XSF Discussion - 2023-06-13

  1. larma

    I don't know any other messenger offering that. Reply is not the same as quote and not a direct replacement of it.

  2. larma

    When you send emails, you're always replying to the whole email. You might be only quoting a part of the email, but the reply is always to the full email. And emails are far more likely to contain two independent topics that need separate replies than instant messaging.

  3. lovetox

    So how do I reply to a message and quote a certain passage?

  4. lovetox

    My idea would be to simply drop the fallback body

  5. lovetox

    Only then the XEP is really what it says in the preamble, a improvement over quoting in attaching more metadata

  6. lovetox

    Hm we can simply add quotes to a reply just will look funny in old clients

  7. lovetox

    For some reason I was under the impression a reply does not allow quoting

  8. singpolyma

    If you add quotes in a reply it's likely to render semi-duplicated in clients, but of course there is not specified UI that's just what I've seen people doing so far

  9. MattJ

    Maybe worth adding a 'quote' boolean to influence the UI?

  10. singpolyma

    One could do things like "if there is a reply fallback in the body assume we can show the quote"

  11. singpolyma

    Or users just get used to what their client does and compensate their workflow per usual, I dunno

  12. singpolyma

    I say 80% of users only ever do full quote, but there's a larger than expected number doing advanced stuff

  13. lovetox

    i dont need a boolean, i would not change my UI if there are quotes in the reply

  14. lovetox

    i think its not hard to make a UI that makes a distinct difference between what message the reply is to, and a quote inside the reply

  15. MattJ

    lovetox, so I assume that means you think the quote should always be in the payload in full if it's a full quote?

  16. MattJ

    and a client should never display the original message automatically in the case of a reply

  17. lovetox

    not sure i understand you correctly, current XEP-461 sepecifies that the whole content of the replied message is in the body as a fallback

  18. lovetox

    thats not optional

  19. MattJ

    Ignore fallbacks for now, I'm talking about two clients which support XEP-0461

  20. lovetox

    I would expect a client that supports replies, to render in some way the message which was replied to

  21. lovetox

    but not in the form that a user would think its a "quote"

  22. Zash

    Didn't we have a references xep doing pointers to suvstrings?

  23. Zash

    Didn't we have a references xep doing pointers to substrings?

  24. MattJ

    lovetox, well, in many popular messaging apps that's exactly how it's implemented

  25. MattJ


  26. lovetox

    yes i think this was understood, the question was if in the replies now quotes of parts of the replied message are allowed, and how they are rendered

  27. MattJ

    Other messaging apps control the code on the sending and receiving side. In XMPP we don't, and what we don't want is client A sending a reply with an embedded quote, and client B rendering replies with a full quote above the body (as in the WhatsApp screenshot)

  28. MattJ

    Yes, and the suggestion was to just use normal quote markup for that

  29. lovetox


  30. MattJ

    But if a client renders the full quoted message anyway, that will be weird

  31. lovetox

    how is it weird? why assume messages are *always* rendererd in full

  32. lovetox

    i would only plan to render one or two lines of the original messae

  33. lovetox

    i would only plan to render one or two lines of the original message

  34. lovetox

    of course the user can jump to the message to read in full

  35. MattJ

    It's weird because user of client B will see the full quote, followed by duplicate partial quotes of the same message

  36. MattJ

    Okay, with your proposal they see many partial quotes of a message :)

  37. lovetox

    only if the sending user wants to comment on individual parts?

  38. MattJ


  39. lovetox

    should i disallow a user to respond to indivdual sentences of a big message?

  40. MattJ

    How would you do that?

