XSF Discussion - 2023-02-08

  1. gooya has left

  2. Chad has left

  3. marmarper has joined

  4. Chad has joined

  5. adiaholic has left

  6. stpeter has left

  7. stpeter has joined

  8. adiaholic has joined

  9. Kev has joined

  10. Wojtek has left

  11. no_1729 has joined

  12. david has joined

  13. david has left

  14. Maranda[x] has left

  15. marmarper has left

  16. restive_monk has left

  17. snow has left

  18. wurstsalat has left

  19. stpeter has left

  20. restive_monk has joined

  21. resoli has left

  22. eevvoor has left

  23. restive_monk has left

  24. djorz has left

  25. kurisu has left

  26. neshtaxmpp has left

  27. neshtaxmpp has joined

  28. restive_monk has joined

  29. chipmnk has left

  30. Vaulor has left

  31. neshtaxmpp has left

  32. neshtaxmpp has joined

  33. marc0s has left

  34. marc0s has joined

  35. carlos has left

  36. carlos has joined

  37. intosi has left

  38. ralphm has left

  39. lskdjf has left

  40. Axel has left

  41. jcbrand has left

  42. Wojtek has joined

  43. carlos has left

  44. carlos has joined

  45. karoshi has joined

  46. intosi has joined

  47. atomicwatch has left

  48. stp has joined

  49. stp has left

  50. Wojtek has left

  51. atomicwatch has joined

  52. raucao has left

  53. intosi has left

  54. intosi has joined

  55. intosi has left

  56. intosi has joined

  57. raucao has joined

  58. intosi has left

  59. intosi has joined

  60. andrey.g has left

  61. karoshi has left

  62. brunrobe has left

  63. KitKat::new() has left

  64. Mjolnir Archon has left

  65. Maranda has left

  66. catchy has joined

  67. snow has joined

  68. raucao has left

  69. raucao has joined

  70. bhavy has joined

  71. tbm16 has joined

  72. arcxi has left

  73. arcxi has joined

  74. atomicwatch has left

  75. Yagiza has joined

  76. arcxi has left

  77. atomicwatch has joined

  78. antranigv has left

  79. Trung has joined

  80. Kev has left

  81. bhavy has left

  82. intosi has left

  83. intosi has joined

  84. snow has left

  85. Seve has joined

  86. Patiga has left

  87. Rebeld has left

  88. marmarper has joined

  89. intosi has left

  90. flow has left

  91. intosi has joined

  92. no_1729 has left

  93. flow has joined

  94. mirux has joined

  95. atomicwatch has left

  96. no_1729 has joined

  97. marmarper has left

  98. arcxi has joined

  99. Seve has left

  100. Seve has joined

  101. bhavy has joined

  102. intosi has left

  103. intosi has joined

  104. atomicwatch has joined

  105. rubi has left

  106. rubi has joined

  107. rubi has left

  108. Menel has joined

  109. rubi has joined

  110. rubi has left

  111. Vaulor has joined

  112. rubi has joined

  113. Menel has left

  114. atomicwatch has left

  115. Menel has joined

  116. tbm16 has left

  117. Tobi has joined

  118. Tobi has left

  119. Tobi has joined

  120. Tobias has joined

  121. Skull Fucker has left

  122. rubi has left

  123. Skull Fucker has joined

  124. no_1729 has left

  125. atomicwatch has joined

  126. Yagiza has left

  127. arcxi has left

  128. emus has joined

  129. Menel has left

  130. no_1729 has joined

  131. Menel has joined

  132. Kev has joined

  133. kurisu has joined

  134. Vaulor has left

  135. neox has joined

  136. Axel has joined

  137. intosi has left

  138. intosi has joined

  139. arcxi has joined

  140. Vaulor has joined

  141. Kev has left

  142. marc0s has left

  143. marc0s has joined

  144. marmarper has joined

  145. Tobias has left

  146. Tobias has joined

  147. Tobias has left

  148. Tobias has joined

  149. atomicwatch has left

  150. Axel Reimer has joined

  151. Axel Reimer has left

  152. intosi has left

  153. intosi has joined

  154. gooya has joined

  155. Axel Reimer has joined

  156. gooya has left

  157. gooya has joined

  158. atomicwatch has joined

  159. resoli has joined

  160. projjalm has joined

  161. Menel has left

  162. marmarper has left

  163. no_1729 has left

  164. Mario Sabatino has joined

  165. wurstsalat has joined

  166. Menel has joined

  167. massivebox has left

  168. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has joined

  169. resoli has left

  170. no_1729 has joined

  171. massivebox has joined

  172. nicoco has joined

  173. intosi has left

  174. intosi has joined

  175. resoli has joined

  176. *IM* has joined

  177. asterix has left

  178. asterix has joined

  179. jcbrand has joined

  180. emus

    > Guus: > 2023-02-07 08:04 (GMT+01:00) > If (I'm not saying it is) we deem it important for XMPP to be well represented, maybe the XSF can consider funding people (eg: council and board members) to attend meetings like these. +1

  181. Mjolnir Archon has joined

  182. KitKat::new() has joined

  183. brunrobe has joined

  184. Maranda has joined

  185. eevvoor has joined

  186. marc0s has left

  187. marc0s has joined

  188. Skull Fucker has left

  189. emus

    > MattJ: > 2023-02-07 08:21 (GMT+01:00) > I'm not saying there isn't more we can do (there always will be), but it's not like we're doing nothing I used to claim we should move from the passive corner to the active one

  190. Skull Fucker has joined

  191. emus

    in general, no saying folks are not invsting time. But for me it feels often limited to resources

  192. BASSGOD has joined

  193. BASSGOD has left

  194. Maxence has joined

  195. chipmnk has joined

  196. emus

    Daniel: I think it will be moved by one week

  197. Daniel

    emus: yes thank you. I saw the emails

  198. emus

    Daniel: ok

  199. KitKat::new() has left

  200. brunrobe has left

  201. Mjolnir Archon has left

  202. Maranda has left

  203. djorz has joined

  204. BASSGOD has joined

  205. marc0s has left

  206. marc0s has joined

  207. marc0s has left

  208. marc0s has joined

  209. Titi has joined

  210. sonny has left

  211. resoli has left

  212. marmarper has joined

  213. sonny has joined

  214. no_1729 has left

  215. Seve has left

  216. Seve has joined

  217. Yagiza has joined

  218. LNJ has joined

  219. stp has joined

  220. arcxi has left

  221. arcxi has joined

  222. paul has joined

  223. no_1729 has joined

  224. djorz has left

  225. Yagiza has left

  226. Patiga has joined

  227. goffi has joined

  228. Yagiza has joined

  229. sonny has left

  230. projjalm has left

  231. Andrzej has joined

  232. Kev has joined

  233. sonny has joined

  234. karoshi has joined

  235. jcbrand has left

  236. jcbrand has joined

  237. root has left

  238. flow

    I always assumed that the XSF not doing more which money is that there is no-one really taking care of financial stuff in the XSF (besides the absolute minimum that is required to keep the org going). has that changed or is my assumption wrong?

  239. flow

    I always assumed that the XSF not doing more which money is because there is no-one really taking care of financial stuff in the XSF (besides the absolute minimum that is required to keep the org going). has that changed or is my assumption wrong?

  240. Guus

    My assumption is that these are two sides of the same coin.

  241. jonas’

    I think our treasurer expressed quite explicitly that they're happy in using the money if we have good ideas how

  242. jonas’

    (which are acceptable under the regulations the XSF is under)

  243. rubi has joined

  244. marmarper has left

  245. Kev has left

  246. Yagiza has left

  247. SteveF has joined

  248. MattJ

    Yeah, we don't need much money if we don't spend it. If people have concrete proposals (i.e. including amounts) then we can decide if that's something we want to allocate resources for. The only such proposal in my memory in recent years was paying someone to do social media and community management stuff, and that did not get approval.

  249. Andrzej has left

  250. lskdjf has joined

  251. Yagiza has joined

  252. Kev has joined

  253. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    thats too bad

  254. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    xmpp could use more outreach

  255. Daniel

    MattJ: did the XSF pay for you to go to IETF London? I'm honestly asking because I don't know. If they did I think this should have been communicated more clearly (as a good thing)

  256. Guus

    MattJ: Oh, I didn't know that. Do you remember what were the reasonings for both the ask, as for the disapproval?

