XSF Discussion - 2023-02-08


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  180. emus

    > Guus: > 2023-02-07 08:04 (GMT+01:00) > If (I'm not saying it is) we deem it important for XMPP to be well represented, maybe the XSF can consider funding people (eg: council and board members) to attend meetings like these. +1

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  189. emus

    > MattJ: > 2023-02-07 08:21 (GMT+01:00) > I'm not saying there isn't more we can do (there always will be), but it's not like we're doing nothing I used to claim we should move from the passive corner to the active one

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  191. emus

    in general, no saying folks are not invsting time. But for me it feels often limited to resources

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  196. emus

    Daniel: I think it will be moved by one week

  197. Daniel

    emus: yes thank you. I saw the emails

  198. emus

    Daniel: ok

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  238. flow

    I always assumed that the XSF not doing more which money is that there is no-one really taking care of financial stuff in the XSF (besides the absolute minimum that is required to keep the org going). has that changed or is my assumption wrong?

  239. flow

    I always assumed that the XSF not doing more which money is because there is no-one really taking care of financial stuff in the XSF (besides the absolute minimum that is required to keep the org going). has that changed or is my assumption wrong?

  240. Guus

    My assumption is that these are two sides of the same coin.

  241. jonas’

    I think our treasurer expressed quite explicitly that they're happy in using the money if we have good ideas how

  242. jonas’

    (which are acceptable under the regulations the XSF is under)

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  248. MattJ

    Yeah, we don't need much money if we don't spend it. If people have concrete proposals (i.e. including amounts) then we can decide if that's something we want to allocate resources for. The only such proposal in my memory in recent years was paying someone to do social media and community management stuff, and that did not get approval.

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  253. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    thats too bad

  254. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    xmpp could use more outreach

  255. Daniel

    MattJ: did the XSF pay for you to go to IETF London? I'm honestly asking because I don't know. If they did I think this should have been communicated more clearly (as a good thing)

  256. Guus

    MattJ: Oh, I didn't know that. Do you remember what were the reasonings for both the ask, as for the disapproval?

  257. jonas’

    Daniel, I got reimbursement for the remote IETF participation fwiw

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  259. Daniel

    jonas’: OK good to know. I know that it was discussed. But I wasn't sure if it had actually happened

  260. Daniel

    Plus the XSF paid for the conference room for summit (although I'm also a bit confused on how and when that actually got decided)

  261. Daniel

    So it's not like the XSF never pays for anything

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  263. Daniel

    If we want to attract sponsors in the future we should communicate more openly on what we spend our money

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  265. Guus

    I think that better communication would be a good thing, but I don't think it'd matter much to potential sponsors. Most of them likely do not care, as long as we're not spending it on things like sponsoring the Taliban.

  266. flow

    I fondly remember the days when there were regular blog posts about XSF income and expenses

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  275. Guus

    any blog posts, really. The newsletter is most excellent, but it would be nice if that was not the lion share of the blog. I fully realize that I myself can help fix that by submitting blog post content...

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  277. Daniel

    I think emus and team have been doing a very good job wrt PR lately.

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  280. Daniel

    it's just the income+expenses that are missing and i don’t think that's the comm teams fault

  281. Guus

    I in no way want to suggest otherwise.

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  286. Daniel

    plus before Covid we had a sprint budget that I think we got to used once before the pandemic ruined everything

  287. Guus

    I don't agree that this is all that's missing. We used to do a lot more with the blog - post about elections, board goals, etc.

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  290. Guus

    I'm a big fan of those sprints!

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  294. wurstsalat

    ah, board goals :) https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/564

  295. wurstsalat

    > I'm a big fan of those sprints! yes!

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  297. MattJ

    Daniel: it was agreed that the XSF would fund my IETF attendance, yes. Have I actually submitted the expenses yet? No... 😅

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  299. MattJ

    I am hoping the XSF will also cover at least some of the cost of the printing I did for FOSDEM

  300. MattJ

    SCAM has a budget, but it was obviously exceeded this year due to the conference room

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  305. Guus

    Assuming that the printing was all XSF-related and printing costs were within reasonable ranges (conforming to regular prices), I'd hope that you'd be 100% reimbursed.

  306. Daniel

    when the scam budget was allocated we did not account having to pay for a the venues. the scam budget was/is for printing and maybe some snacks

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  308. MattJ

    Yeah

  309. Daniel

    so i would hope that the conference room either doesn’t come out of the scam budget or the scam budget will get raised significantly

  310. Guus

    iirc the SCAM budget was 1000 euro / year. I truly have no idea what a conference room costs, but was it over that?

  311. Daniel

    a little over 2k

  312. Guus

    wowza

  313. MattJ

    The budget IIRC was set in USD, and the conference room was 2k EUR

  314. Guus

    oh, you are probably right.

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  316. intosi

    At least we got a lot of entertainment out of the coffee machine and the proprietary app required for connecting to the projector.

  317. MattJ

    I never did get my hot chocolate

  318. Zash

    Demand a refund!

  319. intosi

    I think the machine rejected the notion of it also having to deal with chocolate.

