlasting effort to fix encoding issues in Ignite's tool chain too. Thanks for that, Dele :)
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Guus
Looks pretty sweet, by the way, mr. Salat.
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Guus
It's sad to see so many projects having expired. I stand by the reasoning behind us hiding them (and we successfully get rid of a lot of crud this way), but maybe we should consider not completely hiding potential value. Can we expose those expired entries behind some kind of link? Something like: "Can't find what you're looking for? Please click here for older listings, that have not been updated in a while."
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nicomuc
would it make sense to have a "component" section in the softwares listed on xmpp.org? also, wouldn't it be nice to use the doap files to list which client/server/lib[/component?] implements a XEP in xmpp.org/extensions/xep-XXXX.html?
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Guus
oh, I have very strong arguments on that. Confusingly, they are both for and against that idea. :)
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nicoco
erm, about Q1 or Q2? ^^
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Guus
2
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Guus
i'm ambivalent on 1.
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Guus
on 2, damnit
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Guus
typing is hard.
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Guus
on 1, I do not have a strong opinion any way.
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nicoco
my idea for 1 is that slidge (sorry for being self-centered, but this is what I know...) could be listed as a library, but then there is no right place for slidge-signal or telegabber; a component section would be suited.
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Ge0rG
Guus: q1: I think the general consensus was to move implementations to DOAP and to display their best compliance suite value, so unmaintained ones will end up showing as "Basic Client 2006" or somesuch
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wurstsalat
Guus: yes, listing those in a separate section may be an option. and as Ge0rG says
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Ge0rG
and then maybe to display-filter based on current year(s)?
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nicoco
about 2, it's just a usual/recurring confusion I had while trying to do stuff "the modern way" but I guess modernxmpp.org is the answer. also some XEPs are deferred or still experimental while widely implemented so it's a bit confusing sometimes... but it's just lack of (human) resources to actually advance their state I guess
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wurstsalat
and yes, a filter box is a good idea. I'll add compliance results to each cards, so they can be spotted easily. maybe we can get rid of the renewal process after that, and list packages with a DOAP file (those with a compliance level prominently), and others less prominently
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wurstsalat
nicoco: I think those should be 5 categories: clients, servers, libraries, components, tools (we have all of those listed, but components and tools are in libraries atm)
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Guus
Ge0rG: I think that you're numbering differently than nico and I are doing, but: understood.
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Guus
should we worry that to much automation will cause developers to fake compliancy in order to get linked as much as possible?
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wurstsalat
I think this will happen inevitably, and we should act when it does. but less automation would lead to outdated/incorrect values instantly
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Kev
> developers to fake compliancy in order to get linked as much as possible? History says this is likely to happen, as it happened even with non-automated lists.
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Kev
Whether that's actually a problem worth giving much thought to might be another matter.
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Zash
faking entries > expired entries ? :)
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Ge0rG
you can't prevent people from faking stuff.
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Ge0rG
but I think that people lying about their XEP compliance will be the exception, not the rule
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emus
Should we really have 5 lists. I was the one starting to add tools to libraries
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wurstsalat
Where to add components then? Servers?
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flow
one list where every entry is assigned (at least) one category?
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emus
First would prefer to have it in one list and only key that differs. then we can have it on one page with respective sections?
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edhelas
Would it be possible to extend Vcard4 and add Mastodon profile link in it somehow ?
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Zash
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6350#section-6.7.8 ?
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wurstsalat
flow, yes, good point
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edhelas
Zash, it's a bit more than a URL, there is no way to know if the URL is actually a Mastodon one because of the federation
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Zash
Does the user or the code need to know that it is Mastodon in particular? Or, generic ActivityPub?
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Zash
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6350#section-5.6 allows for some x-name except https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6648 deprecates it
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Zash
Write an RFC that adds some TYPE value for social media to the registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/vcard-elements/vcard-elements.xhtml#parameter-values .... ?
