XSF Discussion - 2023-07-06

  1. arc

    God morgen

  2. stpeter

    hi @arc

  3. arc


  4. stpeter


  5. stpeter

    T-2 minutes until the XSF Board meeting. Agenda at https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board-Meeting-2023-07-06 for those who are interested. :-)

  6. Kev

    I'm going out, so can't gatecrash this time, you lucky people.

  7. stpeter


  8. ralphm bangs gavel

  9. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  10. ralphm

    Hi all!

  11. MattJ


  12. ralphm

    Who do we have?

  13. MattJ


  14. arc


  15. stpeter


  16. ralphm

    Good. Any additional items for the agenda?

  17. stpeter

    I added an item for a finance update.

  18. ralphm

    (other than what's on https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board-Meeting-2023-07-06)

  19. ralphm

    Oh my, Gajim is eating all CPU. Not sure what's going on.

  20. stpeter

    (I was chatting with Eddie a little while ago so perhaps he’s on his way, too.)

  21. ralphm

    Let's just start, he can jump in.

  22. stpeter


  23. ralphm


  24. ralphm

    I've not followed this topic. Is there anything to report?

  25. stpeter

    I have nothing new to report since the last update.

  26. stpeter

    AIUI some folks are working on an MLS protoXEP, but I haven’t pinged them in a while.

  27. stpeter

    Perhaps MattJ knows more.

  28. stpeter

    Our general conclusion from last time was “good luck to the MIMI WG and MLS seems promising so we’ll work on a XEP about that.”

  29. MattJ

    I don't know if there has been progress on the MLS front, but we should check in with the folk working on that

  30. stpeter

    MattJ: I can do that.

  31. MattJ


  32. ralphm

    Is anyone planning on attending the IETF 117 sessions (remotely)?

  33. MattJ

    On the MIMI front I don't think there is anything significant to report. There are some new documents published which are worth a look - identifying features of different data models for chat systems

  34. ralphm

    Yeah, I am trying to free up some time to look at those.

  35. MattJ

    I'm not planning to attend IETF 117 in person, but it's worth figuring out if *someone* wants to attend. I'm already planning to be in the US next week, and I don't think I'd be able to stay longer or fly back

  36. MattJ

    Attending remotely should be possible, however

  37. arc


  38. ralphm

    I haven't heard anything about DMA recently, either, other than some public news about entities self-identifying as so-called gatekeepers.

  39. stpeter

    It seems likely that we won’t see significant movement on DMA for a few years, at least based on my calls with people active at IETF.

  40. stpeter

    That is, self-identifying gatekeepers will put in place stopgap measures to “comply” in the short term.

  41. stpeter

    So this topic might not be actionable now and we can revisit periodically if we learn more.

  42. stpeter

    IMHO. :-)

  43. MattJ

    Apart from ensuring we make progress on MLS, I agree I don't think there are any action items here

  44. stpeter


  45. emus

    sorry, got thrown out of the chat

  46. MattJ

    and figuring out if someone wants to attend IETF 117 is of course an open question

  47. ralphm

    arc: We've been discussing MIMI for months now. If you are unaware of the term, I think you have some reading to do. Start here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mimi/about/. This is related to EU Digital Markets Act (DMA).

  48. arc


  49. arc

    I keep missing meetings because we keep moving them

  50. stpeter

    IMHO remote participation seems fine at the moment, given the relatively low level of activity. (Tracking the list discussion and document submissions might even be sufficient.)

  51. emus

    can we call via members@ please

  52. stpeter

    Meeting time can be discussed under AOB. :-)

  53. MattJ

    arc, check my multiple reports to the members mailing list

  54. MattJ

    They should tell you everything you need to know

  55. ralphm

    But I agree with your assessment earlier, and we can just keep this item on for potential updates.

  56. ralphm

    Moving on?

  57. stpeter

    That’s a good segue into the infrastructure situation.

  58. ralphm

    2. Infra

  59. stpeter

    Because the members@ list archives aren’t visible on the web...

