XSF Discussion - 2023-02-19

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  224. Daniel

    singpolyma: you mentioned somewhere that you support groups in bookmarks (similar to how roster item groups work). I assume the element is just called group. But what's the namespace?

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  375. Daniel

    jcbrand, I think something isn’t right with the tos and froms in the 425 examples

  376. Daniel

    i think the intent is that the room fakes a retract coming from the person who originally send the bad message?

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  387. pep.

    Yeah that could be coming from the participant. Also, as someone made me realize, the room doesn't exactly need to get involved here. Optionally to remove the message from the archive, but otherwise clients can check that a user has the proper affiliation for this.

  388. pep.

    Though.. I guess that wouldn't go well with fine grained permissions (hats etc.)

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  401. Daniel

    I think it's better if the room does that. Otherwise you have to implement two verification methods in the client. And developers tend to fuck up just one

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  406. pep.

    Well you don't trust (client) developers but you trust (server) developers, which is it :p

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  437. pep.

    I get that it's not exactly trust, fwiw, this was a bit of a pun. But I'm not sure I understand why "two" checks in the client (that would have also been implemented on the server anyway?)

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  459. jcbrand

    > i think the intent is that the room fakes a retract coming from the person who originally send the bad message? Why would it do that? The retraction is from a moderator.

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  463. jcbrand

    The MUC service determines whether a retraction by a 3rd party (i.e. moderator) is allowed

  464. Daniel

    to be compatible with retractions?

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  467. Daniel

    i’m not saying we should be compatible with retractions. but i thought that was the goal

  468. jcbrand

    Yeah I think it's a worthy goal, but somehow I think it's misleading to pretend that the author retracted their own message

  469. Daniel

    and you'd still know who moderated it because of the 'by'

  470. jcbrand


  471. jcbrand

    yeah I guess it's better how you suggest due to compatibility concerns

  472. Daniel

    yes i'm on the fence if we should make it compatible with clients that only support retractions

  473. Daniel


  474. Daniel

    > android:icon="@drawable/ic_workspaces_24dp"

  475. jcbrand

    I implemented both together and kinda always saw them as related

  476. Daniel

    > I think it's misleading to pretend that the author retracted their own message

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  478. jcbrand

    > I think it's misleading to pretend that the author retracted their own message Yes and also, the message is really from the room, not from the author

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  480. Daniel

    then you can’t be compatible with retractions

  481. jcbrand

    One could argue that if a client only supports XEP-0424, it doesn't support XEP-0425

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  483. jcbrand

    I like the idea of allowing them to somehow still retract messages without knowing about XEP-0425, but not necessarily at the expense of semantics

  484. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    Yeah. Also could this be abused?

  485. jcbrand

    Normal users can't send stanzas on behalf of other users

  486. MSavoritias (fae,ve)

    If we have to fake from who it comes from?

  487. jcbrand

    So not really, as long as the client checks the sender

  488. jcbrand

    Unless you don't trust the MUC service at all, but then why are you using it?

  489. pep.

    Yeah the MUC is supposed to check that you're who you say you are in a message so no.

  490. pep.

    Yeah the MUC is supposed to check that you're who you say you are in a payload so no.

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  492. MSavoritias (fae,ve)


  493. jcbrand

    Daniel: I'm a bit on the fence. I can see someone making the argument: "The `from` is from the sender because it's their original message that's retracted and the `<moderated>` element specifies who did it". But then again, clients that don't check the moderator element might then wrongly report that the user retracted their own message

  494. Daniel

    yes I don’t think they necessarily need to be compatible

  495. jcbrand

    The way I had it before, with the `moderated` outside of the `retracted` element had the advantage that you could put other elements besides `retracted` inside it, like `correction` (or whatever it's called). I guess you could put the `moderated` inside the `correction`, but I think I prefer the old way. I swopped them out to get compatibility with XEP-0424, but if we don't have compatibility anyway due to the `from`, then I'm not sure the new way is better.