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Zash
Generic human-readable description of the field would have been nice I think✎ -
jonas’
but l10n
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jonas’
and i18n
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Zash
Generic human-readable description of the property* would have been nice I think ✏
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Zash
jonas’, oh no, now you need language tags for the properties :(
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Zash
Without inventing something new and namespaced, I'd suggest `<url><uri>https://fosstodon.org/@zash</uri><type>x-activitypub</type></url>`
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edhelas
Mhhh 🤔
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singpolyma
Zash, edhelas: or use the acct: URI for their webfinger
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edhelas
How does it look like ?
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singpolyma
acct: if just used for webfinger so just the scheme makes it pretty unambiguous. Do webfinger lookup to know any specific things like profile url etc
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singpolyma
acct:user@mastodon.social
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edhelas
acct:@user@mastodon.social no ?
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Zash
no
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singpolyma
edhelas: no
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singpolyma
There is no leading @ in activitypub or webfinger stuff
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singpolyma
That's just how Mastodon users type into their text box because of Twitter syntax for replies
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edhelas
Okay
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singpolyma
(technically activitypub doesn't require or suggest webfinger at all, but Mastodon has made it near universal for AP users)
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raucao
That didn't come from mastodon, but from ostatus iirc
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raucao
I.e. gnusocial et al
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singpolyma
raucao: it was developed by the OpenID crowd and used by OStatus, but Mastodon is who mandated it in conjunction with ActivityPub specifically
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Zash
IIRC Google+ too
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raucao
Mastodon used it with ostatus before was my point
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raucao
Does AP define a discovery mechanism at all?
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raucao
> IIRC Google+ too Huh, that's interesting! Why did they need to discover URLs for their own users?
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Zash
IIRC in AP you GET some URL with Accept: application/json and see if you get JSON-LD back, or somesuch
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singpolyma
raucao: yes, AP discovery is done on HTTP level
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raucao
What does that mean? Webfinger is also just http
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singpolyma
raucao: no, webfinger starts with acct: URI and turns it into http
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singpolyma
AP starts with the HTTP that the webfinger can be used to discover
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raucao
So that's a no
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singpolyma
What's a no?
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raucao
No discovery defined
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raucao
You have to know the URLs beforehand
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singpolyma
Discovery from what? With webfinger you need to know the acct URI beforehand also
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raucao
No you don't
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singpolyma
It's thing@domain.tld vs https://domain.tld/thing that's all
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raucao
It's defined as a well-known URL. You only need to know the user address
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raucao
Which can point to wherever
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raucao
An end user doesn't know your full URL. Discovering it is what is called discovery in webfinger. You could also use a URL with it
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Tim R
K
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raucao
But you have to discover inbox URLs etc for AP
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singpolyma
Yes, those aren't in webfinger
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raucao
They sure are
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singpolyma
Webfinger just points at the AP endpoint
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singpolyma
And then you discover anything additional from there
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raucao
Ah right sry brain fart
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raucao
It points to a profile actually
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singpolyma
Mastodon uses webfinger for two reasons: to allow using @ instead of / in the address and to reuse the old OStatus remote follow protocol
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raucao
But yes you would have to know the full profile URL which can be different for every server and software
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raucao
It's not just a slasg✎ -
raucao
It's not just a slash ✏
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raucao
And it doesn't even have to be on the same domain
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singpolyma
As the webfinger? Sure, it doesn't have to be, that's fine
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raucao
I mean it's very similar to xmpp in that regard
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singpolyma
You still need to know there user's address. The only difference is address format
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raucao
Same address format
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raucao
user@host
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singpolyma
Usually you go to their webpage (at a url) to find out their webfinger address anyway
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singpolyma
So for me I usually just cut-paste the url I have and ignore we finger. Saves me a step✎ -
singpolyma
So for me I usually just cut-paste the url I have and ignore webfinger. Saves me a step ✏
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raucao
I think we can agree that most users click on a name somewhere and don't know what a URL is :)
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raucao
hence the "I'm @somename" problem with everyone being on centralized services
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singpolyma
Sure, most users don't use the webfinger URI either. They click the follow button
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raucao
I'm very happy people learn about user addresses that aren't email addresses now
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Zash
Put `<a href="mastodon/@me">follow me on mastodon</a>` on your wobpage
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raucao
(I'm working on remoteStorage and we also prescribe webfinger. But most people type their email address in connect dialogs)
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raucao
People definitely use the webfinger IDs now, because that's how you mention someone on a different fedi instance
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Zash
If you wanna discover non-google microblog or storage endpoint from users' gmail then you have a problem yes.
