The argument over jabber vs xmpp or both isn't affected by trademark concerns but other things. Some people see jabber as the "old word" etc
Peter Waher
Then the XSF should remove all license requirements for the use of Jabber
Kev
The XSF cannot do so, it doesn't hold the trademark.
tbm16has joined
Mikaelahas left
Peter Waher
Doesn’t matter. It has been assigned (or so it says) to enforce the license for the word✎
Peter Waher
Doesn’t matter. It has been assigned (or so it says) to enforce the license for the word/registered trademark ✏
MattJ
Yes, under certain conditions
singpolyma
I'm sure there are *many* entities with a trademark on jabber, but Cisco has the one most people like to think about here
MattJ
Those conditions don't allow removing all license requirements
Peter Waher
> and you will have a major hassle with us
archas left
Peter Waher
Again, if you’re not familiar with what the XSF says about the term Jabber:
https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/who-needs-a-license/✎
Peter Waher
Again, if you’re not familiar with what the XSF says about the term Jabber:
https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/who-needs-a-license/ ✏
singpolyma
I suggest not to call your client app "JABBER" that's probably a TM violation 😅 but many other user of the word are unaffected, including of course "jabber id" and "jabber network"
Peter Waher
Only because the XSF implicitly considers it “fair use”, or ignores it, or are unaware of it.✎
Peter Waher
Only because the XSF implicitly considers it “fair use”, or ignores it, or is unaware of it. ✏
singpolyma
Peter Waher: we *are* the XSF
MattJ
The XSF doesn't get to decide what is fair use
singpolyma
There is no "them"
Peter Waher
But it is at the discretion of the XSF
Peter Waher
We are not the XSF; we are members of the XSF
Peter Waher
The board makes the decisions
Peter Waher
But the XSF (I assume) is a legal entity in its own right (legally)
MattJ
Ultimately it's at the discretion of the trademark holder, but we have an agreement with them that gives the XSF the ability to grant licenses under specific conditions
Peter Waher
Whatever we personally think has no significance, in legal terms.
Peter Waher
> Ultimately it’s at the discretion of the trademark holder, but we have an agreement with them that gives the XSF the ability to grant licenses under specific conditions
As it says on the page referenced above
Peter Waher
I.e. it is not "free"
pep.
This discussion is irrelevant for JoinJabber anyway, as you're not the ones affected by the possible copyright infrigment suit :P
MattJ
Peter Waher, I'm well aware what's on that page, my comments are based on the fact that you seem to think the XSF is more in control of the trademark than it actually is
singpolyma
Aaaaanyway, the "let's call the federated network the jabber network or the jabber compatible network" club meets on Wednesdays...
asterixhas left
asterixhas joined
Daniel
My hesitation to use the word Jabber doesn't come from the fact that it is old
Daniel
But from the _unclear_ trademark situation
goffihas left
goffihas joined
pep.
Daniel, yeah that's the issue for many.
Daniel
However I don't think it's really relevant anyway. What we desperately need is a good product. And then people can just use the name of the product to refer to the product. Like mastodon
Peter Waher
Just responding to this question:
> I’m wondering if “we” could push the “Jabber” term as a facade for the public. This is linked to what is currently discussed on the ML.
It was posted to the XSF Discussion room. If it’s restricted to “joinjabber”, is another matter. If it is a general question, XMPP is better than Jabber.
pep.
My position regarding the use of "Jabber", and its usage in joinjabber, is that it's a clear win when it comes to pronouncing it, and easier to remember than XMPP, and I'm the one taking legal risks so whatever
singpolyma
Indeed. My wife still calls it "talk to people in Conversations" even though she uses only gajim and Cheogram these days ;)
pep.
If there was a better word that isn't any of the two, I'd use it
Daniel
Yes no argument that xmpp is a terrible name
Maxencehas left
Maxencehas joined
edhelas
> Indeed. My wife still calls it "talk to people in Conversations" even though she uses only gajim and Cheogram these days ;)
Conversations is the new Jabber then ↺
pep.
We've had our share of bikeshedding sessions at JJ, and they don't lead anywhere
singpolyma
All trademark situations (and thus almost all English words) are at least somewhat unclear. But there are also pretty good limits to his a trademark can be enforced. There has to be a risk for commercial loss due to brand confusion and the entity must have a history of enforcing against certain uses
Daniel
> We've had our share of bikeshedding sessions at JJ, and they don't lead anywhere
That's what I'm trying to say. Ultimately one product will emerge and then we just use that products name. Or we don't see a product and then the discussion is pointless because users don't have a product to use
Menelhas joined
singpolyma
In the proposed cases there is no commercial confusion and the entity has a long history not only if non enforcement against these uses but even specifically allowing there uses✎
resolihas joined
singpolyma
In the proposed cases there is no commercial confusion and the entity has a long history not only if non enforcement against these uses but even specifically allowing these uses ✏
tbm16has left
Peter Waher
> All trademark situations (and thus almost all English words) are at least somewhat unclear. But there are also pretty good limits to his a trademark can be enforced. There has to be a risk for commercial loss due to brand confusion and the entity must have a history of enforcing against certain uses
This is only one perspective. There are others: For instance, we at IEEE cannot reference Jabber, since it’s a registered trademark. This comes from internal quirements at IEEE. Other similar oragnizations have similar rules.
pep.
