XSF Discussion - 2023-09-06

It was actually political. There was a big argument about it, so for the sake of getting something published I wrote a spec that would work fine for editing old messages, and wrote "but don't do it".

I believe there are valid concerns about rewriting history?

in the end it is a decision of the client if and how to accept corrections to older mesaages

also what is a message :)

is a chat state notification a message?

t4d: you can ignore the recommendation, it's a decision on the receiver side

Well, and sender side. No point ignoring it on the receiver if the sender doesn't do it :)

You can not depend that the receiver will display your correction as correction, that's all

Kev: no client will give remote machines the possibility to edit all the history and then point at the spec and say "but they should not do it"

I also plan to accept corrections for more than the last message, it's a weird limitation, and other messengers don't have it

lovetox: Whatsapp just added it this year, and while it's not limited to the latest message, it's limited to messages sent in the past 15 minutes AFAIK. I wonder if it's client-sender-side limitation though. So some other messengers have this type of limitation too.

Yeah and other messengers like ms teams have it forever

Personally if you can check the message's history, I see no reason to not allow older messages to be corrected (if that's a concern)

the larger the gap between the time the message was sent and the time it was corrected, the more obvious it needs to be in the UI

And also the more irrelevant it becomes, who reads the old stuff.?

old stuff can be pretty important in conflict situations

those are some nice council logs you have there, shame if they were to be "correted" before proper minutes are produced

wouldnt that be solved with edit history? plus the server would have the original message no?

Also the client has the original message

also that

These are of course concerns, ones the software developer has to solve for his user's

Holger - are you here?

(I'm having s2s issues, preventing me from one-on-one conversations, apologies)

Guus: On my phone for the next hour or so.

Holger: I was going to ask you if you can find out why conversations.im is timeing out after my test server is sending SASL EXTERNAL `<auth`

But that

ll be hard on a phone :)

Guus: Can have a look later today if you PM me the domain.

Holger: PM'ing is kinda hard. the host name contains 'netty02' which should be plenty unique

👍

Obviously, after digging into this for 12 hours, I find the issue 2 minutes after I ask you to help me.

Sorry Holger. We have an issue with DirectTLS. Problem doesn't happen with StartTLS. That's _very_ likely on our side.

> Obviously, after digging into this for 12 hours, I find the issue 2 minutes after I ask you to help me. That's always how it works. You should've asked 11 hours ago.

Yeah

You're setting yourself up for a _lot_ of noise ;)

MSavoritias fae.ve, yep, sure, edit history helps. What I mean is: currently clients display a small low-contrast pen icon somewhere if a message was edited. When a message was edited a week or so after it was sent, the pen icon should be high-contrast so that when someone scrolls up to figure out how things went down, it's obvious to them that things might've changed since they last looked.

Can you even edit messages after a certain point? Last time I tried, editting a message from 2 days ago didn't work?

> It was actually political. There was a big argument about it, so for the sake of getting something published I wrote a spec that would work fine for editing old messages, and wrote "but don't do it". ↑ ↺

yeah i agree you need better visibility

for edited messages

gooya, so, the spec technically would support it, but clients might not allow it

Back when I implemented edited messages in poezio, I had this idea of making the number of editions red instead of yellow if the distance between the first and the last versions was too high.

Gradients!

But time between first and last version would also be a good indicator.

Why not both? :D

Because currently it’s neither!

But on the other hand, the edit distance and the semantic(?) distance might be very different

Indeed, that was why I didn’t do it in the end.

Gradient by levenshtein

I create a git repository per message and allow the user to see full commit history

hrrrr

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_23_4328

> Digital Markets Act: Commission designates six gatekeepers

So it begins...

Hmm, iMessage slipped through for now

and gmail?

I guess because no-one uses iMessage across business/consumer.

Or just it'll come after the investigation completes. *shrug*

my partner also pointed out twitter is not there

but tiktok is

which is another weird thing

That does seem particularly surprising, yeah.

Maybe the foot cannon was large enough there :)

You mean The Platform Formerly Known As Twitter?

Who uses _that_ anymore anyway?

Ex-Twitter.

well to be honest in my travels around Europe (mostly eastern) nobody has used Twitter or Imessage

so it does make sense there

not sure how it is in the west

iMessage gets used a lot here, but not as much as Messenger/Whatsapp, I suspect.

yeah

messenger/whatsapp is huge

and snapchat in finland for some reason

It's highly regional afaik

yeah

And never that I've seen between business/consumer.

its viber in greece for some reason

Network effects move in mysterious ways 🤷️

No one uses WhatsApp here, but messenger yeah. I keep being told that iMessage is huge and probably it is but my contacts skew poor

heh. same in greece

In the Netherlands, using Whatsapp is a verb.

Everybody is on messenger here. e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y

What's the popular one in China? Don't forget Asia.

WeChat?

WeChat claims over a billion active users

yeah wechat probably

kakao talk in korea afaik

> No one uses WhatsApp here, but messenger yeah. I keep being told that iMessage is huge and probably it is but my contacts skew poor Where is "here" for you?

I want to live there

You prefer Messenger and iMessage to WhatsApp?

I unboxed a smartphone for mainlain China market the other day and there were no Google, no Playstore, no Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp whatsoever. Only Chinnese apps.

sounds like an /e/ phone here

> You prefer Messenger and iMessage to WhatsApp? I only noticed "no WhatsApp" and ignored the rest

Hi all, the XSF Board decided to cancel its meeting tomorrow at 17:00 UTC because a few Board members had late-breaking conflicts. The next meeting will be held on Thursday, October 5, at 17:00 UTC: <https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board-Meeting-2023-10-05>. In the meantime, we will work via email etc. to complete some of our open action items.

Thank you 🙂