  320. Daniel

    I actually think it would make sense to give summit it's own budget. because for normal sprints I think it is reasonable to have he sprint host organize some sort of venue. while summit needs it's own 'proper' venue

  321. MattJ

    Guus [09:25]: > Assuming that the printing was all XSF-related and printing costs were within reasonable ranges (conforming to regular prices), I'd hope that you'd be 100% reimbursed. Some are clearly XSF (newsletter, etc.), but what about project-specific materials?

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  323. Daniel

    I actually think it would make sense to give summit it's own budget. because for normal sprints I think it is reasonable to have the sprint host organize some sort of venue. while summit needs it's own 'proper' venue

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  328. Guus

    MattJ: I'm not sure if there's precedent for project-specific materials. To me, it would be not out of the question to reimburse for that, but maybe there's an argument to be had there. As for XSF-specific stuff, that's a no-brainer to me: 100% reimbursement.

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  330. Daniel

    I’m sure the XSF benefited from the fact that there was marketing material at the XSF booth even if some of it was project specific.

  331. Daniel

    so unless you want to get reimbursted for the life size plush snikket you had made I'd say it's probably fine

  332. jonas’

    excuse me what there was a plush

  333. MattJ

    No 😂

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  335. Guus

    From what I could find from what I asked to be reimbursed and received from the XSF in the past, that excluded project-specific stuff, but did include things like the XMPP-logo sticker, the XMPP flags, taxis to/from the XSF dinner and some lunches at the summit.

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  337. Guus

    I'm a bit ambivalent on reimbursement for project-specific stuff. Where do we draw a clear line?

  338. Guus

    or: do we offer something like this to all members / member projects?

  339. Daniel

    I wasn’t at fosdem so I don’t know what MattJ is refering to. but what i meant to say that the 'newsletter' he made for example is fine

  340. Daniel

    the 10ft banner "snikket is awesome" maybe not

  341. Guus

    generic stuff is fine to me. But Prosody stickers? hmm.

  342. MattJ

    Yes, the newsletter, client comparison chart, some leaflets introducing/explaining XMPP

  343. Guus

    How do you see those as 'project-specific' ?

  344. MattJ

    Alongside that I printed materials for Movim, Snikket and Cheogram

  345. Guus

    ah. :)

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  348. MattJ

    Also some stuff from freie-messenger.de

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  355. Guus

    oh, I didn't realize that you printed project-specific stuff for many projects.

  356. Guus

    Did you volunteer that, or did those projects ask you? If the latter, maybe look at them first, for reimbursement?

  357. Guus

    Otherwise, I'd personally be more comfortable not getting this from the XSF (especially since this is an after-the-facts kind of thing). I would be willing to split the bill with you personally though, as bottom line, this helped the community.

  358. MattJ

    So the background is that last year^Wtime, I printed some Snikket leaflets and brought them with me

  359. MattJ

    There was almost nothing else at the stand

  360. MattJ

    This year I didn't want that to happen, so I made some generic XMPP stuff, and I told folk that if they sent me materials I would get them printed at the same time when I went to the print shop

  361. Guus

    Thank you.

  362. jonas’

    I'm with Guus, basically, including the "splitting the bill" part, the more the merrier.

  363. MattJ

    I'm happy with the results, we had a range of materials available and it was significantly easier to explain XMPP and how it's an ecosystem of software and services

  364. jonas’

    but I think it would also be good if board had a discussion how this can be improved for the next event; I think having materials there is a good thing™ and giving projects implementing XSF standards an opportunity to present themselves with a small budget supported by the XSF to improve the XSF stand, seems sensible.

  365. jonas’

    but I get that a post-fact thing may be a bit irritating to onlookers

  366. MattJ

    If I absolutely needed to know the XSF would cover the expenses I would have sought budget approval in advance, or just not done it, but TBH it's fine either way, I don't regret doing it and there wasn't a lot of time to spend discussion specifics

  367. MattJ

    If I absolutely needed to know the XSF would cover the expenses I would have sought budget approval in advance, or just not done it, but TBH it's fine either way, I don't regret doing it and there wasn't a lot of time to spend discussing specifics

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  370. MattJ

    In my mind when I planned it, there was the SCAM budget. But with the surprise last-minute expense of the conference room I understand that this year was a little different to usual with regards to cost.

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  373. MattJ

    Oh, and I also bought the leaflet holders, which are now packed in the XSF's FOSDEM boxes

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  375. MattJ

    That was because the year *before* 2020 we'd actually had quite limited space on the stand, with too many materials and demos taking up space on one table

  376. Guus

    Again, thank you. I definitely want you to be reimbursed, as I admire what you did and think it added a lot of value. I'd just prefer to not have the project-specific stuff be reimbursed through the XSF - but I'll help you cover those costs. That's maybe a bit more of a hassle with splitting bills, but will still get you what I hope you'll find fairly reimbursed.

  377. MattJ

    Nah, I don't mind, we can call it a donation to the ecosystem :)

  378. MattJ

    I don't see a clear way for the XSF to start funding project specific stuff without it becoming a minefield (wait until Isode want stuff printed... :) )

  379. jonas’

    literal minefield, I see.

  380. MattJ

    Haha

  381. MattJ

    Just an example, that it's not only open-source projects in the ecosystem

  382. Guus

    Well, we could device some sort of 'budget-for-marketing-for-member-projects' scheme - that could be fair-ish, and beneficial to in particular the smaller projects.