  257. jonas’

    Daniel, I got reimbursement for the remote IETF participation fwiw

  258. Kev has left

  259. Daniel

    jonas’: OK good to know. I know that it was discussed. But I wasn't sure if it had actually happened

  260. Daniel

    Plus the XSF paid for the conference room for summit (although I'm also a bit confused on how and when that actually got decided)

  261. Daniel

    So it's not like the XSF never pays for anything

  262. rubi has left

  263. Daniel

    If we want to attract sponsors in the future we should communicate more openly on what we spend our money

  264. mirux has left

  265. Guus

    I think that better communication would be a good thing, but I don't think it'd matter much to potential sponsors. Most of them likely do not care, as long as we're not spending it on things like sponsoring the Taliban.

  266. flow

    I fondly remember the days when there were regular blog posts about XSF income and expenses

  267. Andrzej has joined

  268. Trung has left

  269. Trung has joined

  270. rubi has joined

  271. rubi has left

  272. Andrzej has left

  273. mirux has joined

  274. stp has left

  275. Guus

    any blog posts, really. The newsletter is most excellent, but it would be nice if that was not the lion share of the blog. I fully realize that I myself can help fix that by submitting blog post content...

  276. robertooo has joined

  277. Daniel

    I think emus and team have been doing a very good job wrt PR lately.

  278. rubi has joined

  279. sjm has left

  280. Daniel

    it's just the income+expenses that are missing and i don’t think that's the comm teams fault

  281. Guus

    I in no way want to suggest otherwise.

  282. sjm has joined

  283. neshtaxmpp has left

  284. neshtaxmpp has joined

  285. Kev has joined

  286. Daniel

    plus before Covid we had a sprint budget that I think we got to used once before the pandemic ruined everything

  287. Guus

    I don't agree that this is all that's missing. We used to do a lot more with the blog - post about elections, board goals, etc.

  288. Trung has left

  289. Trung has joined

  290. Guus

    I'm a big fan of those sprints!

  291. rubi has left

  292. Andrzej has joined

  293. Andrzej has left

  294. wurstsalat

    ah, board goals :) https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/564

  295. wurstsalat

    > I'm a big fan of those sprints! yes!

  296. SteveF has left

  297. MattJ

    Daniel: it was agreed that the XSF would fund my IETF attendance, yes. Have I actually submitted the expenses yet? No... 😅

  298. Andrzej has joined

  299. MattJ

    I am hoping the XSF will also cover at least some of the cost of the printing I did for FOSDEM

  300. MattJ

    SCAM has a budget, but it was obviously exceeded this year due to the conference room

  301. Vaulor has left

  302. Vaulor has joined

  303. Andrzej has left

  304. Yagiza has left

  305. Guus

    Assuming that the printing was all XSF-related and printing costs were within reasonable ranges (conforming to regular prices), I'd hope that you'd be 100% reimbursed.

  306. Daniel

    when the scam budget was allocated we did not account having to pay for a the venues. the scam budget was/is for printing and maybe some snacks

  307. Vaulor has left

  308. MattJ


  309. Daniel

    so i would hope that the conference room either doesn’t come out of the scam budget or the scam budget will get raised significantly

  310. Guus

    iirc the SCAM budget was 1000 euro / year. I truly have no idea what a conference room costs, but was it over that?

  311. Daniel

    a little over 2k

  312. Guus


  313. MattJ

    The budget IIRC was set in USD, and the conference room was 2k EUR

  314. Guus

    oh, you are probably right.

  315. Seve has left

  316. intosi

    At least we got a lot of entertainment out of the coffee machine and the proprietary app required for connecting to the projector.

  317. MattJ

    I never did get my hot chocolate

  318. Zash

    Demand a refund!

  319. intosi

    I think the machine rejected the notion of it also having to deal with chocolate.

  320. Daniel

    I actually think it would make sense to give summit it's own budget. because for normal sprints I think it is reasonable to have he sprint host organize some sort of venue. while summit needs it's own 'proper' venue

  321. MattJ

    Guus [09:25]: > Assuming that the printing was all XSF-related and printing costs were within reasonable ranges (conforming to regular prices), I'd hope that you'd be 100% reimbursed. Some are clearly XSF (newsletter, etc.), but what about project-specific materials?

  322. Seve has joined

  323. Daniel

    I actually think it would make sense to give summit it's own budget. because for normal sprints I think it is reasonable to have the sprint host organize some sort of venue. while summit needs it's own 'proper' venue

  324. stp has joined

  325. Vaulor has joined

  326. marc0s has left

  327. marc0s has joined

  328. Guus

    MattJ: I'm not sure if there's precedent for project-specific materials. To me, it would be not out of the question to reimburse for that, but maybe there's an argument to be had there. As for XSF-specific stuff, that's a no-brainer to me: 100% reimbursement.

  329. Yagiza has joined

  330. Daniel

    I’m sure the XSF benefited from the fact that there was marketing material at the XSF booth even if some of it was project specific.

  331. Daniel

    so unless you want to get reimbursted for the life size plush snikket you had made I'd say it's probably fine

  332. jonas’

    excuse me what there was a plush

  333. MattJ

    No 😂

  334. chipmnk has left

  335. Guus

    From what I could find from what I asked to be reimbursed and received from the XSF in the past, that excluded project-specific stuff, but did include things like the XMPP-logo sticker, the XMPP flags, taxis to/from the XSF dinner and some lunches at the summit.

  336. chipmnk has joined

  337. Guus

    I'm a bit ambivalent on reimbursement for project-specific stuff. Where do we draw a clear line?

  338. Guus

    or: do we offer something like this to all members / member projects?

  339. Daniel

    I wasn’t at fosdem so I don’t know what MattJ is refering to. but what i meant to say that the 'newsletter' he made for example is fine

  340. Daniel

    the 10ft banner "snikket is awesome" maybe not

  341. Guus

    generic stuff is fine to me. But Prosody stickers? hmm.

  342. MattJ

    Yes, the newsletter, client comparison chart, some leaflets introducing/explaining XMPP

  343. Guus

    How do you see those as 'project-specific' ?

  344. MattJ

    Alongside that I printed materials for Movim, Snikket and Cheogram

  345. Guus

    ah. :)

  346. antranigv has joined

  347. antranigv has left

  348. MattJ

    Also some stuff from freie-messenger.de

  349. rubi has joined

  350. Vaulor has left

  351. Vaulor has joined

  352. SteveF has joined

  353. restive_monk has left

  354. restive_monk has joined

  355. Guus

    oh, I didn't realize that you printed project-specific stuff for many projects.

  356. Guus

    Did you volunteer that, or did those projects ask you? If the latter, maybe look at them first, for reimbursement?

  357. Guus

    Otherwise, I'd personally be more comfortable not getting this from the XSF (especially since this is an after-the-facts kind of thing). I would be willing to split the bill with you personally though, as bottom line, this helped the community.

  358. MattJ

    So the background is that last year^Wtime, I printed some Snikket leaflets and brought them with me

  359. MattJ

    There was almost nothing else at the stand

  360. MattJ

    This year I didn't want that to happen, so I made some generic XMPP stuff, and I told folk that if they sent me materials I would get them printed at the same time when I went to the print shop

  361. Guus

    Thank you.

  362. jonas’

    I'm with Guus, basically, including the "splitting the bill" part, the more the merrier.

  363. MattJ

    I'm happy with the results, we had a range of materials available and it was significantly easier to explain XMPP and how it's an ecosystem of software and services

  364. jonas’

    but I think it would also be good if board had a discussion how this can be improved for the next event; I think having materials there is a good thing™ and giving projects implementing XSF standards an opportunity to present themselves with a small budget supported by the XSF to improve the XSF stand, seems sensible.

  365. jonas’

    but I get that a post-fact thing may be a bit irritating to onlookers

  366. MattJ

    If I absolutely needed to know the XSF would cover the expenses I would have sought budget approval in advance, or just not done it, but TBH it's fine either way, I don't regret doing it and there wasn't a lot of time to spend discussion specifics

  367. MattJ

    If I absolutely needed to know the XSF would cover the expenses I would have sought budget approval in advance, or just not done it, but TBH it's fine either way, I don't regret doing it and there wasn't a lot of time to spend discussing specifics

  368. jgart has left

  369. antranigv has joined

  370. MattJ

    In my mind when I planned it, there was the SCAM budget. But with the surprise last-minute expense of the conference room I understand that this year was a little different to usual with regards to cost.

