XSF Discussion - 2022-12-15

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  128. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    > emus: > - I want to get away from always only hoping/waiting passively for volunteers > - I want to test as an opportunity > - I would offer compensation even if they would do it without 🙂 > - Prevent people randomly starting on their own solution, which ends up being refused or double work > - Reduce frustration > All of that because its an incident at our core business. I think its also a symptom for some general problems. I agree. I think its wise to think why we didnt have volunteers up until now and even why the editor position has long term uncertainty. And i would even add why we dont have more members applying. Saying that its not easy for people to volunteer does have a point. But i think we as an xmpp/xsf community dont make this any easier. Not try to point any fingers here because i dont think its a specific problem anyway.

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  131. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    And yeah the double work or refusal is a problem. Sure volunteering and randomly stepping up is nice. But not when its a bunch of people with different approaches on the same problem. (Talking about the tooling here)

  132. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Which to be honest i am still not sure what was decided if anything. The whole thing seemed convoluted.

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  137. L29Ah

    > Applications from prospective new members are accepted during the first two weeks of every quarter (i.e., the first two weeks of January, April, July, and October). lol

  138. L29Ah feels that not many people would want to join an organization that looks like a Nomic game

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  142. emus

    well, I hope people join organisations because they support what the organisation does

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  144. Ellenor Malik


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  147. Daniel

    > Which to be honest i am still not sure what was decided if anything. The whole thing seemed convoluted. MSavoritias (fae,ve): nothing was decided. They are just hoping that somebody volunteers. So if you volunteer I suggest you get started

  148. ralphm

    L29Ah: membership of the XSF is generally not required to do stuff in the XMPP community. Not for working on our standards, not for participating in discussions, and certainly not for writing code. There are a few roles in our standards process that require membership, plus a few to make the XSF able to function as a corporation. So for that we have processes to accept new members and there is nothing arcane about that, I think.

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  150. ralphm

    MSavoritias (fae,ve): as I wrote yesterday, nothing in stepping up has been random. The people involved, AFAIK, were either on the Infrastructure Team or on the Editor Team already.

  151. nicomuc

    ralphm: aren’t technical discussion on XEPs restricted to the members-only mailing list though?

  152. ralphm

    No of course not

  153. ralphm

    Standards JIG is open to everyone, including the mailing list

  154. ralphm

    Membership is only required to be on the Council

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  156. nicomuc

    Oh tech discussion is for standards@ and not members@ I guess then, my bad

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  158. ralphm

    No worries

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  169. jonas’

    singpolyma: > I think the main issue is that a person with no time doesn't get more time when you give them money unless you throw enough money (= make them earn a living)

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  171. Daniel

    I think we've been looking at this all wrong which let to the process being stuck. we've been looking for someone to make the editor task easier with a then somewhat implied second step to look for a new editor. It seems to be a little unclear what work exactly is needed to make the editor task easier and who signs off on that. Board apparently doesn’t want to do this (and that's fine) what we should do instead is simply look for a new editor (or editors); and _strongly suggest_ to them that they should automate their tasks. (I don’t see a reason to mandate automation) the editor - once elected - can then (but doesn’t have to) start working on automating task and/or specifically assign tasks to other volunteers. Only the editor knows which scripts will help

  172. jonas’

    Daniel: I think you are out of the loop

  173. jonas’

    there is an entire list of issues (user stories even!) which I collected and wrote

  174. jonas’

    and which will get us rid of 95% of the unnecessary manual work

  175. jonas’

    and if those were solved, you don't need to find a new editor

  176. jonas’

    my email did not say "I resign"; it said " I will resign if nothing changes"

  177. ralphm

    Also, there's no election process. Since Peter stepped down, there's an Editor work team, with a charter that includes how people get on the team.

  178. jonas’

    FTR: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Editor+Tooling%22

  179. ralphm


  180. jonas’

    I also mentioned elsewhere (though possibly not yet explicitly in public) that I'd be happy to steer the technical work and sign off on stuff

  181. jonas’

    (as I did with Guus' contribution for instance)

  182. ralphm

    Thanks, Jonas. I got that from our discussion yesterday, but maybe it wasn't clear for some.

  183. jonas’

    (I'm on GPRS speed because stupidity, otherwise I'd single out one of those issues to highlight the level of detail they have)

  184. jonas’

    (also, all hail XMPP and Conversations which works just fine on GPRS speed)

  185. Daniel

    > I also mentioned elsewhere (though possibly not yet explicitly in public) that I'd be happy to steer the technical work and sign off on stuff this + the fact that are willing to keep doing the editor work was indeed not clear to me

  186. ralphm

    So we now have MattJ, stpeter, and you that can coordinate how to move forward, right? Not sure what else we need to resolve or have a meeting on.

  187. MattJ


  188. MattJ

    And the coordination point was agreed to be the editor MUC

  189. ralphm


  190. MattJ

    During the meeting we had multiple people volunteer themselves for various things. I'm not sure what people expected to happen?

  191. ralphm

    So, I don't think saying that nothing was decided is not accurate or helpful

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  194. Daniel

    So for anyone who wants to write scripts the process is * check https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Editor+Tooling%22 * join xmpp:editor@muc.xmpp.org?join and talk to MattJ and jonas’ to get tasks assigned to you ?