  383. Kev

    In fact, I think that most of the XSF's money has come from non-OSS projects (or freemium OSS projects).

  384. Guus

    but lets get that in place _before_ spending the money :)

  385. jonas’

    if it's just a few bucks for flyers and those are at the XSF stand, and are positive (i.e. no degarotary statements about competitors or so), I think I wouldn't have an issue with that.

  386. MattJ

    Kev, and the people providing that money wanted it to support other non-OSS/freemium projects? :)

  387. Kev

    > , and the people providing that money wanted it to support other non-OSS/freemium projects? :) Oh, I doubt it. Just reminding folks.

  388. Kev

    Or, well, not *only* such projects.

  389. Kev

    A rising tide, all boats, floating, etc.

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  394. Guus

    Is Kev going nautical on us?

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  396. intosi

    Aye.

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  408. Kev

    I'm not naughty, I'm a good boy.

  409. Guus

    I'm resisting an urge to comment.

  410. Guus

    let's just say that I think a blue/white striped shirt would look good on intosi.

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  412. intosi

    🤨

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  417. ralphm

    The costs for FOSDEM/Summit generally include the van, taxis, and materials for the booth/lounge. That's what we allocated the SCAM budget for (among other events, of course). The costs for the venue were indeed new, and as we had a majority of board members in agreement that we should do that, knowing the costs, I went ahead. I don't consider it part of the SCAM budget. Some details were shared on the board mailing list, and Peter also requested to send in the invoices after event (as usual). So yes we didn't have an explicit board meeting on this, but I will definitely include it in our next meeting.

  418. ralphm

    Everything about organizing this was not very well done, and I'm sure we'll do better next year.

  419. Zash

    Understandable, given the time since last time :)

  420. ralphm

    As for funding things in general and the lack of attempts to get sponsors, is basically because not much happened that required additional funds. I think this will change dramatically this year.

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  466. Guus

    In Stream Management, what is the expected behavior when a peer sends a 'h' value that is _lower_ than the value that it sent previously?

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  469. Zash

    fatal stream error, disconnect

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  471. intosi

    Technically there's rollover, but that would mean the server is acking 2**32-small_n stanzas, which should also lead to that stream error.

  472. Guus

    Lol

  473. Guus

    I hadn't thought of that

  474. flow

    if a stream mangement participant acks more stanzas that where send then this should lead to a stream error

  475. flow

    because either the acking participant counted wrong, or the participant that send the stanzas

  476. Zash

    There's a bug, it should be reported and fixed.

  477. flow

    you could potentially implement a robost mode that simply deactivates/ignores further sm related actions, but that is rarely useful

  478. flow

    you could potentially implement a robust mode that simply deactivates/ignores further sm related actions, but that is rarely useful

  479. Zash

    ignore the bug? then it'll never be fixed

  480. Zash

    and others will adopt the same bug!

  481. flow

    Zash, aggreed

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  483. intosi

    I think the words in 6 Error Handling are clear that the right behaviour is to close the stream.

  484. flow

    Zash, agreed

  485. flow

    pfff, words in specs

  486. Guus

    The peer acks not more, but less stanzas in my question

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  488. flow

    but yes, we are all on the same page that a stream error is the right thing to do™

  489. Guus

    Less than it acked earlier

  490. intosi

    No, it acks more, because rollover.

  491. flow

    Guus, what intosi said

  492. Guus

    Right

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  494. flow

    you can not unack stanzas, the ack counter is only ever going forward, with the technicnal limitation that its a uint32 with defined overflow semantics

  495. intosi

    So if your rollover logic is working, the stream error should follow naturally.

  496. Zash

    Is anyone testing rollover? :)

  497. intosi

    Zash: we are :).

  498. flow

    testing? dunno, but IIRC smack has code for it

  499. Trung has joined

  500. Guus

    We apparently have broken rollover code, because it did not catch this

  501. Zash

    I fear we might not have rollover handling at all 😱️

  502. no_1729 has joined

  503. flow

    dos vector detected

  504. Zash

    it would take DoS levels of stanzas to reach it anyway, right? 🤷️

  505. marmarper has left

  506. flow

    I didn't say "fast dos vector detected" :)

  507. intosi

    Or very long lived connections that keep resuming indefinitely. Reaching 2**32 stanzas will take a while though ;-).

  508. intosi

    connections -> sessions.

  509. Zash

    I'd expect either you get a stream error, or it continues until around 2⁵³ and experience Weirdness, or wrap around at 2⁶⁴. Mmmmm number types, so much fun.

  510. sonny has joined

  511. Zash

    Hm, are there error conditions for mis-count bugs?

  512. Zash

    We use `undefined-condition` with some text

  513. intosi

    Assuming your peer doesn't cut you off because you didn't send a u32.

  514. intosi

    Example 16 has an error for that.

  515. intosi

    (it's defined in the text right above it.)

  516. Zash

    Oh when did `handled-count-too-high` appear?

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  519. intosi

    Didn't check, but "recent".

  520. intosi

    Guus committed that in 2018.