  60. emus

    On the DMA one quetsion

  61. stpeter

    @emus fire away!

  62. emus

    before we move on

  63. emus

    ralphm: you said you had some exchange at fosdem

  64. emus

    have you had a chance to follow up here?

  65. ralphm

    For me the follow-up was mostly being at the EU meeting at the end of February.

  66. emus

    Okay, but should we engage here again? it sounded promising

  67. ralphm

    Promising in what way. Nothing is really moving w.r.t. the DMA.

  68. emus

    but also backing up xmpp in general?

  69. MattJ

    Well, the DMA is moving according to its planned timeline

  70. ralphm

    What I mean is that the clock doesn't start ticking until the EU Commission decides on timelines.

  71. ralphm

    I believe that happens early September

  72. stpeter


  73. ralphm

    Yep, September 6.

  74. emus

    Fine, but I prefer to be read with what we can do on our side until then

  75. emus


  76. ralphm

    So I suggest that anyone interested reads the documents MattJ mentioned

  77. stpeter

    I think we concluded that in the long term the most useful thing would be to define an XMPP profile for MLS (because e2e encryption support will be necessary eventually and MLS seems like the most promising / common path for that).

  78. ralphm


  79. ralphm

    Anyway, I don't think we need to go on this. I have limited time today, so let's move on to agenda item 2

  80. ralphm

    2. Infrastructure

  81. ralphm


  82. emus

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mimi/about/. this?

  83. stpeter

    @emus yes, as well as MattJ’s notes to the members@ list

  84. emus


  85. stpeter

    AFAICS, the infrastructure situation is still a mess. The only thing I’ve done recently is (manually) add/remove people on the members@ list after the last election.

  86. MattJ

    The main ongoing issue with infrastructure is that the new mailman is not fully configured yet - the most notable consequences of that are lack of the web interface (so no access to archives, subscription or admin interfaces)

  87. ralphm

    Is this Mailman 3?

  88. stpeter


  89. MattJ

    It's also not clear if the lists are currently being archived (i.e. new messages)

  90. ralphm

    Ok. I've put off migrating my own Mailman setup forever.

  91. stpeter


  92. stpeter

    We did, too.

  93. stpeter

    Basically we need to finish the installation by adding a web server (likely nginx).

  94. stpeter

    And then check on archiving etc.

  95. ralphm

    From the iteam ML I understood that Jonathan has suggested he can work on things, but I don't know if there's progress.

  96. stpeter

    We’ll restart the email thread with Jonathan.

  97. ralphm


  98. MattJ

    I have practically zero mailman (2 or 3) experience, but I can assist with setting up a web server if that's all that's needed

  99. stpeter

    My admin skills are getting rusty and I’m not confident that I won’t blow something up.

  100. MattJ

    I can also of course sit down and figure out mailman setup, but I won't have time for that for at least another couple of weeks

  101. ralphm

    3. Finance

  102. stpeter

    MattJ: we can discuss with Jonathan via email and divide up the tasks.

  103. MattJ


  104. ralphm

    (sorry, everything is laggy here, I assume that the restart suggestion by stpeter was the conclusion)

  105. stpeter

    This is a brief finance update, not a full report.

  106. emus

    i have one more point here https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty and discourse

  107. stpeter

    ralphm: yes

  108. ralphm

    emus: I think from a Board perspective we're done on Infra, but you can participate on the iteam ML or MUC

  109. ralphm

    3. Finance

  110. ralphm


  111. stpeter

    We currently have $12,700 in the bank, down from $16k+ at the start of the year.

  112. stpeter

    Because of a miscommunication between me and Eddie, as well as the fact that I was traveling, we missed a deadline with Google (by less than 24 hours) and therefore it seems that we will not be paid for our participation in the Summer of Code.

  113. ralphm


  114. stpeter

    That would have been our usual way to make up for expenses incurred because we have been at around $16k in the bank for years.

  115. stpeter

    Yes, it’s bad and I’m sorry.

  116. ralphm

    Is there something we can do still?