  371. govanify has left

  372. govanify has joined

  373. MattJ

    Oh, and I also bought the leaflet holders, which are now packed in the XSF's FOSDEM boxes

  374. KitKat::new() has joined

  375. MattJ

    That was because the year *before* 2020 we'd actually had quite limited space on the stand, with too many materials and demos taking up space on one table

  376. Guus

    Again, thank you. I definitely want you to be reimbursed, as I admire what you did and think it added a lot of value. I'd just prefer to not have the project-specific stuff be reimbursed through the XSF - but I'll help you cover those costs. That's maybe a bit more of a hassle with splitting bills, but will still get you what I hope you'll find fairly reimbursed.

  377. MattJ

    Nah, I don't mind, we can call it a donation to the ecosystem :)

  378. MattJ

    I don't see a clear way for the XSF to start funding project specific stuff without it becoming a minefield (wait until Isode want stuff printed... :) )

  379. jonas’

    literal minefield, I see.

  380. MattJ


  381. MattJ

    Just an example, that it's not only open-source projects in the ecosystem

  382. Guus

    Well, we could device some sort of 'budget-for-marketing-for-member-projects' scheme - that could be fair-ish, and beneficial to in particular the smaller projects.

  383. Kev

    In fact, I think that most of the XSF's money has come from non-OSS projects (or freemium OSS projects).

  384. Guus

    but lets get that in place _before_ spending the money :)

  385. jonas’

    if it's just a few bucks for flyers and those are at the XSF stand, and are positive (i.e. no degarotary statements about competitors or so), I think I wouldn't have an issue with that.

  386. MattJ

    Kev, and the people providing that money wanted it to support other non-OSS/freemium projects? :)

  387. Kev

    > , and the people providing that money wanted it to support other non-OSS/freemium projects? :) Oh, I doubt it. Just reminding folks.

  388. Kev

    Or, well, not *only* such projects.

  389. Kev

    A rising tide, all boats, floating, etc.

  390. marmarper has joined

  391. praveen has joined

  392. sonny has left

  393. KitKat::new() has left

  394. Guus

    Is Kev going nautical on us?

  395. sonny has joined

  396. intosi


  397. root has joined

  398. Steve Kille has left

  399. marmarper has left

  400. rubi has left

  401. rubi has joined

  402. Steve Kille has joined

  403. jgart has joined

  404. Trung has left

  405. Trung has joined

  406. Trung has left

  407. Trung has joined

  408. Kev

    I'm not naughty, I'm a good boy.

  409. Guus

    I'm resisting an urge to comment.

  410. Guus

    let's just say that I think a blue/white striped shirt would look good on intosi.

  411. jgart has left

  412. intosi


  413. lovetox has left

  414. ralphm has joined

  415. Dele Olajide has joined

  416. restive_monk has left

  417. ralphm

    The costs for FOSDEM/Summit generally include the van, taxis, and materials for the booth/lounge. That's what we allocated the SCAM budget for (among other events, of course). The costs for the venue were indeed new, and as we had a majority of board members in agreement that we should do that, knowing the costs, I went ahead. I don't consider it part of the SCAM budget. Some details were shared on the board mailing list, and Peter also requested to send in the invoices after event (as usual). So yes we didn't have an explicit board meeting on this, but I will definitely include it in our next meeting.

  418. ralphm

    Everything about organizing this was not very well done, and I'm sure we'll do better next year.

  419. Zash

    Understandable, given the time since last time :)

  420. ralphm

    As for funding things in general and the lack of attempts to get sponsors, is basically because not much happened that required additional funds. I think this will change dramatically this year.

  421. restive_monk has joined

  422. neshtaxmpp has left

  423. neshtaxmpp has joined

  424. rubi has left

  425. neshtaxmpp has left

  426. neshtaxmpp has joined

  427. neshtaxmpp has left

  428. neshtaxmpp has joined

  429. Vaulor has left

  430. rubi has joined

  431. Maxence has left

  432. Maxence has joined

  433. Half-Shot has left

  434. Matthew has left

  435. uhoreg has left

  436. homebeach has left

  437. lovetox has joined

  438. Half-Shot has joined

  439. Matthew has joined

  440. homebeach has joined

  441. uhoreg has joined

  442. no_1729 has left

  443. Menel has left

  444. jgart has joined

  445. Menel has joined

  446. Vaulor has joined

  447. neshtaxmpp has left

  448. neshtaxmpp has joined

  449. neshtaxmpp has left

  450. marc0s has left

  451. marc0s has joined

  452. antranigv has left

  453. antranigv has joined

  454. antranigv has left

  455. neshtaxmpp has joined

  456. marc0s has left

  457. marc0s has joined

  458. antranigv has joined

  459. intosi has left

  460. intosi has joined

  461. rubi has left

  462. rubi has joined

  463. Vaulor has left

  464. gooya has left

  465. gooya has joined

  466. Guus

    In Stream Management, what is the expected behavior when a peer sends a 'h' value that is _lower_ than the value that it sent previously?

  467. Vaulor has joined

  468. praveen has left

  469. Zash

    fatal stream error, disconnect

  470. Maranda[x] has joined

  471. intosi

    Technically there's rollover, but that would mean the server is acking 2**32-small_n stanzas, which should also lead to that stream error.

  472. Guus


  473. Guus

    I hadn't thought of that

  474. flow

    if a stream mangement participant acks more stanzas that where send then this should lead to a stream error

  475. flow

    because either the acking participant counted wrong, or the participant that send the stanzas

  476. Zash

    There's a bug, it should be reported and fixed.

  477. flow

    you could potentially implement a robost mode that simply deactivates/ignores further sm related actions, but that is rarely useful

  478. flow

    you could potentially implement a robust mode that simply deactivates/ignores further sm related actions, but that is rarely useful

  479. Zash

    ignore the bug? then it'll never be fixed

  480. Zash

    and others will adopt the same bug!

  481. flow

    Zash, aggreed

  482. marmarper has joined

  483. intosi

    I think the words in 6 Error Handling are clear that the right behaviour is to close the stream.

  484. flow

    Zash, agreed

  485. flow

    pfff, words in specs

  486. Guus

    The peer acks not more, but less stanzas in my question

  487. Trung has left

  488. flow

    but yes, we are all on the same page that a stream error is the right thing to do™

  489. Guus

    Less than it acked earlier

  490. intosi

    No, it acks more, because rollover.

  491. flow

    Guus, what intosi said

  492. Guus


  493. sonny has left

  494. flow

    you can not unack stanzas, the ack counter is only ever going forward, with the technicnal limitation that its a uint32 with defined overflow semantics

  495. intosi

    So if your rollover logic is working, the stream error should follow naturally.

  496. Zash

    Is anyone testing rollover? :)

  497. intosi

    Zash: we are :).

  498. flow

    testing? dunno, but IIRC smack has code for it

  499. Trung has joined

  500. Guus

    We apparently have broken rollover code, because it did not catch this

  501. Zash

    I fear we might not have rollover handling at all 😱️

  502. no_1729 has joined

  503. flow

    dos vector detected

  504. Zash

    it would take DoS levels of stanzas to reach it anyway, right? 🤷️

  505. marmarper has left

  506. flow

    I didn't say "fast dos vector detected" :)

  507. intosi

    Or very long lived connections that keep resuming indefinitely. Reaching 2**32 stanzas will take a while though ;-).

  508. intosi

    connections -> sessions.

  509. Zash

    I'd expect either you get a stream error, or it continues until around 2⁵³ and experience Weirdness, or wrap around at 2⁶⁴. Mmmmm number types, so much fun.

  510. sonny has joined

  511. Zash

    Hm, are there error conditions for mis-count bugs?

  512. Zash

    We use `undefined-condition` with some text

  513. intosi

    Assuming your peer doesn't cut you off because you didn't send a u32.

  514. intosi

    Example 16 has an error for that.