  41. MattJ

    They can always type '>' followed by some text

  42. MattJ

    copy/paste or whatever

  43. lovetox

    i dont want to do it, you said it looks weird when there are quotes in a reply

  44. lovetox

    i thought you had a idea what to do against it or how to do it better

  45. MattJ

    My earlier suggestion was that the sending client can indicate if the reply should display as a full quote or not

  46. MattJ

    Based on what UI it presented to the sending user

  47. lovetox

    im not a fan of these ideas that i saw a few times

  48. MattJ

    If the sending client puts the quote (possibly partial) in the body, then it would tell the receiving client not to render a separate quote

  49. lovetox

    where some sending user trys to determine how a UI should look like on a receiving client

  50. lovetox

    1. the sending user does not care in almost all cases

  51. lovetox

    2. the sending user has no idea where the message will be received

  52. lovetox

    Its like the "inline" element in 0447

  53. lovetox

    its perfectly useless, i would never even use this information as a receiving client

  54. MattJ

    Ensuring clients agree on the semantics of messages would be the primary reason we are all here :)

  55. lovetox

    i will not let *other* clients determine how my UI looks

  56. MattJ

    I'm not telling you how your UI should look

  57. lovetox

    especially in a decentralized env, where *everybody* can write a client

  58. MattJ

    It's basically a flag that says "there is quote embedded in the body"

  59. MattJ

    If you want to ignore that and render the quote twice, that's up to you

  60. MattJ

    But it would look weird and confusing

  61. lovetox

    ?! i render what the user sends, and if he quotes 3 times the same sentence

  62. lovetox

    then i render it 3 times

  63. MattJ

    Sure. If they quote it 3 times, that's what they expect the recipient to see

  64. MattJ

    If they quote it one time, they expect the recipient to see it one time

  65. MattJ

    But you will render it two times

  66. lovetox

    ok i think now i know what you are getting at

  67. MattJ

    It all depends on whether "reply" is an implicit quote or not

  68. lovetox

    no a full quote will only sent in the fallback body

  69. lovetox

    only partial quotes will be added to the body

  70. MattJ

    So you will render a full quote, and then partial quotes, and you're happy with that?

  71. lovetox

    reply is a full quote in my opinion

  72. lovetox

    how can i not be happy with that, if the user wants to add partial quotes how am i to remove them?

  73. lovetox

    then the context of his text is lost

  74. MattJ

    I'm not saying you should remove them. It would be better to remove the automatic full quote, so they can just quote what they want.

  75. lovetox

    i think this is something, thats better discussed if you saw the UI

  76. lovetox

    the full quote is necessary its in the standard its called the fallback body

  77. lovetox

    So yeah the full quote will always be in the body

  78. lovetox

    and afterwards, follow partial quotes if the user wants

  79. MattJ

    At no point have I been talking about the fallback case

  80. MattJ

    I prefer to focus on what we want first, and then get a nice fallback after

  81. lovetox

    yes attaching the reply servs as full quote

  82. lovetox

    no need to add it to the body again (ignoring the fallback case)

  83. MattJ

    So there is no way to do *only* a partial quote

  84. MattJ

    and we're back to the start :)

  85. lovetox

    i dont see it like that

  86. MattJ

    Unless... > yes attaching the reply servs as full quote we change this ^

  87. lovetox

    the problem is that you see a reply and a full quote as equivalent UI wise

  88. lovetox

    but as i said in the beginning thats not a must

  89. lovetox

    i plan to let a reply look different than a quote

  90. lovetox

    its only a reference, and maybe i display part of that reference, but the user will know this is only a reference

  91. lovetox

    while a quote will look different and the user will be aware here someone quotes a specific part of a sentence

  92. lovetox

    and not just gives a reference so i know the context of his reply

  93. lovetox

    i agree the difference is subtle, but i atleast will try to make that subtle difference evident in the UI

  94. lovetox

    of course it will be more evident, when you reply to bigger messages, which i definitly will not show in "full"

  95. lovetox

    and yes this maybe is only a thing for desktop clients

  96. lovetox

    on smartphones this is all the same, as nobody writes long messages anyway

  97. lovetox

    or starts quoting specific parts of sentences

  98. lovetox

    its all to cumbersome on a phone, *if* even possible

  99. Trung

    > quoting specific parts of senten … look i just did 😁

  100. moparisthebest

    > on smartphones Lol everything is a phone now isn't it? People run gajim on their phones

  101. Alex

    looks like XSF wesite builds on Github hang and don't complete

  102. lovetox

    larma, regarding XEP-0444 Reactions, why did you choose for direct conversations origin-id or message-id as reaction-id. We could simply use stanza-id there too or not? We react to messages we receive, and stanza-id is always injected by the server.

  103. cal0pteryx

    Alex, thanks, should be ok now (just a hiccup)