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singpolyma
Yeah, we have half a dozen gmails get typed into our boxes labelled "jabber id" it's fun
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raucao
Yes, and it's mostly a cultural problem. Like email addresses also were, or hashtags, or @usernames
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raucao
Or phone numbers even
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raucao
Remember people having to learn cellphone numbers?
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raucao
🤣
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Zash
Have I finally forgotten my ICQ number?
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singpolyma
Mine was too long to remember. My dad had a nice short one
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singpolyma
I spent so much energy trying to get people off other IM services and on to ICQ back in the day, rarely successfully
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Zash
ICQ was my first
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wurstsalat
> Have I finally forgotten my ICQ number? never
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Zash
half of it seemed to have dropped out of muscle memory
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mjk
> Have I finally forgotten my ICQ number? I tried to remember mine... and I succeeded, globdammit 🤦️ and it was a 9-digit one, even
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mjk
anyway, thanks for mentioning webfinger. I was recently very disappointed and headscratchy to not find some defined ap:user@server scheme. still disappointed to be required to fetch a pile of json via http 💢
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Ge0rG
mine is seven digits, but number logins have been deactivated how long ago?
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nicoco
very basic question incoming: how do I locally render HTML from XEPs? there sure are a lot of different scripts in this repo ^^ also, anyone ever worked on something like a markdown to XML thing for XEP? maybe with pandoc or so?
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nicoco
oh, tools/2xep.lua looks like what I was looking for
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Fishbowler
on a similar vein - I've wanted to do a browser extension for ages that'd work with XEPs to translate the examples into something in your own context. A lot of the work I do is testing, and I'm often translating from shakespeare to something more boring :)
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Ge0rG
nicoco: `make xep-0433.html` should do the trick and put the HTML render result into build/xep-0433.html
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Zash
nicoco, 2xep.lua is markdown → xep-xml, you want tools/xep2md.sh ?
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Zash
for html, just `make xep-xxxx.html && open build/xep-xxxx.html` ?
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nicoco
Georg: great! so not used to compiling things that I did not even notice the Makefile.
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Zash
Oh, Ge0rG already said
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nicoco
Zash: well, both would be great actually, I'd like to propose an update, but I guess xml->md->editing->xml will induce too many diffs. I'll try it anyway, I don't have the XML-brain yet so it's really tedious to write XML directly.
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nicoco
thanks
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mjk
just do xml->json->editing->xml :trollface:
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Zash
`{"xep":"<xep><![CDATA[<html>....`
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nicoco
or xml->latex->xml maybe? jk I write everything in markdown since I discovered my lord and savior pandoc. all hail pandoc!
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singpolyma
I doubt the xep format can be properly represented in markdown or latex since it has all kinds of custom stuff
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jonas’
nicoco, make html
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Zash
pandoc is love, pandoc is life
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singpolyma
(such as entity references to other xeps)
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jonas’
Zash, `make build/xep-xxxx.html`, IIRC
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nicoco
singpolyma: there is a pandoc filter written by Zash that seems to cover just that ^^
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singpolyma
Ah. So custom markdown
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Zash
The pandoc filter should handle basic structure, metadata, but not stuff like entity references
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nicoco
maybe time to have som fun with pandoc and lua then!✎ -
nicoco
maybe time to have some fun with pandoc and lua then! ✏
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Zash
That may reach the limits of what markdown can do
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Ge0rG
jonas’: both paths work
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jonas’
fancy
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Ge0rG
Zash: lua xep renderer in koreader when? :D
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Zash
That's why I had xep→markdown, so I could pandoc it into .epub :)
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singpolyma
Can't pandoc read HTML and make epub from that? Especially since epub is just HTML in a zip
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Ge0rG
reminds me that the standard document format for RFCs still is US Letter.