  195. MattJ


  196. jonas’

    Daniel: that would work

  197. Daniel

    I don’t think this was communicated in this level of specificity

  198. Daniel

    but i'm glad we did now

  199. jonas’

    ok, yeah

  200. jonas’

    I think this was somewhat spread out over MUCs and we probably should've posted those to the list as they were written

  201. MattJ

    The only important part of that is "join the editor MUC and talk"

  202. MattJ

    And that has been said multiple times

  203. Daniel

    > The only important part of that is "join the editor MUC and talk" tbh I wasn’t even aware their is an editor muc

  204. Daniel

    > The only important part of that is "join the editor MUC and talk" tbh I wasn’t even aware there is an editor muc

  205. Daniel

    searching for editor@muc.xmpp.org in this room doesn’t yield too many recent results either... but doesn’t matter. I'm glad we cleared this up

  206. ralphm

    For reference https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Editor_team, linked from the Charter, too. Not saying should have known, so good to repeat that here.

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  214. Daniel

    emus, can you boost https://gultsch.social/@jssfr@floss.social/109513032862443946 - that's probably the best summary we have (short of mentioning the editor muc as a discussion venue)

  215. Daniel

    didn’t mean to link that via my home instance... but you get what I was trying to reference

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  235. jonas’

    https://floss.social/@jssfr/109513032749707395 there

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  237. Guus

    <automate all things meme> https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1253

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  239. Guus

    lightly tested. Can probably be improved. Is better than nothing.

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  332. Guus


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  334. jonas’

    more code, more automation, surprise of amusement :)

  335. jonas’

    more code, more automation, amusement and happiness

  336. Guus

    ah, I interpret that as 'shock'. Wondered if you found an obvious issue :)

  337. Zash

    What's that, words carry more meaning than smileys?! 😯️

  338. jonas’

    Guus, it was shock, shock that something happens :D

  339. jonas’

    positive shock

  340. Guus

    more code > more talk of doing code

  341. ralphm

    Guus: for sure

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  343. Guus

    That said, this is just a minor improvement. I primarily intend it to trigger more minor improvements.

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  346. Zash

    Cascading Resonance of Improvements Multiplying Evermore?

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  348. jonas’

    Guus, it is actually a major improvement from my perspective

  349. jonas’

    I was not aware of a ready-made action to detect changed files

  350. Guus

    jonas’: I have no prior knowledge. I have weilded the Google.

  351. Guus

    Zash: certainly.

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  583. Zash

    Will there be some common hotel booking? (poke ralphm maybe)

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  592. Zash

    Train tickets yeeeaaaaaaah!

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  604. emus

    XSF Announcement We are interested for volunteers to support automation of our tooling to manage the standard documents and allow a more efficient processing of editorial work! Overview: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Editor+Tooling%22 Contact: editor@muc.xmpp.org Reach out if you are interested or have questions! This is based on: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board-Meeting-2022-12-14 Spread the word: https://fosstodon.org/@xmpp/109519363570575768 https://twitter.com/xmpp/status/1603473596105560079

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  609. emus

    And a side note on my discussion. I was investigating a bit what others do when it comes to funding. "Hiring" seems to be the fewest solution others come to. I understood it more as contracting and giving grants, which has less overhead I assume. KDE is quite advanced here I think. They give a good overview of advantages and disadvantages of each process they do. Akademy 2021 - Make a living in KDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzpoTuHuciE

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  611. emus


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  618. deimos

    In my experience, targeted work needs a contractor to design/implement, and then hand off to someone to maintain it.

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  623. Daniel

    I reckon the Thon EU will become the 'official' summit hotel again. Would anyone else be interested in a mid-range option?

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  627. emus

    Dunno yet, I will go, but I have to pay everything myself

  628. Zash

    I'm mostly interested in someone with a credit card doing the booking, as I don't have one of those and can't book hotels.

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  630. emus

    I can support here. I assume you could transfer to me via IBAN?

  631. Daniel

    > Dunno yet, I will go, but I have to pay everything myself Yes so do I. For me it's a business expense but I still have to pay 60-70% of it

  632. emus

    Ah interesting, I thought you could put 100% off

  633. Kev

    Does the Thon still require you to take a photo of your card, print it, photocopy it, sketch a copy by hand, fax the result and then snail-mail that? :)

  634. emus


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  637. Andrzej

    Kev, I do not remeber having to do that any time I was there for the summit or FOSDEM

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  640. Kev

    I don't remember what it was, but I remember there being some bizarrely arcane system.

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  643. Daniel

    I think you can just book that online nowadays...

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  645. Kev

    Ah, yes, I've checked what it was. You had to fill out a PDF form with your credit card number on (as well as everything else), and then email it to them.

  646. Andrzej

    I think that when they were giving discount then there was something bizare

  647. Kev

    That was 2018 though, looks like by 2019 they did onlineness.

  648. Zash

    do we have guesstimates on how many will attend summit?

  649. Zash

    emus, maybe do a social media poll? :)

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  655. emus

    Zash, I think we should create a wiki page as we did for sprints, right? CC: ralphm

  656. emus

    Anyone wants to volunteer? 😬️

  657. Daniel

    We should probably wait for the location to be confirmed

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  659. emus

    And I would like to know if the XMPP summit is also a thing Daniel - yes, that

  660. Zash

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_25 ?

  661. Daniel

    With covid and everything I wouldn't take the location for granted and finding a replacement wouldn't be entirely trivial

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  665. Daniel

    But if we can secure a location I'm reasonably confident it'll happen. Enough people have signaled interest

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  771. ralphm

    As I mentioned yesterday in the Board meeting, emus, I am working on the location

  772. ralphm

    Daniel: right, my contact said there might be some restrictions, but not necessarily because of Covid.

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  774. ralphm

    As for alternatives, we've used hotel conference rooms before.

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  790. singpolyma

    Last time I was at summit there was also remote participation. Is that likely? I guess it depends on location

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  798. ralphm

    We'll try our best to accommodate that.

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