XSF Discussion - 2023-09-17

  1. psychhim


  2. root

    psychhim: hello

  3. psychhim

    How u doing bro? What is this room about?

  4. root

    If you do not know, then I would ask why are you here?

  5. MSavoritias fae.ve

    its > Discussion room of the XMPP Standards Foundation an standard you can read at xmpp.org

  6. root

    This isn't a group most stumble on. But if you are interested in what's going on in XMPP, then you are at the right place.

  7. psychhim

    I really loved XMPP! Definitely I will like to be here

  8. psychhim

    Thank you

  9. root

    Then welcome :)

  10. psychhim


  11. root

    If you follow the link above you can read more and find out more.

  12. psychhim

    Checked out. Getting more interested.

  13. psychhim


  14. psychhim

    In XMPP public rooms, there's no way sending encrypted messages. Is it right?

  15. root

    Depending on what you mean by encrypted, all connections benefit fro TLS encryption. Unless your server is poorly configured.

  16. root

    Depending on what you mean by encrypted, all connections benefit from TLS encryption. Unless your server is poorly configured.

  17. opal

    psychhim, it is possible but according to https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0384.html a "Multi-User Chat room that supports OMEMO MUST be configured non-anonymous and SHOULD be configured members-only."

  18. opal

    it definitely will not work in this room, for example, because JIDs are anonymised

  19. emus

    Dear Members, this year I have the honor to participate the Google Mentor Summit 2023, 13-15th Oct at Sunnyvale, Google Campus. As I will have more or less a representing role (and I take this seriously), I offer to also take your word from the XMPP Community. So if you have any suggestions, experiences or points to share and recommendations, I offer to take note an potentially try to bring them into communication. Last but not least, I may try to held a short introduction to XMPP as technology and the idea behind it I held at the Elbe-Sprint. Anymore feedback and input here is also appreciated. https://sites.google.com/view/gsoc2023mentorsummit/home Cheers, Ed

  20. moparisthebest

    Thanks for doing that emus !

  21. emus

    It's a pleasure!

  22. nicola


  23. emus


  24. Seve

    That's awesome, thank you!!

  25. moparisthebest

    Has anyone ever implemented or thought of "bots" in MUCs like slack/discord have? ie they register some /commands and provide auto completion etc, example: /giphy search-term would find a giphy video that matches and let you pick another if you didn't like the first then send it, it would come "from you" but "sent with giphy" or so?

  26. moparisthebest

    Obviously possible the muc could just provide some adhoc commands form for these or something, unsure of good UI there

  27. singpolyma

    Yes, ive always thought ad hoc commands provides a better and richer way to accomplish this kind of goal

  28. lovetox

    sounds complicated especially for this giphy case, would this not be much better implemented in the client directly, querying the giphy API

  29. lovetox

    then telling a bot, to send some giphy results

  30. lovetox

    than telling a bot, to send some giphy results

  31. lovetox

    then some MUCs have this bot, and others not ..

  32. singpolyma

    Sure, but not every client will

  33. Zash

    What stops a client from doing an ad-hoc command when the user types /some-command

  34. moparisthebest

    Giphy was just an example, this is how other platforms do bots though apparently

  35. singpolyma

    Zash: nothing. That woul be an interesting ui

  36. Zash

    Also, what stops a client from sending the ad-hoc command to a bot in the room?

  37. lovetox

    i heard of bots in telegram they seem very big

  38. lovetox

    but never heard specifically what they do

  39. lovetox

    so i would be interested in simple examples

  40. moparisthebest

    Some folks were explaining to me on IRC what discord had that IRC/XMPP did not, and my takeaway was only: 1. This kind of bot 2. Entering/leaving video and voice MUCs with many users

  41. singpolyma

    Media search, polls, dice are certain common simple examples

  42. Zash

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0439.html is another model that might fit

  43. lovetox

    the question is do we need a XEP for that? is it not rather the people that write bots that are missing, than the spec that does not provide a way to do it

  44. moparisthebest

    No we have bots, but they are IRC like bots

  45. singpolyma

    Yes mostly true. We might need some extensions to ad hoc for eg list of options with images

  46. Zash

    Nothing super-wrong with `!command` style bots.

  47. singpolyma

    My experiments with WebXDC are also related to this

  48. Zash

    After working on some Matrix deployment I thought about some sort of bot "store", that'd let you build an ui where you add bots to rooms. Probably just need a list of jids somewhere and regular MUC invites.

  49. Zash

    As long as we don't do it with an <iframe> :)

  50. singpolyma

    I prefer to install integrations to the MUC rather than "bots" like that for most things, but certainly there is room for both

  51. singpolyma

    List of JIDs to browse we have a good spec for already (disco#list)

  52. Zash

    singpolyma, that is more likely to be specific to the MUC server software

  53. Zash

    Hooking up integrations that integrate via some protocol would probably be different.