  515. intosi

    (it's defined in the text right above it.)

  516. Zash

    Oh when did `handled-count-too-high` appear?

  517. no_1729 has left

  518. Rebeld has joined

  519. intosi

    Didn't check, but "recent".

  520. intosi

    Guus committed that in 2018.

  521. moparisthebest

    > The budget IIRC was set in USD, and the conference room was 2k EUR Luckily that's the same these days lol

  522. paul has left

  523. Mario Sabatino has left

  524. Andrzej has joined

  525. Mario Sabatino has joined

  526. Andrzej has left

  527. Andrzej has joined

  528. xnamed has left

  529. xnamed has joined

  530. rubi has left

  531. rubi has joined

  532. paul has joined

  533. sjm has left

  534. Vaulor has left

  535. resoli has joined

  536. Andrzej has left

  537. rubi has left

  538. rubi has joined

  539. rubi has left

  540. rubi has joined

  541. SteveF has left

  542. Andrzej has joined

  543. Vidak has left

  544. Vaulor has joined

  545. marmarper has joined

  546. no_1729 has joined

  547. Yagiza has left

  548. Guus

    Exchange rates are well on their way to be back to the old levels, I noticed when I last did my invoicing.

  549. marmarper has left

  550. Andrzej has left

  551. Daniel

    Guus: do you invoice in your customers currency?

  552. Zash cries in SEK

  553. no_1729 has left

  554. arcxi has left

  555. paul has left

  556. adiaholic has left

  557. Guus

    Daniel: only for (some) Americans. Some stereotypes aren't pulled out of thin air...

  558. jonas’

    *US Americans, I assume

  559. Guus

    Oh yes.

  560. pep.

    Dunno if it's been seen, I'll ask again. There are people in Asia around here right? Even if not an XSF member. That can be sent to an IETF meeting in Japan. It'd only be fair that the XSF makes an effort to encourage local people to go I feel, instead or in addition to volunteers from other places.

  561. Guus

    For some reason, the larger that the organisation is, the _less_ likely that they're aware that something exists outside of the USA.

  562. SteveF has joined

  563. jonas’

    Guus, is that a reflection of your customers, or a reply to pep.?

  564. Guus

    No argument here, pep.

  565. Guus

    a reflection of dealing with _some_ of my US-based customers.

  566. Daniel

    pep.: I generally agree with you. For IETF though I feel like this should be somebody that is rather close to the XSF

  567. Guus

    I've had large orgs sent me a check. My local bank was amazed. :)

  568. Guus

    (also, home-made cookies. I did not forward those to my local bank though)

  569. sjm has joined

  570. Zash cries in invoicing system that could mail invoices XOR send EUR invoices

  571. Daniel

    Like for normal conferences to staff booths or give talks we shouldn't fly someone to the other side of the world

  572. SteveF has left

  573. Daniel

    Not just because money but also because of that thing called climate change

  574. jonas’


  575. pep.

    Daniel, I don't know. I think that would also be best, but I think there needs some kind of bootstrapping happening. Something something chicken/egg

  576. jonas’

    bootstrapping by throwing someone into an IETF meeting sounds harsh

  577. pep.


  578. jonas’

    I've attended the MIMI session remotely and it was pretty arcane to me

  579. arcxi has joined

  580. jonas’

    and I *am* close to the XSF, or at least I'd think I'm above the median

  581. pep.

    And yeah, preferring local people for that thing called climate something

  582. Guus

    Zash: my invoicing system is a set of text files, Libreoffice to generate a PDF, and email. Takes me about 1.5 hours/month. I do not see automation pay for itself there.

  583. Daniel

    We should find ways to encourage sprints and/or conference participation outside Europe. But I feel like IETF is the worst place to do that

  584. pep.

    I agree with sprints.

  585. pep.

    I don't know re IETF. I'm not going to die on this hill but I think it's important that we at least make an effort in this direction. And if it's not (yet?) possible then fine

  586. jonas’

    someone™ could send a mail to members@

  587. no_1729 has joined

  588. pep.

    (not me, I'm not in there anymore :p)

  589. Half-Shot has left

  590. uhoreg has left

  591. Matthew has left

  592. homebeach has left

  593. Half-Shot has joined

  594. Matthew has joined

  595. homebeach has joined

  596. uhoreg has joined

  597. adiaholic has joined

  598. pep.

    I may have asked already, does anybody handle see-other-host?

  599. pep.

    Or gone, with a pointer to some other place

  600. jonas’

    I know that see-other-host is used by tigase clustering

  601. paul has joined

  602. marc0s has left

  603. marc0s has joined

  604. marmarper has joined

  605. singpolyma has left

  606. paul has left

  607. no_1729 has left

  608. inky has left

  609. paul has joined

  610. singpolyma has joined

  611. Maranda[x] has left

  612. Maxence has left

  613. Maxence has joined

  614. Dele Olajide has left

  615. arcxi has left

  616. Patiga has left

  617. marmarper has left

  618. projjalm has joined

  619. resoli has left

  620. resoli has joined

  621. Yagiza has joined

  622. Andrzej has joined

  623. inky has joined

  624. inky has left

  625. inky has joined

  626. arcxi has joined

  627. Maxence has left

  628. Maxence has joined

  629. Andrzej

    yes, Tigase is using see-other-host and our software is using it

  630. Andrzej

    also gone is used to communicate that cluster node is being shutdown

  631. pep.

    I would kind of see more of these redirects supported in clients. I should open issues here and there

  632. jonas’

    just be careful to not introduce security issues with those…

  633. singpolyma has left

  634. pep.

    Well they're in the protocol already..

  635. jonas’

    e.g. following a <see-other-host/> before TLS is probably a bad idea

  636. pep.


  637. jonas’

    unless you enforce the same certificate name bindings on the destination as you would've on the source

  638. pep.

    Or is it. You can still check the certificate on the dest

  639. pep.


  640. jonas’

    but a naive implementation wouldn't do that as you have to carry the information that you came from a redirect and which redirect you came from along

  641. Mikaela has left

  642. Andrzej has left

  643. no_1729 has joined

  644. jgart has left

  645. Maxence has left

  646. Maxence has joined

  647. singpolyma has joined

  648. Patiga has joined

  649. Andrzej has joined

  650. jgart has joined

  651. Alex has left

  652. Alex has joined

  653. Andrzej has left

  654. SteveF has joined

  655. SteveF has left

  656. SteveF has joined

  657. jgart has left

  658. Andrzej has joined

  659. Andrzej has left

  660. neshtaxmpp has left

  661. neshtaxmpp has joined

  662. resoli has left

  663. resoli has joined

  664. intosi has left

  665. intosi has joined

  666. marmarper has joined

  667. Half-Shot has left

  668. uhoreg has left

  669. Matthew has left

  670. homebeach has left

  671. Half-Shot has joined

  672. Matthew has joined

  673. homebeach has joined

  674. uhoreg has joined

  675. Andrzej has joined

  676. Andrzej has left

  677. Daniel has left

  678. Daniel has joined

  679. djorz has joined

  680. marc0s has left

  681. uhoreg has left

  682. Half-Shot has left

  683. Matthew has left

  684. homebeach has left

  685. Half-Shot has joined

  686. Matthew has joined

  687. homebeach has joined

  688. uhoreg has joined

  689. marc0s has joined

  690. Ingolf has left

  691. Ingolf has joined

  692. intosi has left

  693. intosi has joined

  694. singpolyma has left

  695. resoli has left

  696. singpolyma has joined

  697. marmarper has left

  698. Maranda[x] has joined

  699. Wojtek has joined

  700. stp has left

  701. Menel has left

  702. Menel has joined

  703. praveen has joined

  704. Ingolf has left

  705. Ingolf has joined

  706. Seve has left

  707. marc0s has left

  708. marc0s has joined

  709. Seve has joined

  710. Wojtek has left

  711. asterix has left

  712. asterix has joined

  713. Wojtek has joined

  714. jgart has joined

  715. MattJ

    MIX-capable clients? Siskin and an old branch of Conversations?

