XSF Discussion - 2023-02-16

  1. Ge0rG

    There used to be an analysis of xmpp server hosting locations, where 40%(?) of european servers ran at Hetzer. Does it still exist?

  2. Daniel

    Note that the analysis was complete bullshit

  3. Daniel

    But I can probably go dig it up if it's important

  4. Ge0rG

    Not really, I just wanted to have a rough estimate of provider concentration. I can do a dump of my s2s connections and run them through whois easily enough.

  5. Guus

    I'm curious as to the reasons for a complete bullshit analysis on this subject being created and floating around.

  6. Guus

    Was this some kind of marketing thing by Hetzer?

  7. Daniel

    It was a bad faith analysis to discredit XMPP. It was done by folks who on their website are extremely pro Signal. The server list was retrieved from the compliance tester (only the public list for people who opted in to make the server public) They checked the A records of the domains not actually connect to it. That's why conversations.im for example showed up as hetzner even though it's not hosted there

  8. Daniel

    So it only tells you that the compliance tested is popular in Germany / Europe

  9. Daniel

    Which doesn't tell you anything about XMPP

  10. Ge0rG


  11. Daniel

    Ironically someone else did this on Mastodon. (probably not bad faith) originally got similar results because their sample list was BS. Then they subsequently tried to get a better sample and then the results improved to were there was no Clear 'winner'

  12. Daniel

    Obviously big cheap providers are big and cheap. But there is also quite a few of them

  13. MattJ


  14. MattJ

    XMPP servers on port 5269 (counts are IPs)

  15. Ge0rG

    this looks veeeeeery biased

  16. Ge0rG

    MattJ: is that from shodan?

  17. MattJ


  18. Daniel

    Which doesn't tell you a lot about the public xmpp server...

  19. Daniel

    Which doesn't tell you a lot about the public xmpp network

  20. MattJ

    Yes, it's not about public XMPP servers

  21. MattJ

    The spike is Dreamhost's shared hosting service, which has been around a long time and include(s|d) XMPP

  22. Ge0rG

    bad faith or not, hetzner is rather dominant.

  23. Ge0rG

    maybe fetching the first line of `desc:` from whois was not such a good idea. I've ssen two personal names of regulars from this room scrolling by already ;)

  24. Ge0rG

    of 882 servers in my s2s, 139 run at hetzner.

  25. Ge0rG

    and 38 run at "Transferred to the RIPE region on 2018-06-27T02"

  26. Ge0rG

    OVH clocks in with 10

  27. Ge0rG

    Transferred-to looks like another Hetzner ASN

  28. Ge0rG

    so counted together, hetzner is >20% of xmpp servers that talk to yax.im

  29. MattJ

    but https://xkcd.com/1138/

  30. Alex

    does not surpise me, their pricing is very competitive for dedicated hardware, VMs and Cloud

  31. Ge0rG

    netcup is ~6%, and all the other big ones are below 2%, respectively

  32. Ge0rG

    Jonas SchƤfer is 0.6%

  33. Guus

    Lies, damned lies and statistics.

  34. Guus

    fwiw, I doubt that Openfire has such a bias towards Hetzner. Maybe I could do a heatmap of geolocated IPs from update checks, or somesuch. Results wouldn't be affected by federation, but by installation base. That in itself isn't any indicator of a server's popularity, so... yeah. Statistics.

  35. MattJ

    The thing is, Hetzner is a popular hosting provider, that's all

  36. MattJ

    It's not something about XMPP, it's something about where people mostly get their servers when they want to run stuff

  37. MattJ

    Everything not on smaller providers like Hetzner is on larger providers like Amazon and... guess where Signal servers run

  38. Guus

    people that are on servers that connect to Ge0rG's server, that is.

  39. Alex

    agree with Matt, and they have some tutorials which makes it simple to get up a server and running using their servives. Like: https://community.hetzner.com/tutorials/prosody-debian9

  40. Alex

    agree with Matt, and they have some tutorials which makes it simple to get up a server and running using their services. Like: https://community.hetzner.com/tutorials/prosody-debian9

  41. Ge0rG

    "debian9" got me triggered

  42. moparisthebest

    If someone wants to get a real number for the public federated network they can subscribe to the firehose that is the certificate transparency logs and try to connect to each domain via s2s, for a 3 month period

  43. moparisthebest

    Still a possibility to miss some where the domain is *.bob.com and the XMPP server is at aoeu.bob.com but you'd get most

  44. emus

    ralphm, MattJ: I need to stay out due to sickness. sorry. but maybe one can review on my points. I also wrote my opinion on the topics

  45. emus

    if we switch to have it in chat I still may can make it

  46. MattJ

    No worries, thanks for letting us know. Get well soon!

  47. emus


  48. Guus

    Ok tried to follow the board meeting though the Jitsi Android app, but the audio was distorted. I gave up.

  49. emus


  50. stpeter

    if folks would prefer we can of course use text chat insteadā€¦

  51. Guus

    Oh, I don't mind much. I only commented on my attempt here, in case some of the people in the call were wondering what I was doing, joining and leaving repeatedly.

  52. jonasā€™

    moparisthebest, FTR, you wouldn't find any of my domains

  53. jonasā€™

    hm, though, you would find some, (s.j.n is on 5222 I think), but not all

  54. moparisthebest

    jonasā€™: because wildcard or?

  55. wurstsalat

    FYI, there is now a XEP lifecycle diagram at https://xmpp.org/about/standards-process/#a-xeps-lifecycle. the diagram's code is editable using any mermaid editor. code can be found here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/commit/e544dbd071428941908fcbe30a1ea5d215fa4c56