  117. stpeter

    Eddie pinged people and I don’t think he’s heard back.

  118. stpeter

    By the end of next week we’re supposed to submit a tax form at Payoneer in order to get paid, and I plan to proceed with that as normal just in case.

  119. ralphm

    Let's just do so, indeed

  120. stpeter

    @emus Should I send a separate email to GSoC people? Any word from them?

  121. MattJ


  122. ralphm

    stpeter: That'd be a good move I think.

  123. stpeter

    Also with regard to finances, I will commit to creating a more detailed finance report for 2023 YTD so that we can track things more carefully. I also need to do that for past years. I can add these things as web pages.

  124. ralphm


  125. stpeter

    That’s all I have for the moment.

  126. ralphm

    4. AOB

  127. ralphm

    Any OB?

  128. stpeter

    Date of next meeting / stop moving the meeting times so that people don’t get confused? ;-)

  129. stpeter

    (Also it seems that the meeting notification didn’t work even though I set it up in our shared calendar?)

  130. stpeter

    @arc would you prefer Wednesday?

  131. stpeter

    I don’t have a strong preference.

  132. arc

    I don't care what it is but we cannot keep changing this every month

  133. ralphm

    I've just put https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com on my calendar and have not been confused yet

  134. arc

    I have had to put this in my calendar and it keeps changing without updating the calendar

  135. stpeter

    I think it’s been Thursday at 17:00 UTC every meeting this year based on agreement reached in December, but I really don’t have a preference.

  136. ralphm

    ical: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/ical/64v3vs15qlalgqv0j7r99ikm1c%40group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics

  137. stpeter

    I can’t account for the calendaring issues.

  138. stpeter

    But subscribing to the calendar has worked well for me, too.

  139. stpeter

    (Modulo the lack of notifs.)

  140. ralphm

    arc: I'm not sure what calendaring tool you use but just subscribing to iCal should just work.

  141. stpeter

    We can also start sending out 1-week and 1-day reminders just to be sure. ;-)

  142. ralphm

    If you use Google Calendar you can go to calendar settings and add reminders

  143. arc

    I use Google and it has not worked in the past because someone keeps deleting the event and posting a new one when they move it, which kills my alarm. So does this new time and date work for everyone next month?

  144. stpeter

    Speaking of which, if we stick with the first Thursday of the month, the next meeting would be at 17:00 UTC on Thursday, August 3.

  145. ralphm


  146. ralphm

    Which is:

  147. ralphm

    5. Date of Next

  148. ralphm

    for me August 3 is fine

  149. MattJ


  150. ralphm


  151. ralphm

    6. Close

  152. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  153. stpeter

    I just edited the calendar event to be recurring on the first Thursday of each month.

  154. arc

    The ICS link did not work but I added it myself

  155. stpeter

    Yep, thanks.

  156. ralphm

    Thanks, stpeter!

  157. ralphm bangs gavel

  158. arc

    Wednesday or Thursday?

  159. MattJ

    > Speaking of which, if we stick with the first Thursday of the month, the next meeting would be at 17:00 UTC on Thursday, August 3.

  160. arc

    Yes that is why I'm asking

  161. MattJ

    That message I quoted says Thursday twice, and doesn't mention Wednesday once. And my calendar confirms that August 3 is a Thursday. So I don't understand why you're asking?

  162. arc

    I am not referring to the message you quoted

  163. stpeter

    Back in December we agreed on Thursday.

  164. stpeter

    If that doesn’t work for Arc or anyone else, we can move as needed,

  165. stpeter


  166. arc

    Yes we did and several people including you had to change it last minute

  167. arc

    I don't care what day it is I just don't want it to change

  168. arc

    If some person has double booked it they should not attend

  169. arc

    I would love to include everyone every month but the reality is that this changing it for every single person's needs ends up becoming too complicated

  170. arc

    I am 6 months out of a stroke, I rely on Google calendar for everything. And I'm the one with the constantly changing schedule with juggling different PT and OT appointments throughout each week, but they are never scheduled more than a week ahead so I don't really care what day its on. If it's in my calendar I will not book another event for the same time

  171. MattJ

    arc, I don't think the meeting was ever moved

  172. MattJ

    There was indeed some confusion about the one in June, but according to the previous meeting *and* the calendar entry, it was on the Thursday as planned

  173. arc

    You should check the list archives

  174. arc

    Btw thanks stpeter for the reminder today

  175. emus


  176. emus

    hmm now I can write again

  177. MSavoritias fae.ve

    what was the error?