  716. no_1729 has left

  717. Mikaela has joined

  718. moparisthebest has left

  719. moparisthebest has joined

  720. no_1729 has joined

  721. Daniel

    It's probably a bit of a stretch to call that branch mix-capable

  722. govanify has left

  723. Steve Kille has left

  724. djorz has left

  725. MattJ

    A bit of a stretch or a lot of stretch? Just having something capable of joining would be a start

  726. MattJ

    Alternatively I may need to write a test client

  727. govanify has joined

  728. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    kaidan also has a branch but not at working condition eiter

  729. Daniel

    Joining (via direct join not PAM) receiving and sending basic messages and showing participants if a recall correctly.

  730. Daniel

    But depending on when or where you want to play around with mix it might make more sense to start from scratch based on C3

  731. Zash

    Did we ever define a MUC style direct full resource join?

  732. Zash

    IIRC it was mentioned as a potential transition step for PAM-less servers

  733. Daniel

    Depends on what you mean by muc style but IIRC Conversations only does that

  734. Seve has left

  735. Seve has joined

  736. Daniel

    Ah never mind. I'm wrong I think

  737. Titi has left

  738. marc0s has left

  739. marc0s has joined

  740. no_1729 has left

  741. MattJ

    Where is the PAM-less join specified?

  742. MattJ

    So far I have only found text stating that PAM is required

  743. Kev

    I don't know if it made it into any of the specs yet. I'm fairly sure, without checking, it was just for the client to send to the server the same stanza (but full rather than bare JID) that the server would have sent.

  744. Kev

    I don't know if it made it into any of the specs yet. I'm fairly sure, without checking, it was just for the client to send to the room the same stanza (but full rather than bare JID) that the server would have sent on the user's behalf.

  745. MattJ

    My cursory reading suggests it isn't in the spec, indeed

  746. Daniel

    does it even make a lot of sense to do backward compat that way? if MUC isn’t going anywhere for a while and you want legacy clients to still join your server via MUC then clients that support mix but have server that don’t use mix-pam can fall back to muc

  747. uhoreg has left

  748. Half-Shot has left

  749. Matthew has left

  750. homebeach has left

  751. Half-Shot has joined

  752. Matthew has joined

  753. homebeach has joined

  754. uhoreg has joined

  755. Daniel

    i'm not saying don’t spec it but as a client developer having one way to join a mix room and if that doesn’t work fall back to muc seems simpler

  756. MattJ

    Makes sense

  757. Zash

    It also makes sense if you have MUC code and want to bolt MIX protocol handling on top of it

  758. Zash

    So you can do full or bare JID joins, with MUC or MIX syntax .... mmmmm multiplication :S

  759. tbm16 has joined

  760. MattJ

    Okay, I'm confused. What does the participant server need to implement?

  761. MattJ

    You'd think this question would be answered, not raised, by "XEP-0405: Mediated Information eXchange (MIX): Participant Server Requirements"

  762. Zash

    With full JID joins, nothing

  763. Zash

    With bare JID joins, PAM?

  764. MattJ

    I looked at PAM, but the syntax and namespace is different

  765. Zash

    Oh no

  766. MattJ

    so I have to implement both?

  767. MattJ

    It's not clear

  768. Kev

    Which namespaces are different? I can easily believe that splitting the specs has led to updates not propagating to all of them.

  769. Daniel

    yes as someone who wants to join a mix room my server has to support 405

  770. Daniel

    when i join a mix i sent a <client-join channel="room-on-other-domain"/> to my account

  771. Daniel

    so there would probably be a mod_mix_pam and a mod_mix

  772. Maxence has left

  773. MattJ

    For example: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0405.html#example-4 has the client sending stuff to its own server in the 'urn:xmpp:mix:pam:2' namespace, but XEP-0376 only has 'urn:xmpp:pam:0'

  774. Steve Kille has joined

  775. Maxence has joined

  776. Daniel

    i think it is relatively save to ignore pam

  777. stp has joined

  778. Daniel

    you only need mix-pam

  779. Kev

    376 and MIX are independent.

  780. Daniel

    > In future, this specification MAY be incorporated into Pubsub Account Management (XEP-0376) [4] (PAM) which follows a similar model. MAY future...

  781. Kev

    You shouldn't* need anything from 376, just what's in 369 and related. [* But, of course ... ]

  782. MattJ


  783. MattJ

    Okay, so when people talk about PAM they mean MIX-PAM and PAM is an attempt to make it generic that nobody actually uses right now

  784. MattJ

    (correct me if I'm wrong)

  785. Daniel

    well sometimes when people talk about PAM they mean PAM

  786. Daniel

    but in the context of mix they mean mix-pam

  787. Kev

    PAM the idea came first, for use with 60 pubsub. When MIX the idea came along, using the same model seemed to make sense, so people used the same term.

  788. Kev

    As I recall.

  789. Daniel


  790. Daniel

    that's how i remember it too

  791. Kev

    So you could think of it as "60 PAM" and "MIX PAM" if you liked.

  792. Daniel

    is PAM a thing in the UK by the way?

  793. MattJ

    Clear as mud :)

  794. MattJ

    I'm worried this will make sense to me one day

  795. Wojtek has left

  796. MattJ

    Pluggable authentication modules?

  797. Daniel

    the cooking spray

  798. Zash


  799. MattJ

    Not that I'm aware

  800. uhoreg has left

  801. Half-Shot has left

  802. Matthew has left

  803. homebeach has left

  804. Half-Shot has joined

  805. Matthew has joined

  806. homebeach has joined

  807. uhoreg has joined

  808. asterix has left

  809. asterix has joined

  810. Maxence has left

  811. Maxence has joined

  812. no_1729 has joined

  813. marc0s has left

  814. marc0s has joined

  815. atomicwatch has left

  816. no_1729 has left

  817. Ingolf has left

  818. marmarper has joined

  819. BASSGOD has left

  820. no_1729 has joined

  821. Wojtek has joined

  822. papatutuwawa has joined

  823. gooya has left

  824. gooya has joined

  825. Seve has left

  826. Seve has joined

  827. petrescatraian has left

  828. Guus

    Curious: does anyone happen to know if XMPP is used in the world of railways / rolling stock? I keep finding job offers that are not really specific for XMPP, but do mention it, from companies that seem operate in that business. Multiple countries, even, Italy, the UK.

  829. Menel has left

  830. Menel has joined

  831. Guus

    oh, digging through the the layer of recruiters, this all seems to boil down to Hitachi Rail Limited.

  832. Zash

    XMPP on Rails?

  833. intosi


  834. BASSGOD has joined

  835. moparisthebest shudders

  836. Zash

    Aaaaaw https://www.hitachirail.com/search-results/?Q=xmpp

  837. marmarper has left

  838. paul has left

  839. Ingolf has joined

  840. Menel

    > Your search for 'xmpp' has returned 0 results: Did one expect results?

  841. Menel

    Ah, didn't read the above messages.

  842. Guus

    There's one mention in this paper - I'm not sure if it's related to Hitachi, but mentions real-time monitoring of rolling stock over XMPP, I think: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326316004_The_railway_predictive_maintenance_and_the_enabling_role_of_the_Internet_of_Things

  843. Guus

    anyways, just curious.

  844. no_1729 has left

  845. Guus

    dinnertime! byes!

  846. Zash

    disco#items rail car contents? mmmmmmmmmm

  847. petrescatraian has joined

  848. marmarper has joined

  849. chipmnk has left

  850. chipmnk has joined

  851. marmarper has left

  852. marc0s has left

  853. marc0s has joined

  854. Menel has left

  855. Menel has joined

  856. Steve Kille has left

  857. Dele Olajide has joined

  858. Andrzej has joined

  859. Dele Olajide has left

  860. Dele Olajide has joined

  861. neshtaxmpp has left

  862. neshtaxmpp has joined

  863. Andrzej has left

  864. no_1729 has joined

  865. resoli has joined

  866. projjalm has left

  867. Steve Kille has joined

  868. Mikaela has left

  869. Andrzej has joined

  870. adiaholic has left

  871. Mikaela has joined

  872. Andrzej has left

  873. no_1729 has left

  874. uhoreg has left

  875. Half-Shot has left

  876. Matthew has left

  877. homebeach has left

  878. Half-Shot has joined

  879. Matthew has joined

  880. homebeach has joined

  881. uhoreg has joined

  882. Tobias has left

  883. Tobias has joined

  884. adiaholic has joined

  885. Tobias has left

  886. Tobias has joined

  887. Wojtek has left

  888. kinetik has left

  889. Wojtek has joined

  890. Wojtek has left

  891. Wojtek has joined

  892. praveen has left

  893. flashcore has left

  894. no_1729 has joined

  895. kinetik has joined

  896. inky has left

  897. djorz has joined

  898. marc0s has left

  899. marc0s has joined

  900. flashcore has joined

  901. gooya has left

  902. gooya has joined

  903. no_1729 has left

  904. jabberjocke has joined

  905. jabberjocke has left

  906. Tobias has left

  907. Tobias has joined

  908. atomicwatch has joined

  909. jgart has left

  910. Wojtek has left

  911. nuron has left

  912. nuron has joined

  913. marmarper has joined

  914. snow has joined

  915. jcbrand has left

  916. jcbrand has joined

  917. Tobias has left

  918. Tobi has left

  919. Tobi has joined

  920. Tobias has joined

  921. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0309.html anybody using the 'urn:xmpp:public-server' NS defined in there? What does 'public' mean exactly?