  54. MSavoritias fae.ve

    Maybe what we are missing is a guide and an easy way for people to wrote bots and add them to the room?

  55. MSavoritias fae.ve

    Its popular in discord afaik

  56. singpolyma

    And to have the UI be good

  57. MSavoritias fae.ve


  58. Zash

    Bots that hook into client UI is also a bit more complex in an open ecosystem.

  59. moparisthebest

    Discord style bots aren't possible protocol wise yet, really

  60. moparisthebest

    We aren't missing much, just someone to put all the existing bits together

  61. singpolyma

    I guess if you want them to be *bots* in the classic sense you're right. They can't message as you

  62. Zash

    Are we talking some sort of rewrite?

  63. singpolyma

    But the MUC can, but then we need a protocol for integration at that level (which could be just ad hoc stanza forwarding to a "bot" jid)

  64. moparisthebest

    Words, they are hard lol, we have what I and IRC users would call bots, we do not have what discord/slack users call bots, they are different things

  65. Zash

    XEP-0356: Privileged Entity with MUC privileges?

  66. singpolyma

    Basically all of the slack/discord bots are effectively ad hoc command on the MUC

  67. Zash

    "IRC style bots" that connect and have the powers of regular clients, while those other system have specialized bot APIs, right?

  68. opal


  69. singpolyma

    Zash: right. And irc style basically always talk to the whole room. These often give some UI privately to the user and then message either as themselves or as you

  70. opal

    xmpp forms finally seeing some love?

  71. MSavoritias fae.ve

    Yeah its as moparisthebest Said the pieces are probably there already. I mean forms can have media and everything

  72. MSavoritias fae.ve

    Its just somebody (tm) to put it all together

  73. moparisthebest

    > Basically all of the slack/discord bots are effectively ad hoc command on the MUC I'm unclear if, mapped to XMPP, it's per room or per server, or the thing we are missing which is group of rooms

  74. singpolyma

    Not in option yet, but it's easy to add. I support svg in option already for reasons

  75. moparisthebest

    MSavoritias fae.ve: weren't you working on groups of rooms

  76. moparisthebest

    Like with shared admins etc

  77. MSavoritias fae.ve

    Not yet no

  78. MSavoritias fae.ve

    It was just talk

  79. moparisthebest

    You did bring it up... Ah ok good

  80. singpolyma

    Even if it's installed server wide the action is still at the room level

  81. opal

    moparisthebest, we are missing that but are groups of rooms extremely useful? i dont even understand it on discord, slack, or libera/freenode

  82. moparisthebest

    > Even if it's installed server wide the action is still at the room level Yes

  83. MSavoritias fae.ve

    I do commit to write at some point

  84. opal

    most of the time i see just an "offtopic" channel (and i guess we see that here too)

  85. MSavoritias fae.ve

    But i dont think relevant nere necesseriuy

  86. opal

    and like, beats me why people just dont pick a random social channel lol

  87. opal

    well, on slack it makes more sense (but companies using slack itself doesnt make sense)

  88. Zash

    Can you have bots post as you on Slack? What I've seen recently looks like they just post as "themselves", but the command to activate them goes via some private channel.

  89. opal

    so basically the functional purpose for groups or uh, what does matrix call them now, is with a bunch of rooms run by one entity that happens to need stricter consistent control over all their rooms

  90. Zash

    Like we could do with forms or adhoc to the room.

  91. opal

    i know on discord it's possible to output any name/avatar through the webhook api

  92. moparisthebest

    > Can you have bots post as you on Slack? What I've seen recently looks like they just post as "themselves", but the command to activate them goes via some private channel. Yes, the giphy bot I mentioned does this

  93. MSavoritias fae.ve

    > Even if it's installed server wide the action is still at the room level Yeah. Probably it should be at a room level for simplicity.

  94. opal

    discord distinguishes this by putting BOT next to the name, which has the bad effect of relays on discord (e.g. the matrix bridge) showing all relayed users as bots, and zoomers asking me why i have that next to my name

  95. Zash

    Could you have a bot that you PM some command and it replies with some stuff, and then _you_ re-post that to the channel?

  96. moparisthebest

    You can do that now sure, no one would say it's as integrated

  97. opal

    let's make the automation manual

  98. opal

    i dont find much value in bots anyway so no strong opinion here

  99. Zash

    Entirely doable in a client today, should work fine with most current bot even.

  100. opal

    ohhh you mean the client picks it up haha sorry for being smart

  101. opal

    would this necessitate some kind of intent in the message that it should be reposted