  521. moparisthebest

    > The budget IIRC was set in USD, and the conference room was 2k EUR Luckily that's the same these days lol

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  548. Guus

    Exchange rates are well on their way to be back to the old levels, I noticed when I last did my invoicing.

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  551. Daniel

    Guus: do you invoice in your customers currency?

  552. Zash cries in SEK

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  557. Guus

    Daniel: only for (some) Americans. Some stereotypes aren't pulled out of thin air...

  558. jonas’

    *US Americans, I assume

  559. Guus

    Oh yes.

  560. pep.

    Dunno if it's been seen, I'll ask again. There are people in Asia around here right? Even if not an XSF member. That can be sent to an IETF meeting in Japan. It'd only be fair that the XSF makes an effort to encourage local people to go I feel, instead or in addition to volunteers from other places.

  561. Guus

    For some reason, the larger that the organisation is, the _less_ likely that they're aware that something exists outside of the USA.

  562. SteveF has joined

  563. jonas’

    Guus, is that a reflection of your customers, or a reply to pep.?

  564. Guus

    No argument here, pep.

  565. Guus

    a reflection of dealing with _some_ of my US-based customers.

  566. Daniel

    pep.: I generally agree with you. For IETF though I feel like this should be somebody that is rather close to the XSF

  567. Guus

    I've had large orgs sent me a check. My local bank was amazed. :)

  568. Guus

    (also, home-made cookies. I did not forward those to my local bank though)

  569. sjm has joined

  570. Zash cries in invoicing system that could mail invoices XOR send EUR invoices

  571. Daniel

    Like for normal conferences to staff booths or give talks we shouldn't fly someone to the other side of the world

  572. SteveF has left

  573. Daniel

    Not just because money but also because of that thing called climate change

  574. jonas’

    s/change/catastrophy/

  575. pep.

    Daniel, I don't know. I think that would also be best, but I think there needs some kind of bootstrapping happening. Something something chicken/egg

  576. jonas’

    bootstrapping by throwing someone into an IETF meeting sounds harsh

  577. pep.

    :D

  578. jonas’

    I've attended the MIMI session remotely and it was pretty arcane to me

  579. arcxi has joined

  580. jonas’

    and I *am* close to the XSF, or at least I'd think I'm above the median

  581. pep.

    And yeah, preferring local people for that thing called climate something

  582. Guus

    Zash: my invoicing system is a set of text files, Libreoffice to generate a PDF, and email. Takes me about 1.5 hours/month. I do not see automation pay for itself there.

  583. Daniel

    We should find ways to encourage sprints and/or conference participation outside Europe. But I feel like IETF is the worst place to do that

  584. pep.

    I agree with sprints.

  585. pep.

    I don't know re IETF. I'm not going to die on this hill but I think it's important that we at least make an effort in this direction. And if it's not (yet?) possible then fine

  586. jonas’

    someone™ could send a mail to members@

  587. no_1729 has joined

  588. pep.

    (not me, I'm not in there anymore :p)

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  598. pep.

    I may have asked already, does anybody handle see-other-host?

  599. pep.

    Or gone, with a pointer to some other place

  600. jonas’

    I know that see-other-host is used by tigase clustering

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  629. Andrzej

    yes, Tigase is using see-other-host and our software is using it

  630. Andrzej

    also gone is used to communicate that cluster node is being shutdown

  631. pep.

    I would kind of see more of these redirects supported in clients. I should open issues here and there

  632. jonas’

    just be careful to not introduce security issues with those…

  633. singpolyma has left

  634. pep.

    Well they're in the protocol already..

  635. jonas’

    e.g. following a <see-other-host/> before TLS is probably a bad idea

  636. pep.

    Probably

  637. jonas’

    unless you enforce the same certificate name bindings on the destination as you would've on the source

  638. pep.

    Or is it. You can still check the certificate on the dest

  639. pep.

    :)

  640. jonas’

    but a naive implementation wouldn't do that as you have to carry the information that you came from a redirect and which redirect you came from along

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  715. MattJ

    MIX-capable clients? Siskin and an old branch of Conversations?

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  721. Daniel

    It's probably a bit of a stretch to call that branch mix-capable

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  725. MattJ

    A bit of a stretch or a lot of stretch? Just having something capable of joining would be a start

  726. MattJ

    Alternatively I may need to write a test client

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  728. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    kaidan also has a branch but not at working condition eiter

  729. Daniel

    Joining (via direct join not PAM) receiving and sending basic messages and showing participants if a recall correctly.

  730. Daniel

    But depending on when or where you want to play around with mix it might make more sense to start from scratch based on C3

  731. Zash

    Did we ever define a MUC style direct full resource join?

  732. Zash

    IIRC it was mentioned as a potential transition step for PAM-less servers

  733. Daniel

    Depends on what you mean by muc style but IIRC Conversations only does that

  734. Seve has left

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  736. Daniel

    Ah never mind. I'm wrong I think

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  741. MattJ

    Where is the PAM-less join specified?

  742. MattJ

    So far I have only found text stating that PAM is required

  743. Kev

    I don't know if it made it into any of the specs yet. I'm fairly sure, without checking, it was just for the client to send to the server the same stanza (but full rather than bare JID) that the server would have sent.