Concretely, Cisco has no interest in shutting down something that is promoting "Jabber", when it's not clearly in conflict with their own product.
pep.
Also if they come for the money, they won't get much from me..
raucao
> Ultimately one product will emerge
like, jabber?
Daniel
Maybe
singpolyma
Peter Waher: oh sure, but there's no reason something like the IEEE would ever want to reference jabber anyway since it's a community thing. IEEE would talk about tech and the tech is xmpp
Daniel
Is jabber still being developed?
raucao
point is that it already emerged and had its name being used
singpolyma
> Is jabber still being developed?
The client named jabber still sees some releases
Peter Waher
singpolyma: Again: I thought the question was generic; Should “we” promote “XMPP” or “Jabber”. If it’s restricted to joinjabber, is another matter.
arcxihas joined
singpolyma
Speaking of "they all call it Mastodon" Mastodon is a registered trademark also
Peter Waher
“we” (again, not my words) here I assume to be the XSF. XSF should promote “XMPP” instead of “Jabber”, is my point of view.
singpolyma
Peter Waher: it's both. XMPP is the name of the tech/protocol
singpolyma
Like SMTP
pep.
Maybe the XSF shouldn't try to talk to end-users
singpolyma
Or HTTP
Daniel
> Maybe the XSF shouldn't try to talk to end-users
I actually don't think I should. But I'm pretty alone with that opinion
Daniel
And it's fine that other people disagree
Daniel
*it should
pep.
Because atm even if they don't (explicitely) try to, they're very much a starting point for many
singpolyma
Yeah, insofar are the XSF is a XEP publisher primarily then XMPP is the main word for the XSF of course✎
singpolyma
Yeah, insofar as the XSF is a XEP publisher primarily then XMPP is the main word for the XSF of course ✏
pep.
Daniel, dunno, one or the other. But using "XMPP" to onboard users is only confusing IMO
pep.
"We make XEPs, you can get your own XEP by creating an account and you'll have to choose a server on one of these lists, have fun" :P
pep.
Terrible experience
MattJ
Daniel, don't worry, you're not alone :)
Daniel
> Daniel, dunno, one or the other. But using "XMPP" to onboard users is only confusing IMO
I'm with you. If tried many times to just establish the term 'Conversations compatible'
goffihas left
goffihas joined
arcxihas left
archas joined
goffihas left
goffihas joined
paulhas left
Andrzejhas joined
flow
XMPP → OpenChat
pep.
It's not just chat!!
singpolymahas left
jcbrandhas left
flow
sure, and I am the first to point out that XMPP is a technology to get data from A to B at its core
flow
but everything else would just confuse users
jcbrandhas joined
singpolymahas joined
flow
So maybe, we do in the next iteration three RFCs
flow
XMPP core, XMPP im and OpenChat (based the previous two)
pep.
It doesn't have to be an IETF thing. It can just be a marketing name
flow
or, we do an OpenChat RFC right now, which describes that we require from a modern XMPP chat
flow
just like modernxmpp
singpolyma
If users are reading the RFCs they're not just users anymore :)
pep.
Indeed
pep.
That disqualifies them from having nice names entirely
flow
no, and I aggree that it doesn't have to be an RFC, but it also can't hurt to aim for RFC first
pep.
(/s)
singpolyma
They have great names. RFC1234
pep.
"Who is this rfc6120? How do I join it?"
flow
fwiw, RFC also have names (titles), not just numbers✎
singpolyma
For me this is a way more simple question. When I'm telling users about their address what do I call it? There are basically two options in use Jabber ID and XMPP Address
flow
fwiw, RFCs also have names (titles), not just numbers ✏
flow
yeah, and I wondered if we could establish the term OpenChat
paulhas joined
singpolyma
I'd rather not go back to the past and do the OpenNoun thing if that's a literal suggestion
flow
sure, you may dislike the name, but please propose better ones doing so :)
flow
fwiw, the OpenNoun thing has a good reputation for me
(I think that suggestion from me was only half serious, but I am not sure)
goffihas left
singpolyma
Could use the other half of the word and call it Wocky ;)
goffihas joined
flow
Being not a native speaker, I don't think I understand what appears to be a play on words and names
Kev
The JabberWocky is a Lewis Carroll poem.
