XSF Discussion - 2023-03-09

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  313. Daniel

    what does an extend MAM metadata response look like for empty archives?

  314. Daniel

    and is it different from disabled archived?

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  316. MattJ

    It's on my specs to-do to clarify this: https://logs.xmpp.org/jdev/2023-01-16?p=h#2023-01-16-3eedf318e3ba95f6

  317. Zash

    MUST? Prosody violates this then.

  318. MattJ

    In which cases?

  319. Zash

    Empty archive

  320. MattJ


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  322. Zash

    It would return just <metadata/>

  323. MattJ

    I think we just need to clarify "if the archive is not empty"

  324. Daniel

    empty metadata sounds good to me though

  325. MattJ

    I'll write that email now

  326. MattJ

    or... just get back into XEP mode and write a PR

  327. Daniel

    I think it should also spec that specific case too. instead of returning an error or so

  328. Zash

    one could possibly argue for item-not-found as well

  329. Daniel

    not merly allow empty metadata but say thats how it's supposed to be i mean

  330. MattJ

    As I noted in the above chat, I prefer empty to error, partly because <metadata> is also used in bind2

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  333. Daniel

    yes. and we should make it distinct from archive is broken or not enabled

  334. MattJ

    Right, what does it mean for an archive to be "disabled"?

  335. MattJ

    Wouldn't you just have service-unavailable then?

  336. MattJ

    and no disco feature

  337. MattJ

    and no <metadata> in bind2

  338. Daniel

    mhhh I don’t know. server supports it but user has it disabled

  339. Zash

    broken? internal-server-error?

  340. Daniel

    that would probably still have the feature?

  341. Zash

    disabled in user preferences?

  342. MattJ

    internal-server-error is wrong if it's intentional (internal-server-error could imply that trying again might work)

  343. Daniel

    anyway. i haven’t full thought through all the edge cases yet. but I think we already concluded that empty element is the right way to go; independently of how corner cases are handled

  344. Zash

    > archive is broken or not enabled clarify what those terms mean here?

  345. Daniel

    but I was just thinking that on empty metadata will start my MAM-id tracking on the client side. and any sort of error would lead me to try again on the next login

  346. Daniel

    yes i mean disabled by user preference

  347. MattJ

    I think it should just be missing from disco features then

  348. MattJ

    Those are per-user already

  349. Zash

    What would be missing?

  350. MattJ


  351. Zash

    Does that mean disco changes on preferences?

  352. MattJ

    Otherwise I'm not sure what the difference is (or how to signal) between "not supported so it doesn't work" or "disabled so it doesn't work"

  353. MattJ

    or why that distinction is useful to have

  354. Zash

    Buuut doesn't disabled just mean no _new_ messages are added to the archive, but there still could be some that you could query for?

  355. Zash

    I don't think we defined that disabling archiving would wipe it (yet)

  356. MattJ

    I don't think we want to go down that road

  357. MattJ

    We could, but I don't see a use-case for it

  358. MattJ

    Removing disco features when MAM is disabled is reasonable and backwards-compatible

  359. MattJ

    Because claiming to support MAM when actually no MAM operations will succeed is silly

  360. Zash

    So disabled := default==never AND always:empty() AND never:empty() ?

  361. MattJ


  362. MattJ

    I don't like that options protocol though, and I'd like to retire it

  363. Zash

    in XEP-0441 terms

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  392. pep.

    if disco is removed from my account, how do I know I can reenable it? Because it's supported by the server?

  393. pep.

    if disco is removed from my account, how do I know I can reenable it? Because it's enabled on the server?

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  400. MattJ

    You re-enable it through whatever protocol you disabled it

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  404. pep.

    who is "you"

  405. MattJ

    the account owner

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  407. MattJ

    The same "my" from your message

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  410. pep.

    I mean which client. How does the client know

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  413. MattJ

    The same way it knew how to disable it

  414. pep.

    Ok I'm missing something that seems obvious to you. The disco feature is different?

  415. Zash

    But if that way goes away if you disable it, how does it know it's still there?

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  418. MattJ

    What goes away?

  419. MattJ

    The configuration protocol?

  420. pep.

    The disco feature

  421. MattJ

    Only the MAM disco feature would go away

  422. pep.

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0441.html there doesn't seem to be a disco feature here

  423. MattJ

    Oh, XEP-0441

  424. MattJ

    Two things:

  425. MattJ

    1) > I don't like that options protocol though, and I'd like to retire it

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  427. MattJ

    2) It's not clear that setting it to 'Never' and having nobody in your 'always' list is the same as actually disabling MAM entirely

  428. MattJ

    Nothing has changed in that regard

  429. pep.