  744. Kev

    I don't know if it made it into any of the specs yet. I'm fairly sure, without checking, it was just for the client to send to the room the same stanza (but full rather than bare JID) that the server would have sent on the user's behalf.

  745. MattJ

    My cursory reading suggests it isn't in the spec, indeed

  746. Daniel

    does it even make a lot of sense to do backward compat that way? if MUC isn’t going anywhere for a while and you want legacy clients to still join your server via MUC then clients that support mix but have server that don’t use mix-pam can fall back to muc

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  755. Daniel

    i'm not saying don’t spec it but as a client developer having one way to join a mix room and if that doesn’t work fall back to muc seems simpler

  756. MattJ

    Makes sense

  757. Zash

    It also makes sense if you have MUC code and want to bolt MIX protocol handling on top of it

  758. Zash

    So you can do full or bare JID joins, with MUC or MIX syntax .... mmmmm multiplication :S

  759. tbm16 has joined

  760. MattJ

    Okay, I'm confused. What does the participant server need to implement?

  761. MattJ

    You'd think this question would be answered, not raised, by "XEP-0405: Mediated Information eXchange (MIX): Participant Server Requirements"

  762. Zash

    With full JID joins, nothing

  763. Zash

    With bare JID joins, PAM?

  764. MattJ

    I looked at PAM, but the syntax and namespace is different

  765. Zash

    Oh no

  766. MattJ

    so I have to implement both?

  767. MattJ

    It's not clear

  768. Kev

    Which namespaces are different? I can easily believe that splitting the specs has led to updates not propagating to all of them.

  769. Daniel

    yes as someone who wants to join a mix room my server has to support 405

  770. Daniel

    when i join a mix i sent a <client-join channel="room-on-other-domain"/> to my account

  771. Daniel

    so there would probably be a mod_mix_pam and a mod_mix

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  773. MattJ

    For example: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0405.html#example-4 has the client sending stuff to its own server in the 'urn:xmpp:mix:pam:2' namespace, but XEP-0376 only has 'urn:xmpp:pam:0'

  774. Steve Kille has joined

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  776. Daniel

    i think it is relatively save to ignore pam

  777. stp has joined

  778. Daniel

    you only need mix-pam

  779. Kev

    376 and MIX are independent.

  780. Daniel

    > In future, this specification MAY be incorporated into Pubsub Account Management (XEP-0376) [4] (PAM) which follows a similar model. MAY future...

  781. Kev

    You shouldn't* need anything from 376, just what's in 369 and related. [* But, of course ... ]

  782. MattJ

    Aha

  783. MattJ

    Okay, so when people talk about PAM they mean MIX-PAM and PAM is an attempt to make it generic that nobody actually uses right now

  784. MattJ

    (correct me if I'm wrong)

  785. Daniel

    well sometimes when people talk about PAM they mean PAM

  786. Daniel

    but in the context of mix they mean mix-pam

  787. Kev

    PAM the idea came first, for use with 60 pubsub. When MIX the idea came along, using the same model seemed to make sense, so people used the same term.

  788. Kev

    As I recall.

  789. Daniel

    yes

  790. Daniel

    that's how i remember it too

  791. Kev

    So you could think of it as "60 PAM" and "MIX PAM" if you liked.

  792. Daniel

    is PAM a thing in the UK by the way?

  793. MattJ

    Clear as mud :)

  794. MattJ

    I'm worried this will make sense to me one day

  795. Wojtek has left

  796. MattJ

    Pluggable authentication modules?

  797. Daniel

    the cooking spray

  798. Zash

    mod_auth_pam_mix?

  799. MattJ

    Not that I'm aware

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  828. Guus

    Curious: does anyone happen to know if XMPP is used in the world of railways / rolling stock? I keep finding job offers that are not really specific for XMPP, but do mention it, from companies that seem operate in that business. Multiple countries, even, Italy, the UK.

  829. Menel has left

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  831. Guus

    oh, digging through the the layer of recruiters, this all seems to boil down to Hitachi Rail Limited.

  832. Zash

    XMPP on Rails?

  833. intosi

    Hah.

  834. BASSGOD has joined

  835. moparisthebest shudders

  836. Zash

    Aaaaaw https://www.hitachirail.com/search-results/?Q=xmpp

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  840. Menel

    > Your search for 'xmpp' has returned 0 results: Did one expect results?

  841. Menel

    Ah, didn't read the above messages.

  842. Guus

    There's one mention in this paper - I'm not sure if it's related to Hitachi, but mentions real-time monitoring of rolling stock over XMPP, I think: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326316004_The_railway_predictive_maintenance_and_the_enabling_role_of_the_Internet_of_Things

  843. Guus

    anyways, just curious.

  844. no_1729 has left

  845. Guus

    dinnertime! byes!

  846. Zash

    disco#items rail car contents? mmmmmmmmmm

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  921. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0309.html anybody using the 'urn:xmpp:public-server' NS defined in there? What does 'public' mean exactly?

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  923. moparisthebest

    I'd say that means not private

  924. pep.

    👏️

  925. moparisthebest

    > The server is a public node on the XMPP network

  926. moparisthebest

    Good question though, that's all I see

  927. pep.