  922. twisted firestarter has left

  923. moparisthebest

    I'd say that means not private

  924. pep.


  925. moparisthebest

    > The server is a public node on the XMPP network

  926. moparisthebest

    Good question though, that's all I see

  927. pep.

    Yeah, it's defining a word by using that same word

  928. Tobias has left

  929. Tobias has joined

  930. Wojtek has joined

  931. paul has joined

  932. chipmnk has left

  933. chipmnk has joined

  934. marmarper has left

  935. pep.

    wurstsalat, emus, where can we talk about providers.xmpp.net? https://codeberg.org/joinjabber/collective/issues/15

  936. Tobias has left

  937. Tobias has joined

  938. Tobias has left

  939. Tobias has joined

  940. jgart has joined

  941. emus

    > MattJ: > 2023-02-08 09:47 (GMT+01:00) > Yeah, we don't need much money if we don't spend it. If people have concrete proposals (i.e. including amounts) then we can decide if that's something we want to allocate resources for. The only such proposal in my memory in recent years was paying someone to do social media and community management stuff, and that did not get approval. and one other certain topic 😊

  942. Tobias has left

  943. Tobias has joined

  944. Ingolf has left

  945. emus

    pep.: in our repo? or what do you mean? I recommend to wait until we are done with automation and new parameters perhaps

  946. Tobias has left

  947. Tobias has joined

  948. MattJ

    I know of two topics where money has been proposed as a solution: infrastructure and editor tooling. Neither had concrete proposals :)

  949. Zash

    Maybe we should throw money on coming up with proposals?

  950. paul has left

  951. emus

    > Daniel: > 2023-02-08 10:06 (GMT+01:00) > I think emus and team have been doing a very good job wrt PR lately. thanks Daniel 🧡

  952. jgart has left

  953. emus

    > MattJ: > 2023-02-08 07:20 (GMT+01:00) > I know of two topics where money has been proposed as a solution: infrastructure and editor tooling. Neither had concrete proposals :) We had tasks, effort and amount of money specified

  954. pep.

    MattJ, fwiw, questions concerning money I've had in the past have been shot down rather quickly, or left completely unanswered, so yeah there hasn't been much concrete stuff proposed.. :/

  955. paul has joined

  956. MattJ

    emus, okay, you're right. But you know I can't get into this topic again... :)

  957. pep.

    emus, I mean stuff that could be common to both our projects that we could help with

  958. pep.

    We'd help on the technical bits if there's a way we can reuse the list, or even just the tooling

  959. zonsopkomst has left

  960. zonsopkomst has joined

  961. pep.

    Is there a place that isn't here maybe where we can discuss this?

  962. wladmis has left

  963. wladmis has joined

  964. emus

    > ralphm: > 2023-02-08 11:46 (GMT+01:00) > Everything about organizing this was not very well done, and I'm sure we'll do better next year. Yes! Certainly in!

  965. moparisthebest

    "I would want servers that dont accept fascists and such." Yes only list servers where the admin has to interview the new user before allowing them to sign up 🤣

  966. resoli has left

  967. pep.

    moparisthebest, ..

  968. david has joined

  969. david has left

  970. uhoreg has left

  971. Half-Shot has left

  972. Matthew has left

  973. homebeach has left

  974. Half-Shot has joined

  975. Matthew has joined

  976. homebeach has joined

  977. uhoreg has joined

  978. emus

    > MattJ: > 2023-02-08 07:24 (GMT+01:00) > emus, okay, you're right. But you know I can't get into this topic again... :) I know and cry :-)

  979. moparisthebest

    The worst part about that site is users hear about this great XMPP thing and type joinxmpp.org and are immediately confused about what this jabber thing is

  980. Seve


  981. jgart has joined

  982. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    oh the xmpp vs jabber again XD

  983. pep.

    Yeah whatever. As long as we use either XMPP or Jabber there will be issues with that anyway

  984. emus

    > pep.: > 2023-02-08 07:25 (GMT+01:00) > We'd help on the technical bits if there's a way we can reuse the list, or even just the tooling you can reuse the list already if you want

  985. pep.

    emus, I don't just want to reuse the list, we don't want to be passive about it

  986. Dele Olajide has left

  987. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    the interest is the gathered data from the server. and how to automate that said data

  988. Ingolf has joined

  989. moparisthebest

    pep.: Why not host a copy of the website with s/jabber/XMPP/ on joinxmpp.org ? Then no one will be confused

  990. moparisthebest

    Can be trivially automated, I'll do it if you want

  991. pep.

    So we're alternatively named JoinJabber and JoinXMPP? And we also bridge chatrooms? :)

  992. resoli has joined

  993. moparisthebest

    Just hiding them behind appropriate links would be enough I think

  994. pep.


  995. pep.

    I know I'm quick to jump into bikeshed discussions, but this is too much

  996. moparisthebest

    Type in jabber.org or jabber.com into a browser like a new user might

  997. moparisthebest

    xmpp.org works

  998. moparisthebest

    Jabber still exists as a Cisco product that isn't quite XMPP, it's past time to let it go, I can't in good conscience link people to joinjabber

  999. pep.

    Yes yes

  1000. pep.

    Then don't

  1001. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    well you already dont like the CoC we have so

  1002. egnun has left

  1003. egnun has joined

  1004. emus

    > pep.: > 2023-02-08 07:41 (GMT+01:00) > emus, I don't just want to reuse the list, we don't want to be passive about it Ok, but then propose in the gitlab repo, we dont have a channel yet

  1005. pep.

    emus, ok

  1006. moparisthebest

    MSavoritias (fae,ve): no I have no problem with that, I just think "not allowing fascists to register" is an absurd and impossible task, it's perfectly fine to have not banning bad users as a reason for list removal in the CoC but wording it like that isn't helpful

  1007. moparisthebest

    Unless you have some suggestions for actually preventing fascists from registering in the first place I'm unaware of?

  1008. uhoreg has left

  1009. Half-Shot has left

  1010. Matthew has left

  1011. homebeach has left

  1012. Half-Shot has joined

  1013. Matthew has joined

  1014. homebeach has joined

  1015. uhoreg has joined

  1016. pep.

    moparisthebest, where have you seen this btw?

  1017. moparisthebest

    pep.: The issue you linked

  1018. snow

    What does NG stand for in XEP-0409?

  1019. MattJ

    Next Generation

  1020. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    oh. thats in progress think. we havent decided on the exact wording yet

  1021. pep.

    moparisthebest, so a random comment that isn't a concrete proposal?

  1022. moparisthebest


  1023. pep.

    moparisthebest, ok get lost please

  1024. pep.

    And I'll leave it at this

  1025. moparisthebest

    Don't get me wrong I really like everything you all are doing over there *except* using the wrong name and holding joinxmpp.org hostage which could be easily remedied

  1026. moparisthebest

    If you don't want comments on your CoC proposals maybe don't bring it up in this room :)

  1027. marc0s has left

  1028. marc0s has joined

  1029. pep.

    You know you're just playing on words here and you seem happy about it

  1030. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    thats not the CoC even ><

  1031. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    so you are wrong on that too

  1032. MattJ

    moparisthebest, this isn't the right place to discuss this (if there even is one). I feel your comment is picking the least favourable interpretation. It's possible to have a policy and enforce that policy on a best-effort basis, even if it's not possible to vet every user and every message. Abuse reports are a thing.