  178. emus

    first of all I will likely be off on 3rd Aug, but have the session without me.

  179. emus

    Would be great if we can become a more pro-active for our topics of interest and also beyond Board imho. I will read the document of course, too.

  180. emus

    stpeter: let me check my mails be fore you reach out. I will let you know within the enxt hour.

  181. emus

    MSavoritias fae.ve: > The room is currently overactive, please try again later

  182. MSavoritias fae.ve

    ah here too..

  183. emus


  184. MSavoritias fae.ve

    it has happened on three different servers all running prosody lately

  185. MattJ

    Because everyone has been enabling limits lately

  186. MSavoritias fae.ve

    ah makes sense with two of them. with joinjabber we havent done it

  187. MSavoritias fae.ve

    but its a setting i can check

  188. MattJ

    If you haven't enabled it on joinjabber then you won't see it there

  189. MSavoritias fae.ve

    ah right the person was talking about another server. my bad

  190. MattJ

    For muc.xmpp.org we're planning to auto-member XSF members, which should help

  191. MattJ

    And of course we can review the limits if they are consistently reached

  192. singpolyma

    I have sometimes heard people report reaching the limit when it seemed just normal conversation was happening. So maybe need to tweak it up a tiny bit but it hasn't been urgent yet

  193. pep.

    chatstates etc.?

  194. MattJ

    The problem is that silent traffic such as chat states count

  195. MattJ

    So when a few people are talking the real traffic is a lot higher than it seems

  196. singpolyma

    Oh. Yeah. Maybe just counting a bit less stuff rather than upping the limit is the way

  197. MattJ

    Excluding chat states allows silent MUC flooding 🙂

  198. MattJ

    But they could be counted as half or something

  199. singpolyma

    If it's silent why do I care?

  200. MattJ

    Still has the potential to lag clients and consume bandwidth and battery

  201. singpolyma

    I guess

  202. MattJ

    I had to mod_firewall someone here who was (presumably unintentionally) flooding me with IQs. I noticed 🙂

  203. edhelas

    Is it the end of presences status ? I barely have one or two contacts that have a custom status in my 400 contacts rosters now.

  204. MattJ

    Yes, for about 10 years

  205. MattJ

    The primary status people care about now is the personal status, not the device status

  206. edhelas

    But we don't have that no ? Should we create a status PEP node ? :D

  207. MSavoritias fae.ve

    more PEP stuff \o/

  208. MattJ

    Yes, it was discussed at the summit (not the most recent one) - we need a XEP

  209. MattJ

    There are probably notes on the wiki

  210. singpolyma

    Isn't that what presence text is? Personal status?

  211. singpolyma

    Not do avoid making new pep nodes ;)

  212. MattJ

    Not when it's per device and disappears when that device is offline

  213. singpolyma

    Every proprietary messenger I look at also has device status, but it's not usually prominent in the UI just sort of there

  214. edhelas


  215. MattJ

    Yeah, there is still a small part for device status to play

  216. edhelas

    Instagram introduced "Notes" recently

  217. edhelas

    Which is nothing more that an account presence status

  218. MattJ

    But per device status messages are not a thing that anyone wants

  219. singpolyma

    MattJ: oh, you mean because iPhone. Probably I never see you online so I never get your text

  220. MattJ

    edhelas: sure, many platforms have "stories" now which I think started with Instagram

  221. edhelas

    Yes there is Stories, and Notes which are just "small text stories"

  222. MattJ

    And it's basically just a status, but an image/video instead of text

  223. MattJ

    And it seems there was still demand for text after all 🙂

  224. edhelas

    So we could start to introduce small "social" features like that in our XMPP clients

  225. edhelas

    It's pretty simple to implement as well :)

  226. MattJ


  227. Link Mauve

    MattJ, with Snapchat actually, Instagram copied them quite some time later.