    Yeah, it's defining a word by using that same word

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  935. pep.

    wurstsalat, emus, where can we talk about providers.xmpp.net? https://codeberg.org/joinjabber/collective/issues/15

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  941. emus

    > MattJ: > 2023-02-08 09:47 (GMT+01:00) > Yeah, we don't need much money if we don't spend it. If people have concrete proposals (i.e. including amounts) then we can decide if that's something we want to allocate resources for. The only such proposal in my memory in recent years was paying someone to do social media and community management stuff, and that did not get approval. and one other certain topic 😊

  942. Tobias has left

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  945. emus

    pep.: in our repo? or what do you mean? I recommend to wait until we are done with automation and new parameters perhaps

  946. Tobias has left

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  948. MattJ

    I know of two topics where money has been proposed as a solution: infrastructure and editor tooling. Neither had concrete proposals :)

  949. Zash

    Maybe we should throw money on coming up with proposals?

  950. paul has left

  951. emus

    > Daniel: > 2023-02-08 10:06 (GMT+01:00) > I think emus and team have been doing a very good job wrt PR lately. thanks Daniel 🧡

  952. jgart has left

  953. emus

    > MattJ: > 2023-02-08 07:20 (GMT+01:00) > I know of two topics where money has been proposed as a solution: infrastructure and editor tooling. Neither had concrete proposals :) We had tasks, effort and amount of money specified

  954. pep.

    MattJ, fwiw, questions concerning money I've had in the past have been shot down rather quickly, or left completely unanswered, so yeah there hasn't been much concrete stuff proposed.. :/

  955. paul has joined

  956. MattJ

    emus, okay, you're right. But you know I can't get into this topic again... :)

  957. pep.

    emus, I mean stuff that could be common to both our projects that we could help with

  958. pep.

    We'd help on the technical bits if there's a way we can reuse the list, or even just the tooling

  959. zonsopkomst has left

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  961. pep.

    Is there a place that isn't here maybe where we can discuss this?

  962. wladmis has left

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  964. emus

    > ralphm: > 2023-02-08 11:46 (GMT+01:00) > Everything about organizing this was not very well done, and I'm sure we'll do better next year. Yes! Certainly in!

  965. moparisthebest

    "I would want servers that dont accept fascists and such." Yes only list servers where the admin has to interview the new user before allowing them to sign up 🤣

  966. resoli has left

  967. pep.

    moparisthebest, ..

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  978. emus

    > MattJ: > 2023-02-08 07:24 (GMT+01:00) > emus, okay, you're right. But you know I can't get into this topic again... :) I know and cry :-)

  979. moparisthebest

    The worst part about that site is users hear about this great XMPP thing and type joinxmpp.org and are immediately confused about what this jabber thing is

  980. Seve

    True

  981. jgart has joined

  982. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    oh the xmpp vs jabber again XD

  983. pep.

    Yeah whatever. As long as we use either XMPP or Jabber there will be issues with that anyway

  984. emus

    > pep.: > 2023-02-08 07:25 (GMT+01:00) > We'd help on the technical bits if there's a way we can reuse the list, or even just the tooling you can reuse the list already if you want

  985. pep.

    emus, I don't just want to reuse the list, we don't want to be passive about it

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  987. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    the interest is the gathered data from the server. and how to automate that said data

  988. Ingolf has joined

  989. moparisthebest

    pep.: Why not host a copy of the website with s/jabber/XMPP/ on joinxmpp.org ? Then no one will be confused

  990. moparisthebest

    Can be trivially automated, I'll do it if you want

  991. pep.

    So we're alternatively named JoinJabber and JoinXMPP? And we also bridge chatrooms? :)

  992. resoli has joined

  993. moparisthebest

    Just hiding them behind appropriate links would be enough I think

  994. pep.

    meh

  995. pep.

    I know I'm quick to jump into bikeshed discussions, but this is too much

  996. moparisthebest

    Type in jabber.org or jabber.com into a browser like a new user might

  997. moparisthebest

    xmpp.org works

  998. moparisthebest

    Jabber still exists as a Cisco product that isn't quite XMPP, it's past time to let it go, I can't in good conscience link people to joinjabber

  999. pep.

    Yes yes

  1000. pep.

    Then don't

  1001. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    well you already dont like the CoC we have so

  1002. egnun has left

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  1004. emus

    > pep.: > 2023-02-08 07:41 (GMT+01:00) > emus, I don't just want to reuse the list, we don't want to be passive about it Ok, but then propose in the gitlab repo, we dont have a channel yet

  1005. pep.

    emus, ok

  1006. moparisthebest

    MSavoritias (fae,ve): no I have no problem with that, I just think "not allowing fascists to register" is an absurd and impossible task, it's perfectly fine to have not banning bad users as a reason for list removal in the CoC but wording it like that isn't helpful

  1007. moparisthebest

    Unless you have some suggestions for actually preventing fascists from registering in the first place I'm unaware of?

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  1016. pep.

    moparisthebest, where have you seen this btw?

  1017. moparisthebest

    pep.: The issue you linked

  1018. snow

    What does NG stand for in XEP-0409?

  1019. MattJ

    Next Generation

  1020. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    oh. thats in progress think. we havent decided on the exact wording yet

  1021. pep.

    moparisthebest, so a random comment that isn't a concrete proposal?

