XSF Discussion - 2022-11-18


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  350. wurstsalat hi folks! I tried to make the build process of xmpp.org's software section a bit more informative. if you look at the "Prepare software list" and "Generate/add compliance data" sections in each build log, you'll see which package is expired, which one offers a DOAP file (I count 52 already, hooray!), and which one doesn't. also, problems with calculating compliance data become obvious this way. here is an example: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/actions/runs/3494138103/jobs/5849652578
  351. wurstsalat https://spacecloud.one/upload/7b02c1d5-c807-48b1-a441-9c724c511507/1dd19897-aa15-4158-9b31-a8b4ab4342ef.png
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  358. MattJ Very nice!
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  396. flow indeed :)
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  402. Ge0rG > Compliance data available, but no match for: P\u00e0d\u00e9 Say what?
  403. Ge0rG THAI CHARACTER YO YING?
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  405. wurstsalat It's Pàdé, and probably an encoding issue in the tool chain :) I'm trying to fix that
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  424. Guus Hehehe. Welcome to my everlasting effort to fix encoding issues in Ignite's tool chain too. Thanks for that, Dele :)
  425. Guus Looks pretty sweet, by the way, mr. Salat.
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  438. Guus It's sad to see so many projects having expired. I stand by the reasoning behind us hiding them (and we successfully get rid of a lot of crud this way), but maybe we should consider not completely hiding potential value. Can we expose those expired entries behind some kind of link? Something like: "Can't find what you're looking for? Please click here for older listings, that have not been updated in a while."
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  441. nicomuc would it make sense to have a "component" section in the softwares listed on xmpp.org? also, wouldn't it be nice to use the doap files to list which client/server/lib[/component?] implements a XEP in xmpp.org/extensions/xep-XXXX.html?
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  443. Guus oh, I have very strong arguments on that. Confusingly, they are both for and against that idea. :)
  444. nicoco erm, about Q1 or Q2? ^^
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  446. Guus 2
  447. Guus i'm ambivalent on 1.
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  450. Guus on 2, damnit
  451. Guus typing is hard.
  452. Guus on 1, I do not have a strong opinion any way.
  453. nicoco my idea for 1 is that slidge (sorry for being self-centered, but this is what I know...) could be listed as a library, but then there is no right place for slidge-signal or telegabber; a component section would be suited.
  454. Ge0rG Guus: q1: I think the general consensus was to move implementations to DOAP and to display their best compliance suite value, so unmaintained ones will end up showing as "Basic Client 2006" or somesuch
  455. wurstsalat Guus: yes, listing those in a separate section may be an option. and as Ge0rG says
  456. Ge0rG and then maybe to display-filter based on current year(s)?
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  460. nicoco about 2, it's just a usual/recurring confusion I had while trying to do stuff "the modern way" but I guess modernxmpp.org is the answer. also some XEPs are deferred or still experimental while widely implemented so it's a bit confusing sometimes... but it's just lack of (human) resources to actually advance their state I guess
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  463. wurstsalat and yes, a filter box is a good idea. I'll add compliance results to each cards, so they can be spotted easily. maybe we can get rid of the renewal process after that, and list packages with a DOAP file (those with a compliance level prominently), and others less prominently
  464. wurstsalat nicoco: I think those should be 5 categories: clients, servers, libraries, components, tools (we have all of those listed, but components and tools are in libraries atm)
  465. Guus Ge0rG: I think that you're numbering differently than nico and I are doing, but: understood.
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  475. Guus should we worry that to much automation will cause developers to fake compliancy in order to get linked as much as possible?
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  478. wurstsalat I think this will happen inevitably, and we should act when it does. but less automation would lead to outdated/incorrect values instantly
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  481. Kev > developers to fake compliancy in order to get linked as much as possible? History says this is likely to happen, as it happened even with non-automated lists.
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  484. Kev Whether that's actually a problem worth giving much thought to might be another matter.
  485. Zash faking entries > expired entries ? :)
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  487. Ge0rG you can't prevent people from faking stuff.
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  491. Ge0rG but I think that people lying about their XEP compliance will be the exception, not the rule
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  503. emus Should we really have 5 lists. I was the one starting to add tools to libraries
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  527. wurstsalat Where to add components then? Servers?
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  529. flow one list where every entry is assigned (at least) one category?
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  531. emus First would prefer to have it in one list and only key that differs. then we can have it on one page with respective sections?
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  536. edhelas Would it be possible to extend Vcard4 and add Mastodon profile link in it somehow ?