  228. Link Mauve

    (Re stories.)

  229. edhelas

    Maybe we could start with those small "text stories" ? See how it goes ?

  230. edhelas

    Would it be interesting to do a little survey to ask the clients developers what features they would like to implement among a list ?

  231. singpolyma

    Could even build it on top of presence text until something else is standardized, just to try it out

  232. MSavoritias fae.ve

    small notes of anything "attached" to my profile sounds cool

  233. edhelas

    It would be basically "XEP-xxxx PEP Notes" : Publish on urn:xmpp:notes:0 <notes xmlns="">My text</notes>

  234. MSavoritias fae.ve

    why make it only text though

  235. MSavoritias fae.ve

    it can be anything

  236. edhelas

    access_model: roster max_items: 1

  237. edhelas

    > it can be anything "anything' need to be standardized

  238. MSavoritias fae.ve

    yeah of course. i was more saying not to restrict it to text 😀

  239. MattJ

    Well, the summit folk wanted text, emoji, photo/video and a ttl

  240. singpolyma

    I'm happy to at least rename "status" to "note" in my app

  241. edhelas

    Well restriction can also help.

  242. edhelas

    If you have only text you basically have a common way to display it.

  243. singpolyma

    Bring back current activity!!

  244. edhelas

    We can have several PEP nodes for each usages.

  245. edhelas

    > Bring back current activity!! https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0108.html

  246. edhelas

    Well !!!

  247. edhelas

    I forgot about that one :D

  248. edhelas

    Looks like we already have Notes

  249. edhelas

    Not sure about the predefined list of activities though

  250. mathieui

    current activity but without requiring me to transform the html list of activities into a python dict to load into the program

  251. moparisthebest

    The one thing holding XMPP back from mass adoption is lack of winamp integration

  252. singpolyma

    I think you mean that no clients are skinnable with winamp skins

  253. moparisthebest

    Well I meant "now playing: X" but sure why not that too

  254. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, this was present like a decade ago, and then decayed as newer clients didn’t implement it.

  255. edhelas

    I'd like some kind of game integration though

  256. edhelas

    "Link Mauve is now playing Genshin Impact"

  257. Link Mauve


  258. moparisthebest

    Ok discord

  259. Link Mauve

    I have that directly integrated in PyTouhou, fwiw.

  260. edhelas

    > Ok discord Ok boomer protocol

  261. Link Mauve

    Hi admins, could you make me a member in this room please?

  262. MSavoritias fae.ve

    game integration would be cool

  263. mathieui

    edhelas, you mean dust off 0196?

  264. Link Mauve

    I once started working on a free reimplementation of libdiscord-rpc.a, which many emulators started to include, but using XMPP underneath.

  265. Link Mauve

    Then got caught in xmpp-rs not yet being usable and never finished it.

  266. edhelas

    > edhelas, you mean dust off 0196? Yes ! If I had some kind of client to push the gaming state

  267. moparisthebest

    For that to be useful to me, the systems I play games on would need to be internet connected, and basically none are :P

  268. Link Mauve

    Mine almost all are, although the main game I play on them is Linux kernel hacking. :3

  269. moparisthebest

    You don't need integration to set: > Link Mauve: kernel hacking on Nintendo hardware And just leave it :D

  270. Link Mauve

    But which Nintendo hardware am I working on right now? I’m sure all of my contacts are dying to know it.

  271. Link Mauve

    Is it the Wii today? Is it the Switch? You will never know until you ask me!

  272. emus

    wow... this is really annoying, which ever settings has been chnaged...

  273. emus

    stpeter: I can confirm we are able to receive payments

  274. emus


  275. emus

    so move on

  276. emus


  277. emus