  1033. stpeter has joined

  1034. MattJ

    As for Jabber/XMPP, we'll never settle that one either. Just let them be.

  1035. moparisthebest

    Right, I believe I said as much, at least I tried to

  1036. Tobias has left

  1037. Tobias has joined

  1038. moparisthebest

    XMPP/Jabber is settled, search it on any search engine, the top result is Cisco jabber which last I heard wasn't even compatible with XMPP

  1039. pep.

    That's just like.. your opinion

  1040. moparisthebest

    What part is opinion

  1041. moparisthebest

    Wikipedia doesn't even know what it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabber

  1042. MattJ

    The part about Cisco Jabber appearing first is fact. The part about Jabber therefore being unusable is opinion.

  1043. pep.

    Ah sorry you're the incarnation of neutrality and fact again, I forgot :)

  1044. pep.

    Ah sorry you're the incarnation of neutrality and facts again, I forgot :)

  1045. Tobias has left

  1046. Tobias has joined

  1047. moparisthebest

    MattJ: fair

  1048. no_1729 has joined

  1049. pep.

    also Cisco Jabber appearing first is Google's opinion :-°

  1050. moparisthebest

    And ddg, and bing

  1051. pep.

    Still an opinion

  1052. MattJ

    Differences of opinion are normal and okay. We don't need to fight it out. If you don't want to participate in the joinjabber project, that's totally fine. We don't need to know :)

  1053. moparisthebest

    I guess you have to ask yourself who you are trying to get on XMPP, people already here for decades who know what jabber is, or people who haven't heard of either jabber or XMPP

  1054. Trung has left

  1055. pep.

    moparisthebest, we get it, you disagree

  1056. moparisthebest

    So what about my offer to automate changing the text at joinjabber.org to XMPP when viewed at joinxmpp.org ? Don't need to answer now it's a standing offer

  1057. pep.

    There's xmpp:chat@joinjabber.org?join if you're serious about it and if it's not just a one-off. I'm not the only one to decide, but I already feel like it's going to be a pain

  1058. stp has left

  1059. mjk has left

  1060. moparisthebest

    Got it, I'll work up a POC and propose it there, thanks

  1061. Seve


  1062. Tobias has left

  1063. Tobias has joined

  1064. pep.

    I think it's such a waste to focus on the name when the interest of this project is something else, but whatever

  1065. Wojtek has left

  1066. Daniel

    I like what you are doing with joinjabber. Website looks great

  1067. stpeter has left

  1068. pep.

    Thanks! That's a lot of work from Kris for the migration. And Line and Guillaume for the graphics :)

  1069. mirux has left

  1070. mirux has joined

  1071. Tobias has left

  1072. mjk has joined

  1073. Tobias has joined

  1074. no_1729 has left

  1075. Tobias has left

  1076. Tobias has joined

  1077. KitKat::new() has joined

  1078. Tobias has left

  1079. Tobias has joined

  1080. Tobias has left

  1081. Tobias has joined

  1082. Tobias has left

  1083. Tobias has joined

  1084. wurstsalat

    Hi XEP people! I'd like to hear your comments on this XEP lifecycle diagram:

  1085. wurstsalat


  1086. wurstsalat

    any suggestions for improvements? is it correct?

  1087. Zash

    Experimental ↔ Deferred

  1088. Tobias has left

  1089. Tobias has joined

  1090. MattJ

    Yeah, if you can, I would amend that part

  1091. wurstsalat


  1092. MattJ

    It looks like the normal transition would be Experimental -> Deferred -> Proposed

  1093. wurstsalat

    like this?

  1094. MattJ

    Deferred should be an exception state (although it's certainly a common one), the normal transition would be Experimental -> Proposed, if you're trying to explain the lifecycle to someone

  1095. antranigv has left

  1096. brunrobe has joined

  1097. MattJ

    So maybe just Experimental <---> Proposed, with Deferred to the side

  1098. brunrobe has left

  1099. KitKat::new() has left

  1100. Maranda[x] has left

  1101. MattJ

    Also there are some inconsistencies if you compare it to XEP-0001's diagram: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#approval-std

  1102. Zash

    Does Deferred serve a purpose?

  1103. MattJ

    For example, XEP-0001 shows that it can go directly from Experimental to Retracted, but yours does not allow that

  1104. MattJ

    XEP-0001 suggests it's also impossible to retract a deferred XEP :)

  1105. MattJ

    (unless you update or propose it first)

  1106. Zash

    { Experimental ↔ Deferred } → { Proposed Retracted Rejected } { Proposed → Stable → Final } → Deprecated → Obsolete ?

  1107. Zash

    I need to add ↔ to my keyboard layout!

  1108. MattJ

    > Does Deferred serve a purpose? Very good question :)

  1109. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    yeah deferred seemed always a bit useless to me

  1110. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    basically the unpopular xeps are there

  1111. no_1729 has joined

  1112. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    and they may be implemented and resurected

  1113. emus

    wurstsalat: thanks wurstsalat!!!!

  1114. KitKat::new() has joined

  1115. brunrobe has joined

  1116. Zash

    It's Experimental + time without changes. You can find that by sorting the list by date.

  1117. Wojtek has joined

  1118. KitKat::new() has left

  1119. brunrobe has left

  1120. MSavoritias (fae,ve)


  1121. MattJ

    I feel like it's good to have a "we're not actively working on this" status, but I think the "hasn't been updated for N months" has not turned out to be a good heuristic for that

  1122. MSavoritias (fae,ve)


  1123. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    I liked the idea I saw in the mailing list the other day

  1124. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    of having experimental xeps being added by default without votes

  1125. pep.

    MattJ, agreed. If we kept using the same heuristic, I'd increase it to something like 3-4 years..

  1126. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    and just vote on the stable ones

  1127. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    something like experimental -> stable -> obsolete/retracted

  1128. djorz has left

  1129. Axel has left

  1130. no_1729 has left

  1131. neshtaxmpp has left

  1132. neshtaxmpp has joined

  1133. resoli has left

  1134. Ingolf has left

  1135. atomicwatch has left

  1136. wurstsalat


  1137. wurstsalat

    how's this?

  1138. pep.

    Does a Deferred XEP need to go through Experimental before going to Proposed again?

  1139. Daniel

    Council issues a last call for a deferred xep today

  1140. Daniel

    Council issued a last call for a deferred xep today

  1141. pep.

    wurstsalat, so you need a link from Deferred to Proposed as well :P

  1142. Daniel

    So no?!

  1143. djorz has joined

  1144. pep.

    I think I'd put it outside of the lifecycle box.. with dashed lines.

  1145. stpeter has joined

  1146. Zash

    We can do whatever we want, these are not laws of physics :)

  1147. Daniel

    One could argue that the state transition through experimental is implicit

  1148. wurstsalat

    it doesn't have to be formally correct, but it should be guiding people who don't know anything about the process. I plan to show it here: https://xmpp.org/about/standards-process/

  1149. stp has joined

  1150. Zash

    Deferred kinda sounds like it was an explicit decision to Defer the XEP, maybe it should be? Eligible if there doesn't seem to be any movement, either in discussion or implementation.

  1151. pep.

    emus, wurstsalat, re providers', would you join xmpp:servers@joinjabber.org?join maybe to chat there?

  1152. Zash

    For ... 25% of the age of Jabber. (Thus in like 2004, it would have been ~1 year, now more like 5)

  1153. MSavoritias (fae,ve) has left

  1154. Ingolf has joined

  1155. paul has left

  1156. antranigv has joined

  1157. projjalm has joined

  1158. paul has joined

  1159. Tobias has left

  1160. Tobi has left

  1161. Tobi has joined

  1162. Tobias has joined

  1163. atomicwatch has joined

  1164. Tobias has left

  1165. Tobias has joined

  1166. snow has left

  1167. edhelas has left

  1168. edhelas has joined

  1169. no_1729 has joined

  1170. marc0s has left

  1171. marc0s has joined

  1172. marc0s has left

  1173. marc0s has joined

  1174. emus

    pep.: Its not that I am unwilling to discuss, and we always have been, but see this: I haven't even managed to publish the newsletter. On the project we are really busy with automation, and reviews are pending. Maybe it would make sense to discuss after we have published, when I look at our current capacities

  1175. emus

    I prefer to spent my time there

  1176. emus

    but maybe one of the other want to

  1177. emus

    Still you can make proposals to the gitlab repo if you want

  1178. wladmis has left

  1179. wladmis has joined

  1180. wurstsalat

    pep., I just joined there ;)

  1181. pep.

    wurstsalat, ok thanks :)

  1182. wurstsalat


  1183. wurstsalat

    so how about this?