  496. jcbrand

    The way I had it before, with the `moderated` outside of the `retracted` element had the advantage that you could put other elements instead of `retracted` inside it, like `correction` (or whatever it's called). I guess you could put the `moderated` inside the `correction`, but I think I prefer the old way. I swopped them out to get compatibility with XEP-0424, but if we don't have compatibility anyway due to the `from`, then I'm not sure the new way is better.

  497. jcbrand

    I guess with this way, it might be easier to add support for XEP-0425 if you already support XEP-0424

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  499. jcbrand

    Since I'm a web dev who doesn't use an XML parser, I think I have a bit of a blind spot as to how other client devs do things.

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  503. Daniel

    a client that has support for retractions can easily add support for moderation even if the syntax and verfication (check it's coming from bare) is slightly different

  504. Daniel

    the hard part isn’t the xml parsing

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  507. Daniel

    one could maybe even argue that a client might want to support retractions but not moderation

  508. jcbrand


  509. jcbrand

    Or that a client that supports retractions and then also unwittingly supports moderation is dangerous

  510. jcbrand

    I still think there's a general moderation use-case, that goes beyond retractions also

  511. jcbrand

    But people didn't like that I alluded to it without providing details

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  578. pep.

    wurstsalat, is there a short description of what's supposed to go in what category now?

  579. pep.

    What's a "Tool" for exapmle

  580. pep.

    What's a "Tool" for example

  581. pep.

    (That isn't also a client, or a component, or..)

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  586. singpolyma

    Daniel: group, same namespace as in roster, put inside the bookmarks2 extensions area

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  588. Daniel

    singpolyma: OK thanks.

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  676. wurstsalat

    pep.: There isn't yet. Shouldn't be too hard though, since you can apply more that one category

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  688. wurstsalat

    (and there are examples of tools)

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  691. pep.

    Ah? That section is empty for me

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  693. wurstsalat

    you probably selected a specific platform

  694. pep.

    oh, good call

  695. MattJ

    If it's not too hard, maybe add some kind of "X items hidden by filters [Clear filters]"

    👍️ 1
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  697. wurstsalat

    good idea

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  702. pep.

    I'm bringing a question re 377 here, I couldn't find a difference between spam and abuse. Any clue? I also suspect they'd be different from one community to the other..

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  705. Daniel

    Spam =mass messages selling you stuff. Abuse =personal. Insults etc

  706. Daniel


  707. Daniel

    From an operator perspective it's interesting because you can feed 'spam' into your other spam detection heuristics and abuse probably will require some sort of manual intervention

  708. pep.

    Personally, they all fall into abuse. One thing I'd be tempted to say for spam is the repeated characteristic. But I've also often heard the word abuse used for this

  709. pep.


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  711. moparisthebest

    I think spam is always abuse, but abuse isn't always spam

  712. Daniel


  713. Daniel


  714. moparisthebest

    spamming gore pics or advertisements is spam

  715. moparisthebest

    but like, belittling a certain person is abuse, but not spam

  716. Zash

    > Unsolicited bulk electronic messages says

  717. Zash

    > Unsolicited bulk electronic messages says https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spam#Noun

  718. Zash

    Did you want the message? Did they send it to lots of recipients (like, in MUC)? Yes to both = spam!

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  720. Zash

    Yes to first, no to second → abuse, maybe.

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  725. Daniel

    To me Spam is mostly automated. Last night wasn't automated

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  727. Zash

    No true spam isn't automated :)

  728. Daniel

    Just highly processed

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  731. pep.

    I can see this isn't very clear. Unsolicited can me many things as well. Most of my mailbox is unsolicited mail

  732. pep.

    And that's after I've sorted spam out

  733. pep.

    I wonder if it would be possible for a server/community not to include one or the other term from 377 in clients :/

  734. pep.

    Without forking said clients

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  756. singpolyma

    Do we still have a good reason to disallow editing older messages? While updating my code to support moderation last night I'm pretty sure I also allow retraction and edit of any message now

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  760. singpolyma

    (since moderation needed that)

  761. Daniel

    Fwiw Conversations 3 will allow you to edit any message

  762. Daniel

    So no I don't think so

  763. singpolyma

    Sounds like a vote for me to allow it now then if I will after I rebase on c3 anyway ;)

  764. Daniel

    The big difference to me is that C3 will show full history of edits

  765. singpolyma

    That will be nice

  766. Daniel

    Which I think gets rid of some of the side effects of allowing to edit a message from five years ago

  767. Zash


  768. Zash

    IIRC that's a recommendation in the XEP too, to show history of edits.