  1022. moparisthebest

    Yes

  1023. pep.

    moparisthebest, ok get lost please

  1024. pep.

    And I'll leave it at this

  1025. moparisthebest

    Don't get me wrong I really like everything you all are doing over there *except* using the wrong name and holding joinxmpp.org hostage which could be easily remedied

  1026. moparisthebest

    If you don't want comments on your CoC proposals maybe don't bring it up in this room :)

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  1029. pep.

    You know you're just playing on words here and you seem happy about it

  1030. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    thats not the CoC even ><

  1031. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    so you are wrong on that too

  1032. MattJ

    moparisthebest, this isn't the right place to discuss this (if there even is one). I feel your comment is picking the least favourable interpretation. It's possible to have a policy and enforce that policy on a best-effort basis, even if it's not possible to vet every user and every message. Abuse reports are a thing.

  1033. stpeter has joined

  1034. MattJ

    As for Jabber/XMPP, we'll never settle that one either. Just let them be.

  1035. moparisthebest

    Right, I believe I said as much, at least I tried to

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  1038. moparisthebest

    XMPP/Jabber is settled, search it on any search engine, the top result is Cisco jabber which last I heard wasn't even compatible with XMPP

  1039. pep.

    That's just like.. your opinion

  1040. moparisthebest

    What part is opinion

  1041. moparisthebest

    Wikipedia doesn't even know what it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabber

  1042. MattJ

    The part about Cisco Jabber appearing first is fact. The part about Jabber therefore being unusable is opinion.

  1043. pep.

    Ah sorry you're the incarnation of neutrality and fact again, I forgot :)

  1044. pep.

    Ah sorry you're the incarnation of neutrality and facts again, I forgot :)

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  1047. moparisthebest

    MattJ: fair

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  1049. pep.

    also Cisco Jabber appearing first is Google's opinion :-°

  1050. moparisthebest

    And ddg, and bing

  1051. pep.

    Still an opinion

  1052. MattJ

    Differences of opinion are normal and okay. We don't need to fight it out. If you don't want to participate in the joinjabber project, that's totally fine. We don't need to know :)

  1053. moparisthebest

    I guess you have to ask yourself who you are trying to get on XMPP, people already here for decades who know what jabber is, or people who haven't heard of either jabber or XMPP

  1054. Trung has left

  1055. pep.

    moparisthebest, we get it, you disagree

  1056. moparisthebest

    So what about my offer to automate changing the text at joinjabber.org to XMPP when viewed at joinxmpp.org ? Don't need to answer now it's a standing offer

  1057. pep.

    There's xmpp:chat@joinjabber.org?join if you're serious about it and if it's not just a one-off. I'm not the only one to decide, but I already feel like it's going to be a pain

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  1060. moparisthebest

    Got it, I'll work up a POC and propose it there, thanks

  1061. Seve

    Great!

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  1064. pep.

    I think it's such a waste to focus on the name when the interest of this project is something else, but whatever

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  1066. Daniel

    I like what you are doing with joinjabber. Website looks great

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  1068. pep.

    Thanks! That's a lot of work from Kris for the migration. And Line and Guillaume for the graphics :)

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  1084. wurstsalat

    Hi XEP people! I'd like to hear your comments on this XEP lifecycle diagram:

  1085. wurstsalat

    https://spacecloud.one/upload/532f57e5-0e38-4f90-828b-8c689b1ce5f3/122011e3-2995-4567-a17d-7620bd71867d.png

  1086. wurstsalat

    any suggestions for improvements? is it correct?

  1087. Zash

    Experimental ↔ Deferred

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  1090. MattJ

    Yeah, if you can, I would amend that part

  1091. wurstsalat

    https://spacecloud.one/upload/f124f32a-f796-4ddc-a69b-27bbaa6366fa/8132ea5e-24b3-4275-8935-eff785a18aab.png

  1092. MattJ

    It looks like the normal transition would be Experimental -> Deferred -> Proposed

  1093. wurstsalat

    like this?

  1094. MattJ

    Deferred should be an exception state (although it's certainly a common one), the normal transition would be Experimental -> Proposed, if you're trying to explain the lifecycle to someone

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  1097. MattJ

    So maybe just Experimental <---> Proposed, with Deferred to the side

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  1101. MattJ

    Also there are some inconsistencies if you compare it to XEP-0001's diagram: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#approval-std

  1102. Zash

    Does Deferred serve a purpose?

  1103. MattJ

    For example, XEP-0001 shows that it can go directly from Experimental to Retracted, but yours does not allow that

  1104. MattJ

    XEP-0001 suggests it's also impossible to retract a deferred XEP :)

  1105. MattJ

    (unless you update or propose it first)

  1106. Zash

    { Experimental ↔ Deferred } → { Proposed Retracted Rejected } { Proposed → Stable → Final } → Deprecated → Obsolete ?

  1107. Zash

    I need to add ↔ to my keyboard layout!

  1108. MattJ

    > Does Deferred serve a purpose? Very good question :)

  1109. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    yeah deferred seemed always a bit useless to me

  1110. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    basically the unpopular xeps are there

  1111. no_1729 has joined

  1112. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    and they may be implemented and resurected

  1113. emus

    wurstsalat: thanks wurstsalat!!!!