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  538. Zash https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6350#section-6.7.8 ?
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  546. wurstsalat flow, yes, good point
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  549. edhelas Zash, it's a bit more than a URL, there is no way to know if the URL is actually a Mastodon one because of the federation
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  552. Zash Does the user or the code need to know that it is Mastodon in particular? Or, generic ActivityPub?
  553. Zash https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6350#section-5.6 allows for some x-name except https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6648 deprecates it
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  556. Zash Write an RFC that adds some TYPE value for social media to the registry at https://www.iana.org/assignments/vcard-elements/vcard-elements.xhtml#parameter-values .... ?
  557. Zash Generic human-readable description of the field would have been nice I think
  558. jonas’ but l10n
  559. jonas’ and i18n
  560. Zash Generic human-readable description of the property* would have been nice I think
  561. Zash jonas’, oh no, now you need language tags for the properties :(
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  568. Zash Without inventing something new and namespaced, I'd suggest `<url><uri>https://fosstodon.org/@zash</uri><type>x-activitypub</type></url>`
  569. edhelas Mhhh 🤔
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  588. singpolyma Zash, edhelas: or use the acct: URI for their webfinger
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  590. edhelas How does it look like ?
  591. singpolyma acct: if just used for webfinger so just the scheme makes it pretty unambiguous. Do webfinger lookup to know any specific things like profile url etc
  592. singpolyma acct:user@mastodon.social
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  595. edhelas acct:@user@mastodon.social no ?
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  601. Zash no
  602. singpolyma edhelas: no
  603. singpolyma There is no leading @ in activitypub or webfinger stuff
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  606. singpolyma That's just how Mastodon users type into their text box because of Twitter syntax for replies
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  608. edhelas Okay
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  610. singpolyma (technically activitypub doesn't require or suggest webfinger at all, but Mastodon has made it near universal for AP users)
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  634. raucao That didn't come from mastodon, but from ostatus iirc
  635. raucao I.e. gnusocial et al
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  650. singpolyma raucao: it was developed by the OpenID crowd and used by OStatus, but Mastodon is who mandated it in conjunction with ActivityPub specifically
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  652. Zash IIRC Google+ too
  653. raucao Mastodon used it with ostatus before was my point
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  657. raucao Does AP define a discovery mechanism at all?
  658. raucao > IIRC Google+ too Huh, that's interesting! Why did they need to discover URLs for their own users?
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  661. Zash IIRC in AP you GET some URL with Accept: application/json and see if you get JSON-LD back, or somesuch
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  664. singpolyma raucao: yes, AP discovery is done on HTTP level
  665. raucao What does that mean? Webfinger is also just http
  666. singpolyma raucao: no, webfinger starts with acct: URI and turns it into http
  667. singpolyma AP starts with the HTTP that the webfinger can be used to discover
  668. raucao So that's a no
  669. singpolyma What's a no?
  670. raucao No discovery defined
  671. raucao You have to know the URLs beforehand
  672. singpolyma Discovery from what? With webfinger you need to know the acct URI beforehand also
  673. raucao No you don't
  674. singpolyma It's thing@domain.tld vs https://domain.tld/thing that's all
  675. raucao It's defined as a well-known URL. You only need to know the user address
  676. raucao Which can point to wherever
  677. raucao An end user doesn't know your full URL. Discovering it is what is called discovery in webfinger. You could also use a URL with it
  678. Tim R K
  679. raucao But you have to discover inbox URLs etc for AP
  680. singpolyma Yes, those aren't in webfinger
  681. raucao They sure are
  682. singpolyma Webfinger just points at the AP endpoint
  683. singpolyma And then you discover anything additional from there
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  685. raucao Ah right sry brain fart
  686. raucao It points to a profile actually
  687. singpolyma Mastodon uses webfinger for two reasons: to allow using @ instead of / in the address and to reuse the old OStatus remote follow protocol
  688. raucao But yes you would have to know the full profile URL which can be different for every server and software
  689. raucao It's not just a slasg
  690. raucao It's not just a slash
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  692. raucao And it doesn't even have to be on the same domain
  693. singpolyma As the webfinger? Sure, it doesn't have to be, that's fine
  694. raucao I mean it's very similar to xmpp in that regard
  695. singpolyma You still need to know there user's address. The only difference is address format
  696. raucao Same address format
  697. raucao user@host
  698. singpolyma Usually you go to their webpage (at a url) to find out their webfinger address anyway
  699. singpolyma So for me I usually just cut-paste the url I have and ignore we finger. Saves me a step
  700. singpolyma So for me I usually just cut-paste the url I have and ignore webfinger. Saves me a step
  701. raucao I think we can agree that most users click on a name somewhere and don't know what a URL is :)
  702. raucao hence the "I'm @somename" problem with everyone being on centralized services
  703. singpolyma Sure, most users don't use the webfinger URI either. They click the follow button
  704. raucao I'm very happy people learn about user addresses that aren't email addresses now
  705. Zash Put `<a href="mastodon/@me">follow me on mastodon</a>` on your wobpage
  706. raucao (I'm working on remoteStorage and we also prescribe webfinger. But most people type their email address in connect dialogs)
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  711. raucao People definitely use the webfinger IDs now, because that's how you mention someone on a different fedi instance
