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MattJ
12:03:01
Since we're in XEP-0060 bug-fixing mode, there are a couple of other outstanding issues I'd like to fix
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MattJ
12:03:34
Well, at least one of them just requires some informational text I think
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MattJ
12:04:28
I'd like to have a section that just explains the data model. It took me years to realize it's an ordered key-value store. Once that became clear, everything started to make more sense.
MattJ
12:06:29
The second problem is that the spec isn't clear enough about whether publishing an item with the same id as an existing item modifies the order or not
MattJ
12:07:34
I brought it up on the list here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-August/035311.html
and the final word was here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-January/035606.html
MattJ
12:07:49
So I think we need to get this conclusion into the XEP
MattJ
12:08:36
XEP-0413 solves the issue mostly for clients, but once we start talking about what happens to items when the node is full, it becomes important
pep.
12:08:50
Yes, ordering of items is unclear, and I think Movim (and probably Libervia) have been bitten by this before
pep.
12:09:15
Yes, also why I explicitely said "creation date", but I'm not exactly sure what to do here
pep.
12:09:40
In your mail you use the wording "oldest", but we need to specify what it means first then
MattJ
12:10:09
Ah, I'd overlooked that detail
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MattJ
12:15:16
As far as I'm concerned, it already has a meaning that is implied throughout the XEP but unfortunately never explicitly stated
MattJ
12:16:43
ralphm (author with most implementation experience) seems to agree with this
pep.
12:17:20
Would be great to "clarify" nonethtless ✎
MattJ
12:17:33
That does of course mean that XEP-0060 doesn't currently suit cases where you want to be able to modify items without affecting the order
pep.
12:17:38
Would be great to "clarify" ✏
MattJ
12:17:54
Unless you ignore that and just use XEP-0413
pep.
12:18:14
Wait I missed the implied meaning of "oldest" then?
pep.
12:18:21
That's by creation date?
MattJ
12:18:25
Which works as long as you always use it, and never engage the server's "expire oldest" functionality or whatever
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MattJ
12:19:22
First: don't say creation date, nothing about pubsub ordering is to do with dates/times :)
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MattJ
12:19:40
The order is the order in which items are published
MattJ
12:20:07
That the only operations XEP-0060 really has: publishing and retracting
pep.
12:20:12
That's.. more or less what I meant. There's always a date even if it's not explicited :p
pep.
12:20:25
Ok
MattJ
12:20:26
Well, if you look in Prosody's data store you won't find one
MattJ
12:20:42
or maybe you will these days, I'm not sure
MattJ
12:20:52
But even if it's there, we don't use it for ordering
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MattJ
12:21:11
and it would be the timestamp of when the item was published
pep.
12:23:20
Yes. Ok so that's the only ordering that's assumed in 0060. It'd be great to explicit it yeah.
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pep.
12:23:40
And then clearup what happens when an item with an existing ID is published
MattJ
12:24:34
Yeah, I think once we get the data model clear, it becomes easier to talk about how to make different use-cases fit
MattJ
12:25:02
Right now we have implementations that accidentally differ in how XEP-0060 ordering works, and that just makes everything harder because we're starting from different places
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singpolyma
12:43:52
So you're saying updates re-order the new item to the front? I guess that makes sense since anyone doing a catch-up fetch needs to get it to be aware of the update. Just means really REALLY no one should ever render a UI based on the returned order without locally sorting
MattJ
12:44:48
That depends on what the UI is for, but many cases wil require local sorting or XEP-0413 (server sorting) ✎
MattJ
12:44:55
That depends on what the UI is for, but many cases will require local sorting or XEP-0413 (server sorting) ✏
Peter Waher
12:45:28
Order of items should be part of the client request. Different clients & use cases have different requirements and need of order. As has been mentioned already: publishing time, when ordering a timeline, or last update time, when reviewing what has changes since last. ✎
MattJ
12:45:31
For a blog, for example, you don't want to bring a post to the front just because you fixed a typo
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Peter Waher
12:46:23
Order of items should be part of the client request. Different clients & use cases have different requirements and need of order. As has been mentioned already: publishing time, when ordering a timeline, or last update time, when reviewing what has changes since last. (If parameter omitted in request, a default value should be specified) ✏
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MattJ
12:51:22
Another option, instead of XEP-0413, would be to pursue per-node configuration of the server-side order
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singpolyma
12:52:59
I don't think local sorting is a huge burden. We already generally need to do it even for chat messages due to delay etc, which has this same semantic in MAM
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MattJ
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Well, whether it's a huge burden partly depends on the number of items in the node
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singpolyma
12:53:57
Even for a blog, you do want subscribers to become aware of the edit, so bring to front is good. So long as they know to sort in client
Peter Waher
12:54:11
Thanks för reference. Schema in XEP-0413 needs enumeration for possible order by values.
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I assume that ejabberd (which does not bring items to the front) still sends notifications to subscribers
singpolyma
12:54:57
Yes, but pubsub notifications are not reliable
singpolyma
12:55:06
And not stored in MAM.
singpolyma
12:55:20
On purpose because you can always just fetch latest items to catch up
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MattJ
12:57:31
Then it depends whether you have a thin client or not
singpolyma
12:58:39
Yes. Thin client scenario is what 0413 is for I guess
MattJ
12:58:40
A thin client rendering the blog would fetch items on demand and they'd just be up to date, but a client that synchronizes to a local store would indeed need to catch every change
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Test
Trung
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TOAST !
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