  1184. pep.

    emus, ok sure. we're just trying not to duplicate the whole thing again. But if cooperation isn't smooth it will certainly be easier for us to do our own thing. (Don't get me wrong I understand the lack of time/motivation)

  1185. pep.

    wurstsalat, bidirectional arrows are not possible here?

  1186. twisted firestarter has joined

  1187. emus

    Okay, then maybe state the differences you see and we can respond accordingly or tell what changes are up to come anyway so you dont need to do it

  1188. moparisthebest has left

  1189. wurstsalat

    pep., it's mermaid syntax, they are possible. but I tried to be closer to https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#approval-std

  1190. moparisthebest has joined

  1191. Wojtek has left

  1192. millesimus has left

  1193. david has joined

  1194. david has left

  1195. KitKat::new() has joined

  1196. Ingolf has left

  1197. stpeter has left

  1198. millesimus has joined

  1199. snow has joined

  1200. Fishbowler has left

  1201. Fishbowler has joined

  1202. stpeter has joined

  1203. stpeter has left

  1204. Mjolnir Archon has joined

  1205. Yagiza has left

  1206. Wojtek has joined

  1207. Maranda has joined

  1208. marc0s has left

  1209. marc0s has joined

  1210. marc0s has left

  1211. marc0s has joined

  1212. marc0s has left

  1213. marc0s has joined

  1214. no_1729 has left

  1215. Ingolf has joined

  1216. no_1729 has joined

  1217. marc0s has left

  1218. marc0s has joined

  1219. no_1729 has left

  1220. marc0s has left

  1221. marc0s has joined

  1222. projjalm has left

  1223. intosi has left

  1224. intosi has joined

  1225. antranigv has left

  1226. SteveF has left

  1227. no_1729 has joined

  1228. mirux has left

  1229. carlos has left

  1230. carlos has joined

  1231. catchy has left

  1232. BASSGOD has left

  1233. marc0s has left

  1234. marc0s has joined

  1235. resoli has joined

  1236. kinetik has left

  1237. emus

    Finally: https://xmpp.org/2023/02/the-xmpp-newsletter-december-2022-january-2023/

  1238. arcxi has left

  1239. Titi has joined

  1240. kinetik has joined

  1241. millesimus has left

  1242. millesimus has joined

  1243. paul has left

  1244. Skull Fucker has left

  1245. Skull Fucker has joined

  1246. snow has left

  1247. Skull Fucker has left

  1248. Skull Fucker has joined

  1249. Skull Fucker has left

  1250. Skull Fucker has joined

  1251. Skull Fucker has left

  1252. tbm16 has left

  1253. tbm16 has joined

  1254. Skull Fucker has joined

  1255. Skull Fucker has left

  1256. Skull Fucker has joined

  1257. Skull Fucker has left

  1258. Skull Fucker has joined

  1259. Skull Fucker has left

  1260. Skull Fucker has joined

  1261. Skull Fucker has left

  1262. Skull Fucker has joined

  1263. Skull Fucker has left

  1264. Skull Fucker has joined

  1265. Skull Fucker has left

  1266. stpeter has joined

  1267. Skull Fucker has joined

  1268. stpeter has left

  1269. Skull Fucker has left

  1270. Skull Fucker has joined

  1271. Skull Fucker has left

  1272. Skull Fucker has joined

  1273. Skull Fucker has left

  1274. Skull Fucker has joined

  1275. inky has joined

  1276. arcxi has joined

  1277. Tobias has left

  1278. Tobi has left

  1279. Maxence has left

  1280. Maxence has joined

  1281. emus

    Matt, the people on twitter must love you, the post with your presentation got 2nd best view stats from all posts 🙂 Just the impressions from the Summit got more 😛

  1282. praveen has joined

  1283. Axel Reimer has left

  1284. emus

    I have no access to the xmpp twitter account through twitterdeck - something changed?

  1285. millesimus has left

  1286. snow has joined

  1287. PeterW has joined

  1288. pep.

    Weren't third-party clients forbidden recently? I don't use Twitter though

  1289. Daniel

    Musk fucking things up 🤷

  1290. pep.

    You mean centralized platforms fucking things up

  1291. millesimus has joined

  1292. Daniel

    It's technically not a third party client

  1293. pep.

    Musk is just helping a bit here :)

  1294. emus

    ^^ so this really dont work anymore?

  1295. moparisthebest

    They just disabled the API, or are going to shortly

  1296. Daniel

    They probably forgot that tweetdeck is their own product lol

  1297. moparisthebest

    Hehehe I would not be surprised

  1298. emus


  1299. emus

    moparisthebest: twitterdeck

  1300. atomicwatch has left

  1301. moparisthebest


  1302. moparisthebest

    Here have an appropriate meme for this situation

  1303. PeterW has left

  1304. pep.

    Really, incel memes? :/

  1305. moparisthebest


  1306. nicoco has left

  1307. wurstsalat


  1308. resoli has left

  1309. praveen has left

  1310. emus

    ^^ I'll apply for direct access

  1311. PeterW has joined

  1312. resoli has joined

  1313. PeterW has left

  1314. PeterW has joined

  1315. stp has left

  1316. PeterW has left

  1317. jcbrand has left

  1318. Menel has left

  1319. Menel has joined

  1320. atomicwatch has joined

  1321. atomicwatch has left

  1322. adiaholic has left

  1323. adiaholic has joined

  1324. Tobi has joined

  1325. Tobias has joined

  1326. tbm16 has left

  1327. atomicwatch has joined

  1328. atomicwatch has left

  1329. wurstsalat has left

  1330. asterix has left

  1331. moparisthebest has left

  1332. moparisthebest has joined

  1333. asterix has joined

  1334. jgart has left

  1335. neox has left

  1336. atomicwatch has joined

  1337. atomicwatch has left

  1338. floretta has left

  1339. Titi has left

  1340. Tobi has left

  1341. Tobias has left

  1342. xecks has left

  1343. jgart has joined

  1344. neshtaxmpp has left

  1345. floretta has joined

  1346. neshtaxmpp has joined

  1347. marc0s has left

  1348. marc0s has joined

  1349. atomicwatch has joined

  1350. atomicwatch has left

  1351. Mario Sabatino has left

  1352. Vidak has joined

  1353. atomicwatch has joined

  1354. atomicwatch has left

  1355. kurisu has left

  1356. LNJ has left

  1357. LNJ has joined

  1358. resoli has left

  1359. PeterW has joined

  1360. adiaholic has left

  1361. intosi has left

  1362. intosi has joined

  1363. adiaholic has joined

  1364. paul has joined

  1365. PeterW has left

  1366. djorz has left

  1367. no_1729 has left

  1368. tbm16 has joined

  1369. L29Ah has left

  1370. papatutuwawa has left

  1371. Menel has left

  1372. djorz has joined

  1373. atomicwatch has joined

  1374. atomicwatch has left

  1375. no_1729 has joined

  1376. LNJ has left

  1377. djorz has left

  1378. djorz has joined

  1379. Ingolf has left

  1380. carlos has left

  1381. Ingolf has joined

  1382. Maxence has left

  1383. atomicwatch has joined

  1384. atomicwatch has left

  1385. carlos has joined

  1386. L29Ah has joined

  1387. djorz has left

  1388. djorz has joined

  1389. Wojtek has left

  1390. zonsopkomst has left

  1391. zonsopkomst has joined

  1392. marc0s has left

  1393. atomicwatch has joined

  1394. djorz has left

  1395. marc0s has joined

  1396. djorz has joined

  1397. djorz has left

  1398. emus has left

  1399. lovetox has left

  1400. snow has left

  1401. antranigv has joined