  712. Zash If you wanna discover non-google microblog or storage endpoint from users' gmail then you have a problem yes.
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  716. singpolyma Yeah, we have half a dozen gmails get typed into our boxes labelled "jabber id" it's fun
  717. raucao Yes, and it's mostly a cultural problem. Like email addresses also were, or hashtags, or @usernames
  718. raucao Or phone numbers even
  719. raucao Remember people having to learn cellphone numbers?
  720. raucao 🤣
  721. Zash Have I finally forgotten my ICQ number?
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  728. singpolyma Mine was too long to remember. My dad had a nice short one
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  731. singpolyma I spent so much energy trying to get people off other IM services and on to ICQ back in the day, rarely successfully
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  734. Zash ICQ was my first
  735. wurstsalat > Have I finally forgotten my ICQ number? never
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  748. Zash half of it seemed to have dropped out of muscle memory
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  795. mjk > Have I finally forgotten my ICQ number? I tried to remember mine... and I succeeded, globdammit 🤦️ and it was a 9-digit one, even
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  798. mjk anyway, thanks for mentioning webfinger. I was recently very disappointed and headscratchy to not find some defined ap:user@server scheme. still disappointed to be required to fetch a pile of json via http 💢
  799. Ge0rG mine is seven digits, but number logins have been deactivated how long ago?
  800. nicoco very basic question incoming: how do I locally render HTML from XEPs? there sure are a lot of different scripts in this repo ^^ also, anyone ever worked on something like a markdown to XML thing for XEP? maybe with pandoc or so?
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  803. nicoco oh, tools/2xep.lua looks like what I was looking for
  804. Fishbowler on a similar vein - I've wanted to do a browser extension for ages that'd work with XEPs to translate the examples into something in your own context. A lot of the work I do is testing, and I'm often translating from shakespeare to something more boring :)
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  807. Ge0rG nicoco: `make xep-0433.html` should do the trick and put the HTML render result into build/xep-0433.html
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  810. Zash nicoco, 2xep.lua is markdown → xep-xml, you want tools/xep2md.sh ?
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  812. Zash for html, just `make xep-xxxx.html && open build/xep-xxxx.html` ?
  813. nicoco Georg: great! so not used to compiling things that I did not even notice the Makefile.
  814. Zash Oh, Ge0rG already said
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  817. nicoco Zash: well, both would be great actually, I'd like to propose an update, but I guess xml->md->editing->xml will induce too many diffs. I'll try it anyway, I don't have the XML-brain yet so it's really tedious to write XML directly.
  818. nicoco thanks
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  820. mjk just do xml->json->editing->xml :trollface:
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  822. Zash `{"xep":"<xep><![CDATA[<html>....`
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  824. nicoco or xml->latex->xml maybe? jk I write everything in markdown since I discovered my lord and savior pandoc. all hail pandoc!
  825. singpolyma I doubt the xep format can be properly represented in markdown or latex since it has all kinds of custom stuff
  826. jonas’ nicoco, make html
  827. Zash pandoc is love, pandoc is life
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  830. singpolyma (such as entity references to other xeps)
  831. jonas’ Zash, `make build/xep-xxxx.html`, IIRC
  832. nicoco singpolyma: there is a pandoc filter written by Zash that seems to cover just that ^^
  833. singpolyma Ah. So custom markdown
  834. Zash The pandoc filter should handle basic structure, metadata, but not stuff like entity references
  835. nicoco maybe time to have som fun with pandoc and lua then!
  836. nicoco maybe time to have some fun with pandoc and lua then!
