XSF Discussion - 2023-03-17


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  467. MattJ

    Since we're in XEP-0060 bug-fixing mode, there are a couple of other outstanding issues I'd like to fix

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  469. MattJ

    Well, at least one of them just requires some informational text I think

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  471. MattJ

    I'd like to have a section that just explains the data model. It took me years to realize it's an ordered key-value store. Once that became clear, everything started to make more sense.

  472. MattJ

    The second problem is that the spec isn't clear enough about whether publishing an item with the same id as an existing item modifies the order or not

  473. MattJ

    I brought it up on the list here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-August/035311.html and the final word was here: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2019-January/035606.html

  474. MattJ

    So I think we need to get this conclusion into the XEP

  475. MattJ

    XEP-0413 solves the issue mostly for clients, but once we start talking about what happens to items when the node is full, it becomes important

  476. pep.

    Yes, ordering of items is unclear, and I think Movim (and probably Libervia) have been bitten by this before

  477. pep.

    Yes, also why I explicitely said "creation date", but I'm not exactly sure what to do here

  478. pep.

    In your mail you use the wording "oldest", but we need to specify what it means first then

  479. MattJ

    Ah, I'd overlooked that detail

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  482. MattJ

    As far as I'm concerned, it already has a meaning that is implied throughout the XEP but unfortunately never explicitly stated

  483. MattJ

    ralphm (author with most implementation experience) seems to agree with this

  484. pep.

    Would be great to "clarify" nonethtless

  485. MattJ

    That does of course mean that XEP-0060 doesn't currently suit cases where you want to be able to modify items without affecting the order

  486. pep.

    Would be great to "clarify"

  487. MattJ

    Unless you ignore that and just use XEP-0413

  488. pep.

    Wait I missed the implied meaning of "oldest" then?

  489. pep.

    That's by creation date?

  490. MattJ

    Which works as long as you always use it, and never engage the server's "expire oldest" functionality or whatever

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  493. MattJ

    First: don't say creation date, nothing about pubsub ordering is to do with dates/times :)

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  496. MattJ

    The order is the order in which items are published

  497. MattJ

    That the only operations XEP-0060 really has: publishing and retracting

  498. pep.

    That's.. more or less what I meant. There's always a date even if it's not explicited :p

  499. pep.

    Ok

  500. MattJ

    Well, if you look in Prosody's data store you won't find one

  501. MattJ

    or maybe you will these days, I'm not sure

  502. MattJ

    But even if it's there, we don't use it for ordering

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  504. MattJ

    and it would be the timestamp of when the item was published

  505. pep.

    Yes. Ok so that's the only ordering that's assumed in 0060. It'd be great to explicit it yeah.

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  507. pep.

    And then clearup what happens when an item with an existing ID is published

  508. MattJ

    Yeah, I think once we get the data model clear, it becomes easier to talk about how to make different use-cases fit

  509. MattJ

    Right now we have implementations that accidentally differ in how XEP-0060 ordering works, and that just makes everything harder because we're starting from different places

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  520. singpolyma

    So you're saying updates re-order the new item to the front? I guess that makes sense since anyone doing a catch-up fetch needs to get it to be aware of the update. Just means really REALLY no one should ever render a UI based on the returned order without locally sorting

  521. MattJ

    That depends on what the UI is for, but many cases wil require local sorting or XEP-0413 (server sorting)

  522. MattJ

    That depends on what the UI is for, but many cases will require local sorting or XEP-0413 (server sorting)

  523. Peter Waher

    Order of items should be part of the client request. Different clients & use cases have different requirements and need of order. As has been mentioned already: publishing time, when ordering a timeline, or last update time, when reviewing what has changes since last.

  524. MattJ

    For a blog, for example, you don't want to bring a post to the front just because you fixed a typo

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  527. Peter Waher

    Order of items should be part of the client request. Different clients & use cases have different requirements and need of order. As has been mentioned already: publishing time, when ordering a timeline, or last update time, when reviewing what has changes since last. (If parameter omitted in request, a default value should be specified)

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  529. MattJ

    Another option, instead of XEP-0413, would be to pursue per-node configuration of the server-side order

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  533. singpolyma

    I don't think local sorting is a huge burden. We already generally need to do it even for chat messages due to delay etc, which has this same semantic in MAM

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  536. MattJ

    Well, whether it's a huge burden partly depends on the number of items in the node

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  538. singpolyma

    Even for a blog, you do want subscribers to become aware of the edit, so bring to front is good. So long as they know to sort in client

  539. Peter Waher

    Thanks för reference. Schema in XEP-0413 needs enumeration for possible order by values.

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  543. MattJ

    I assume that ejabberd (which does not bring items to the front) still sends notifications to subscribers

  544. singpolyma

    Yes, but pubsub notifications are not reliable

  545. singpolyma

    And not stored in MAM.

  546. singpolyma

    On purpose because you can always just fetch latest items to catch up

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  550. MattJ

    Then it depends whether you have a thin client or not

  551. singpolyma

    Yes. Thin client scenario is what 0413 is for I guess

  552. MattJ

    A thin client rendering the blog would fetch items on demand and they'd just be up to date, but a client that synchronizes to a local store would indeed need to catch every change

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    Test

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    TOAST !

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