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Zash
Ge0rG, I thought they went markdown-on-github now?
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Ge0rG
Zash: did they? are they going to markdown all the existing RFCs, too?
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Zash
unlikely, but most new things look like https://github.com/mlswg/mls-federation
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nicoco
I actually like markdown for redacting stuff... is that a bad thing?
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Ge0rG
not at all, markdown is a nice trade-off for 90% of tech docs
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Ge0rG
if you have a dialect that supports tables and diagrams, you are probably at 95%
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nicoco
I wrote my phd thesis with markdown (+pandoc +some awful scripts to make it fit the latex template the uni wanted me to use). so I think it can cover anything 🙂✎ -
nicoco
I wrote my phd thesis in markdown (+pandoc +some awful scripts to make it fit the latex template the uni wanted me to use). so I think it can cover anything 🙂 ✏
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Ge0rG
I wrote my phd in LaTeX.
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Ge0rG
nicoco: well, it depends what you wrote your phd about.
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nicoco
to me, it's just too much useless things markup things, be it latex or html. the promise of separating content from formatting doesn't hold. whereas with basic markup languages, you can actually focus on the content. but as usual, whatever works for whoever is fine 😉✎ -
nicoco
to me, it's just too much useless markup things, be it latex or html. the promise of separating content from formatting doesn't hold. whereas with basic markup languages, you can actually focus on the content. but as usual, whatever works for whoever is fine 😉 ✏
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nicoco
to me, it's just too much ~useless~ distracting markup things, be it latex or html. the promise of separating content from formatting doesn't hold. whereas with basic markup languages, you can actually focus on the content. but as usual, whatever works for whoever is fine 😉 ✏
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Zash
What I've done is write early drafts in markdown, then turn to xep-xml for submission and future editing... if I ever got that far
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Ge0rG
yeah, I wouldn't do another document in TeX today, I'm too old for this shit
- jonas’ hides the main.tex
- flow likes LaTeX
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flow
that said, ietf's markdown to xml tooling is pretty good and I see many I-D being written that way (rfc4880bis for an recent example)
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flow
I wonder if we couldn't do something similar for XEPs
- nicoco likes latex via a pandoc template
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flow
that is, keep the existing XML infrastructure and tooling
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flow
but be able to feed it with something markdownish
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jonas’
yes please
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jonas’
would also help the editor a lot
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jonas’
(but not as much as other things in the ~"Editor Tooling" label ;-))
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flow
And I'd really would love if XEPs had a meta layer with rationale, design considerations, and further secondary information. the layer wouldn't show by default, but if you ever wondered why something is designed the way it is, then you may be able to look it up
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jonas’
isn't Design Considerations even a part of the template nowadays?
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flow
it is, but ignore that for now, it's misleading for my point :)
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flow
essentially technical documentation consists of specifications (how you do things) and rationale/motoviation (why you do things)
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flow
if both things are immediatly present, then first-time implementors can be overwhelmed by the provided information
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jonas’
ah
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jonas’
yeah that makes sense kindof
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flow
so my idea is to have a "space" for secondary things that are not directly required to implement what is documented
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flow
of course, this "space" should be within the document itself, it just should be rendered/presented differently (e.g., hidden, with a visible hint that something is hidden there, by default)
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wurstsalat
Guus, fixed Pàdé ;)
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mjk
ftr, it never was anything Thai because \u is followed only by 4 digits :P (i.e., 00e0, not 00e0d)
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Ge0rG
mjk: bummer!✎ -
Ge0rG
mjk: bummer! thanks for pointing that out, I totally fell for it ✏
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Alex
another reminder here as well for our current board&council elections. When you are a member and have not voted yet then please take some time and do so. Thanks
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mjk
Ge0rG: happens to the best of us :D
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emus
This is the draft for the next release covering November 2022. https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/1209
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emus
If you support, please put your nick, we would like name our contributors. But feel free to stay anonymous of course