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  771. pep.

    I also prefer A(ny)MC

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  774. Daniel

    Yes. But tell that early twenties me to design the database properly

  775. pep.


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  828. pep.

    wurstsalat, how about adding GET query params support to be able to share links from that doap page

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  845. edhelas

    In MUC, clients cannot inject <status/> I can imagine ?

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  848. edhelas

    > Yes. But tell that early twenties me to design the database properly Movim had this flaw as well, now I keep the whole history and replace the messages once generating the bubble (might be able to show the history actually as well)

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  854. edhelas

    On a totally different topic, would it be possible for servers to serve avatars over HTTP ?

  855. edhelas

    It's already possible in the XEP, and we have HTTP features already such as for HTTP upload.

  856. edhelas

    This could greatly help to reduce the congestion in XML streams

  857. pep.

    By moving off to HTTP. Are you also going to seel your unborn child?

  858. edhelas


  859. pep.

    Is this actually an issue you have?

  860. pep.


  861. edhelas

    Well, it's more an improvement

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  864. singpolyma

    edhelas: you can of course, but there are privacy concerns since you leak IP to with over http

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  866. edhelas

    When connecting to big chatrooms, I could easily fire parallel Curl download and not get each avatar in base64

  867. singpolyma

    Can you do both? I think you can, then clients can choose

  868. edhelas

    singpolyma yes, the Avatar XEP can do that :)

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  870. Zash

    what we could do is replace XEP-0153 with something like blurhash, like a 4x4 png

  871. edhelas

    Zash as well :)

  872. Zash

    IIRC larma or someone pointed out that a tiny PNG bit without header and stuff would be more efficient than blurhash

  873. singpolyma

    We're using blurhash already for media thumbnails

  874. singpolyma

    (we, Cheogram and Cheogram Android)

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  879. edhelas

    singpolyma ther's a XEP for that ?

  880. singpolyma

    edhelas: just using sims

  881. singpolyma

    <thumbnail with a data uri

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  913. wurstsalat

    > wurstsalat, how about adding GET query params support to be able to share links from that doap page Using hugo?

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  925. Zash

    javascript :(

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  928. pep.

    Well there's an obvious graceful fallback which is you can only share the page and not the query

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  930. Zash

    You can do a lot with CSS actually, but probably not all of the settings

  931. Zash

    #client #server etc could work tho

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  962. pep.

    It seems like DOAP,s <xmpp:note/> doesn't accept structured markup? (does it have to be explicitely defined?) Where do people describe their support for monsters like 0045 or 0060?

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  965. Zash

    plain text

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  1072. edhelas

    Is CDATA valid in XMPP ?

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  1078. singpolyma

    Should be? It's just syntactic

  1079. edhelas


  1080. edhelas

    Because we agree that <body>> quoted message</body> is not valid ?

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  1083. singpolyma


  1084. singpolyma

    So cdata or entity

  1085. singpolyma

    They're equivalent

  1086. edhelas

    Perfect 👍

  1087. pep.

    &gt; that is, not &amp;gt; :P

  1088. singpolyma


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  1100. larma

    > &gt; that is, not &amp;gt; Why would that not be valid?

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  1103. pep.

    I mean &amp;gt; isn't ">"

  1104. pep.

    That's what movim was sending before the last commit, displaying &gt; everywhere in fallback messages instead of >

  1105. larma


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  1109. larma

    I just wanted to mention that only & and < are not allowed in XML character data, but > is. > though must actually be escaped as &gt; when in CDATA

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  1111. larma

    I just wanted to mention that only & and < are not allowed in XML character data, but > is. > though must actually be escaped as &gt; when in CDATA if it appears after ]]

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  1113. Zash

    Pretty sure many XML parsers are totally fine with `<a>></a>`

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