Wojtekhas joined
flow
ahh, thanks :)
Kev
But the word 'jabber' (talking quickly) isn't derived from that.
arcxihas joined
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
asterixhas left
asterixhas joined
singpolymahas left
Calvinhas joined
singpolymahas joined
singpolyma
Yes, sorry, it was a bit of an oblique pun
flow
no worries, I was merely pointing out that I wasn't able to follow :)
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
con3has left
Menelhas left
asterixhas left
asterixhas joined
antranigvhas joined
atomicwatchhas left
atomicwatchhas joined
atomicwatchhas left
atomicwatchhas joined
atomicwatchhas left
tbm16has joined
atomicwatchhas joined
atomicwatchhas left
atomicwatchhas joined
atomicwatchhas left
atomicwatchhas joined
atomicwatchhas left
singpolymahas left
atomicwatchhas joined
atomicwatchhas left
atomicwatchhas joined
atomicwatchhas left
tbm16has left
atomicwatchhas joined
archas joined
singpolymahas joined
tbm16has joined
resolihas left
Menelhas joined
goffihas left
goffihas joined
tbm16has left
Andrzejhas left
Andrzejhas joined
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
Menelhas left
Menelhas joined
jgarthas left
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
resolihas joined
petrescatraianhas left
goffihas left
goffihas joined
mentos124has joined
mentos124
im starting to feel like open source is the "_new normal_" you know, like a new open source project is created every day or two
mentos124
tried to do italic font lol
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
Andrzejhas left
Vaulorhas left
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
Vaulorhas joined
mentos124has left
moparisthebest
edhelas: I dislike promoting Cisco's client so much I automated fixing joinjabber in the hopes they'd point joinxmpp there https://joinxmpp.moparisthe.best/ :P
Steve Killehas left
Steve Killehas joined
snowhas joined
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Link Mauvehas left
oshnhas left
Titihas left
Andrzejhas joined
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
mentos124has joined
mentos124has left
asterixhas left
asterixhas joined
mentos124has joined
Andrzejhas left
mentos124has left
Martinhas left
praveenhas left
praveenhas joined
nobodyhas left
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
mentos124has joined
mentos124has left
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
you mean webex? /s
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
thats the only cisco thing i know
asterixhas left
asterixhas joined
wurstsalat
MSavoritias (fae,ve): nope, there is Cisco Webex, but also Cisco Jabber. Their website for reference: https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/unified-communications/jabber/index.html
atomicwatchhas left
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
there is?? that looks kind of like slack. heh never seen it before
mentos124has joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
asterixhas left
asterixhas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Martinhas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
moparisthebest
MSavoritias (fae,ve): it's the first result when I search Jabber, which is one of the top reasons I hate the term :)
Wojtekhas left
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
never searched it /shrug
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobihas joined
Mikaelahas joined
Tobihas left
Tobiashas left
Andrzejhas joined
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
marc0shas left
marc0shas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
resolihas left
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobihas left
Tobiashas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Wojtekhas joined
Steve Killehas left
Steve Killehas joined
oshnhas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobihas left
Tobiashas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Andrzejhas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Andrzejhas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobihas left
Tobiashas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
gooyahas left
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
resolihas joined
jgarthas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Vidakhas left
Rebeldhas left
Vidakhas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
my-namehas left
my-namehas joined
tbm16has joined
SteveFhas left
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobihas left
Tobiashas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Wojtekhas left
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
singpolyma
moparisthebest: we just gotta get the Google juice back ;)
Andrzejhas left
Andrzejhas joined
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
proper SEO and outreach
MSavoritias (fae,ve)
seems on topic with the mailing list
Half-Shothas left
homebeachhas left
Matthewhas left
uhoreghas left
Half-Shothas joined
Matthewhas joined
homebeachhas joined
uhoreghas joined
moparisthebest
I only use ddg
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
moparisthebest
Though yes I would like to see joinjabber outrank Cisco jabber in search results just to watch the resulting reaction from Cisco 🍿
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
Steve Killehas left
Tobiashas left
Tobihas left
Tobihas joined
Tobiashas joined
gooyahas joined
singpolyma
🙄
resolihas left
Steve Killehas joined
tbm16has left
goffihas left
goffihas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
matthiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Dele Olajidehas left
Tobiashas left
Tobiashas joined
Andrzejhas left
Andrzejhas joined
moparisthebest
My impression of 2023 Cisco is a company of mostly lawyers, none of whom know XMPP or the XSF exist, is that wrong?