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  840. Zash That may reach the limits of what markdown can do
  841. Ge0rG jonas’: both paths work
  842. jonas’ fancy
  843. Ge0rG Zash: lua xep renderer in koreader when? :D
  844. Zash That's why I had xep→markdown, so I could pandoc it into .epub :)
  845. singpolyma Can't pandoc read HTML and make epub from that? Especially since epub is just HTML in a zip
  846. Ge0rG reminds me that the standard document format for RFCs still is US Letter.
  847. Zash Ge0rG, I thought they went markdown-on-github now?
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  849. Ge0rG Zash: did they? are they going to markdown all the existing RFCs, too?
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  851. Zash unlikely, but most new things look like https://github.com/mlswg/mls-federation
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  856. nicoco I actually like markdown for redacting stuff... is that a bad thing?
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  859. Ge0rG not at all, markdown is a nice trade-off for 90% of tech docs
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  861. Ge0rG if you have a dialect that supports tables and diagrams, you are probably at 95%
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  866. nicoco I wrote my phd thesis with markdown (+pandoc +some awful scripts to make it fit the latex template the uni wanted me to use). so I think it can cover anything 🙂
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  868. nicoco I wrote my phd thesis in markdown (+pandoc +some awful scripts to make it fit the latex template the uni wanted me to use). so I think it can cover anything 🙂
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  870. Ge0rG I wrote my phd in LaTeX.
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  872. Ge0rG nicoco: well, it depends what you wrote your phd about.
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  877. nicoco to me, it's just too much useless things markup things, be it latex or html. the promise of separating content from formatting doesn't hold. whereas with basic markup languages, you can actually focus on the content. but as usual, whatever works for whoever is fine 😉
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  880. nicoco to me, it's just too much useless markup things, be it latex or html. the promise of separating content from formatting doesn't hold. whereas with basic markup languages, you can actually focus on the content. but as usual, whatever works for whoever is fine 😉
  881. nicoco to me, it's just too much ~useless~ distracting markup things, be it latex or html. the promise of separating content from formatting doesn't hold. whereas with basic markup languages, you can actually focus on the content. but as usual, whatever works for whoever is fine 😉
  882. Zash What I've done is write early drafts in markdown, then turn to xep-xml for submission and future editing... if I ever got that far
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  890. Ge0rG yeah, I wouldn't do another document in TeX today, I'm too old for this shit
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  893. jonas’ hides the main.tex
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  899. flow likes LaTeX
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  902. flow that said, ietf's markdown to xml tooling is pretty good and I see many I-D being written that way (rfc4880bis for an recent example)
  903. flow I wonder if we couldn't do something similar for XEPs
  904. nicoco likes latex via a pandoc template
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  906. flow that is, keep the existing XML infrastructure and tooling
  907. flow but be able to feed it with something markdownish
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  909. jonas’ yes please
  910. jonas’ would also help the editor a lot
  911. jonas’ (but not as much as other things in the ~"Editor Tooling" label ;-))
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  913. flow And I'd really would love if XEPs had a meta layer with rationale, design considerations, and further secondary information. the layer wouldn't show by default, but if you ever wondered why something is designed the way it is, then you may be able to look it up
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  916. jonas’ isn't Design Considerations even a part of the template nowadays?
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  918. flow it is, but ignore that for now, it's misleading for my point :)
  919. flow essentially technical documentation consists of specifications (how you do things) and rationale/motoviation (why you do things)
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  922. flow if both things are immediatly present, then first-time implementors can be overwhelmed by the provided information
  923. jonas’ ah
  924. jonas’ yeah that makes sense kindof
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  926. flow so my idea is to have a "space" for secondary things that are not directly required to implement what is documented
  927. flow of course, this "space" should be within the document itself, it just should be rendered/presented differently (e.g., hidden, with a visible hint that something is hidden there, by default)
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  960. wurstsalat Guus, fixed Pàdé ;)
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  1003. mjk ftr, it never was anything Thai because \u is followed only by 4 digits :P (i.e., 00e0, not 00e0d)
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  1015. Ge0rG mjk: bummer!
  1016. Ge0rG mjk: bummer! thanks for pointing that out, I totally fell for it
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  1037. Alex another reminder here as well for our current board&council elections. When you are a member and have not voted yet then please take some time and do so. Thanks
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  1044. mjk Ge0rG: happens to the best of us :D
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  1366. emus This is the draft for the next release covering November 2022. https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/1209
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  1369. emus If you support, please put your nick, we would like name our contributors. But feel free to stay anonymous of course
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