    But that doesn't conflict with what I'm asking :p

  430. MattJ

    I don't think you can fully "disable MAM" via XEP-0441, I don't think it can/should remove the disco feature (because then yes, you lose the ability to configure MAM)

  431. pep.


  432. MattJ

    I don't think XEP-0441 should continue to exist, and I intend to remove it from Prosody in the future

  433. pep.

    So what is the "configuration protocol" you're talking about

  434. MattJ

    It doesn't yet exist

  435. pep.


  436. MattJ

    Prosody doesn't allow you to disable MAM on a per-account basis, or remove the disco feature

  437. pep.

    No wonder I was configured

  438. MattJ

    As far as I'm concerned, all this is hypothetical

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  443. MattJ

    Rather than the options XEP-0441 gives you, I'd rather switch to something that allows someone to control the retention settings, and remove support for the per-JID stuff (which has the ability to break things in unexpected ways)

  444. MattJ

    We also need to add an in-band way for someone to purge their archive

  445. Zash

    Also might let you do funky things like include MUC PMs in MAM :D

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  606. Daniel

    MattJ, just for my understanding, mam’s before-id and after-id are inclusive (the stanza referenced as after-id is included in the results) buf rsm after/before are exclusive, no?

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  609. Zash


  610. Zash

    I thought before-id and after-id was a trick to let you have both after and before in RSM

  611. Zash

    Thus same semantics

  612. Zash

    Except for the ordering implications of before

  613. Daniel

    the XEP says they are (in some scenarios) interchangable

  614. Daniel

    but what i'm trying to get at is that i'm suspecting they maybe aren’t

  615. Daniel

    after-id: A stanza ID indicating the first message in the query results.

  616. Daniel

    this means inclusive, no?

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  618. MattJ

    Umm, I think that is wrong

  619. Daniel

    i mean they kinda have to be inclusive. because when I retrieve a metadata and then do a query for after-id=metadata.start and before-id=metadata.end I want start and end in the result

  620. Daniel


  621. Zash

    How did you come to that kind of reasoning?

  622. Daniel

    but rsm because it is a paging thing needs to be exclusive or otherwise page A and page b would have overlapping entries

  623. MattJ

    To fetch everything you don't specify any before/after

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  626. Daniel

    so the intent is that they are exclusive?

  627. MattJ


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  631. Daniel

    ok; suppose I’m catching up. I know my last local MAM id is `23`. I retrieve the metadata (or get it via band2) and learn the the current end is `42`. then I’m doing a query for anything between 23-42

  632. Daniel

    i want the 42 to be included, no?

  633. MattJ

    You do. You run a query for after-id=23

  634. MattJ

    You don't include before-id

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  636. Daniel

    what does that metadata thing do then?

  637. Zash

    But then you may run into live messages?

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  640. MattJ

    The metadata thing is informational, for example it can be used to determine when there are gaps

  641. Zash

    Can it?

  642. MattJ

    Since start/end are implicit in any query, you don't need to actually insert those things into filters

  643. Zash

    Due to being away for a long time, so the server expired previous overlap?

  644. MattJ


  645. Daniel

    ok... I thought it could be used to put an upper bound to my catch-up query

  646. MattJ

    You would use your last local id for that, no?

  647. Daniel

    that’s the lower bound

  648. Zash

    So, If the <start> is *not* in your local database, then you have a gap. Probably.

  649. tmolitor

    Daniel is ordering the bounds by timestamp in ascending order ;)

  650. Zash

    That is *wrong*. Don't do that.

  651. Zash

    Timestamps are bad, mkay!

  652. MattJ

    I think it was a comment on Daniel's use of "upper" and "lower" in this conversation (which is logical), hopefully not on database schema

  653. Daniel

    ok forget upper and lower. but I thought i could limit it on both sides

  654. tmolitor

    yes, like MattJ said :)

  655. Zash

    You could query with after-id=your last local message, <{rsm}before/> and page backwards until you don't want to anymore

  656. Zash

    That would get you the latest new messages first

  657. Zash

    Except thanks to OMEMO, that's totally useless, innit?

  658. Daniel

    my question isn’t about the order of messages

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  661. Zash

    Daniel, upper bound on number of messages to retrieve? that's what I answered. query backwards from most recent. Then you can bound the result at any point by stopping.