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  1116. Zash

    It's Experimental + time without changes. You can find that by sorting the list by date.

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  1120. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    yeah

  1121. MattJ

    I feel like it's good to have a "we're not actively working on this" status, but I think the "hasn't been updated for N months" has not turned out to be a good heuristic for that

  1122. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    yeah

  1123. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    I liked the idea I saw in the mailing list the other day

  1124. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    of having experimental xeps being added by default without votes

  1125. pep.

    MattJ, agreed. If we kept using the same heuristic, I'd increase it to something like 3-4 years..

  1126. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    and just vote on the stable ones

  1127. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    something like experimental -> stable -> obsolete/retracted

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  1136. wurstsalat

    https://spacecloud.one/upload/0403cf68-8c7e-4a4b-b47a-1809001c92ef/dbd0404a-edb4-4493-b9e8-31553d06ca82.png

  1137. wurstsalat

    how's this?

  1138. pep.

    Does a Deferred XEP need to go through Experimental before going to Proposed again?

  1139. Daniel

    Council issues a last call for a deferred xep today

  1140. Daniel

    Council issued a last call for a deferred xep today

  1141. pep.

    wurstsalat, so you need a link from Deferred to Proposed as well :P

  1142. Daniel

    So no?!

  1143. djorz has joined

  1144. pep.

    I think I'd put it outside of the lifecycle box.. with dashed lines.

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  1146. Zash

    We can do whatever we want, these are not laws of physics :)

  1147. Daniel

    One could argue that the state transition through experimental is implicit

  1148. wurstsalat

    it doesn't have to be formally correct, but it should be guiding people who don't know anything about the process. I plan to show it here: https://xmpp.org/about/standards-process/

  1149. stp has joined

  1150. Zash

    Deferred kinda sounds like it was an explicit decision to Defer the XEP, maybe it should be? Eligible if there doesn't seem to be any movement, either in discussion or implementation.

  1151. pep.

    emus, wurstsalat, re providers', would you join xmpp:servers@joinjabber.org?join maybe to chat there?

  1152. Zash

    For ... 25% of the age of Jabber. (Thus in like 2004, it would have been ~1 year, now more like 5)

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  1174. emus

    pep.: Its not that I am unwilling to discuss, and we always have been, but see this: I haven't even managed to publish the newsletter. On the project we are really busy with automation, and reviews are pending. Maybe it would make sense to discuss after we have published, when I look at our current capacities

  1175. emus

    I prefer to spent my time there

  1176. emus

    but maybe one of the other want to

  1177. emus

    Still you can make proposals to the gitlab repo if you want

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  1180. wurstsalat

    pep., I just joined there ;)

  1181. pep.

    wurstsalat, ok thanks :)

  1182. wurstsalat

    https://spacecloud.one/upload/8f4b2976-c8c3-44a2-8109-a3e6179ea5a3/39d7fb88-7d90-44bf-88e6-55d84eeed9bc.png

  1183. wurstsalat

    so how about this?

  1184. pep.

    emus, ok sure. we're just trying not to duplicate the whole thing again. But if cooperation isn't smooth it will certainly be easier for us to do our own thing. (Don't get me wrong I understand the lack of time/motivation)

  1185. pep.

    wurstsalat, bidirectional arrows are not possible here?

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  1187. emus

    Okay, then maybe state the differences you see and we can respond accordingly or tell what changes are up to come anyway so you dont need to do it

  1188. moparisthebest has left

  1189. wurstsalat

    pep., it's mermaid syntax, they are possible. but I tried to be closer to https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0001.html#approval-std

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  1237. emus

    Finally: https://xmpp.org/2023/02/the-xmpp-newsletter-december-2022-january-2023/

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  1281. emus

    Matt, the people on twitter must love you, the post with your presentation got 2nd best view stats from all posts 🙂 Just the impressions from the Summit got more 😛

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  1284. emus

    I have no access to the xmpp twitter account through twitterdeck - something changed?

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  1288. pep.

    Weren't third-party clients forbidden recently? I don't use Twitter though

  1289. Daniel

    Musk fucking things up 🤷

  1290. pep.

    You mean centralized platforms fucking things up

  1291. millesimus has joined

  1292. Daniel

    It's technically not a third party client

  1293. pep.

    Musk is just helping a bit here :)

  1294. emus

    ^^ so this really dont work anymore?

  1295. moparisthebest

    They just disabled the API, or are going to shortly

  1296. Daniel

    They probably forgot that tweetdeck is their own product lol

  1297. moparisthebest

    Hehehe I would not be surprised

  1298. emus

    fun

  1299. emus

    moparisthebest: twitterdeck

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  1301. moparisthebest

    https://burtrum.org/up/667c1917-e355-41b1-9b11-fdcbac2eed23/zb2rhnN7zgwvaTyp3zdM6HHPh3tCxvwqhDYWKkScYXaW9acw8.jpg

  1302. moparisthebest

    Here have an appropriate meme for this situation

  1303. PeterW has left

  1304. pep.

    Really, incel memes? :/

  1305. moparisthebest

    What

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  1307. wurstsalat

    :D

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  1310. emus

    ^^ I'll apply for direct access

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