  662. MattJ

    No, that's also not what Daniel is asking for

  663. Zash

    Then I have no idea what anyone is talking about

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  665. Zash

    And I probably won't understand without a whiteboard

  666. MattJ

    It's just that there is no way to form a MAM query that says "get me the archive contents as they were when you sent me the <metadata>"

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  668. Zash

    No inclusive id fields no

  669. Zash

    except ids

  670. MattJ

    You have to have an open-ended query, and as you put it earlier, deal with the possibility that you might "run into live messages"

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  673. MattJ

    But you can just stop querying after you find the message with the id

  674. MattJ

    The end id, I mean

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  676. Zash

    or do a query based on the meta, then ids={start, end}

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  681. MattJ

    Yes, that's one way :)

  682. MattJ

    Pity we didn't define 'ids' to be additive

  683. MattJ

    That would solve this relatively cleanly

  684. singpolyma

    Sortable uuids!!

  685. MattJ

    and it doesn't generally make sense to combine it with other filters

  686. Zash

    singpolyma, orthogonal, but nice

  687. MattJ

    Yes, if designing from scratch I probably would have mandated sortable ids

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  767. Guus

    https://xmpp.org/schemas/ does not appear to hold a schema that defines the http://jabber.org/protocol/compress/exi namespace, although https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0322.html links to http://xmpp.org/schemas/exi.xsd (and even has a byte size and hash for that file). Does anyone know where that file disappeared to?

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  770. Guus

    I have a project that contains a XEP-0322-01.xsd, but that's clearly outdated.

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  774. Ge0rG

    something something xmpp protocol registry

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  777. Guus


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  803. Guus

    https://github.com/joachimlindborg/XMPP-EXI/blob/master/exi.xsd seems more up to date - but I'm not sure if it is the most recent version

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  808. Guus

    It's not of a size that's equal to what's listed in the XEP. :/

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  851. Peter Waher

    The contents of the file would be what is available in section 7 of the XEP.

  852. Peter Waher

    Perhaps white-space might be different however

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  872. Guus

    Thanks Peter. Sucky for hashing, but at least i've got the namespace and element names right this time ... :)

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  876. Guus

    Peter Waher: am I right to assume that https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0322.html#defaultSchema should not be referencing 'xep-0322-01.xsd' but 'exi.xsd' instead (as that's the name used in the XSD listing)?

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  918. Alex

    sorry guys I was stuck in traffic, will start the member meeting shortly

  919. Alex

    just need to update the agenda quickly

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  929. Alex

    okay, anyone ready?

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  931. Guus


  932. neox is here '-'

  933. nicola

    Here I am

  934. Alex


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  936. Alex bangs the gavel

  937. Alex

    here is our agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2023-03-09

  938. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

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  941. Alex

    as you can see 41 members voted via memberbot. So we have a quorum

  942. Peter Waher

    Guus: It should reference a snapshot directory with agreed-upon default versions of schemas. In the current version, the -01.xsd corresponds to the exi.xsd file. The extension takes into consideration the gradual evolution of extensions and corresponding schemas. But you’re correct: We can remove the -01 from the file name in the schemaLocation specification.

  943. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

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  947. Alex

    new and returning members, you can see all the applications here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q1_2023

  948. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting

  949. Alex

    any XSF member here who has not voted yet and wants to do so now?

  950. Alex

    Memberbot is still online

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  952. Alex

    looks like there is none

  953. atomicwatch has joined

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  955. Alex

    then I will shutdown memberbot and start counting

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  967. Alex

    still counting ...

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  977. Alex

    getting there, final check ;-)

  978. Arne


  979. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  980. atomicwatch has joined

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  982. Alex

    when you reload the page at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2023-03-09 you can see the results

  983. Alex

    except of 1 candidate everyone got accepted

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  985. Alex

    congrats to everyone, big list of candidates this quarter

  986. Seve

    Congratulations, I count on you when my reapplication time comes! Thank you Alex!

  987. Arne

    Great, thanks Alex!

  988. nicola

    Thank you very much @Alex and all. I am honored

  989. neox

    Congrats to every newcomers and reappliers 😊

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  991. Alex

    welcome nicola

  992. Mikaela has joined

  993. neox

    nicola: welcome !

  994. Alex

    5) Any Other Business?

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  999. Alex

    looks like thre is none

  1000. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

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  1002. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

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  1012. Alex

    someone needs to second

  1013. Seve does

  1014. neox

    Alex: I second '-'

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  1017. Alex gangs the gavel

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  1020. Alex

    thanks everyone

  1021. neox

    Thank you Alex !

  1022. nicola

    Thank you @Alex !!

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  1025. Arne

    Thanks everyone!

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  1038. moparisthebest

    Thanks all

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