XSF Discussion - 2023-11-02

ME: Maybe you can join the Psi MUC Room, a Qt XMPP client! xmpp:psi-dev@conference.jabber.ru?join

Yeah, the listings on xmpp.work don't magically appear. They have to be added manually. It's not terribly difficult work, but a bit time-consuming. After a stint where I did one or two per day, my attention span dropped. I've been trying to hire a kid to help keep this up-to-date, but that fell through. It is not very rewarding work on a couple of levels.

For the record: everyone can submit. You all are very welcome to keep an eye on the LinkerIn's of this world and copy over listings.

> No I have sent you in this MUC, I have not your XMPP account... I'm afraid I didn't received any message yet!

> ME: Maybe you can join the Psi MUC Room, a Qt XMPP client! xmpp:psi-dev@conference.jabber.ru?join I did join the room, thank you for it! ✏

> phryk: isn't is the other way around? I vaguely recalled that your stuff was built around Prosody's invite API Yeah, but IIRC back then there wasn't a plugin for fancy invite pages that guide you through install and registration. That part I built from scratch on my site. ↺

phryk, I'm pretty sure most of it was published at the same time as that blog post

For anyone still with hope for the CA/CT ecosystem: https://alecmuffett.com/article/108139 (point 8 and 9 are particularly relevant). Basically the proposal is for the EU to have a CA that has to be included in trust stores.

yeah see also https://last-chance-for-eidas.org/

Dear member, a kind reminder on the Summit: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_26#Summit_Participants

If you inform us, we can add your entry for you to the wiki.

Seems the (subscribe | archives) links on https://xmpp.org/community/mailing-lists/ are dead?

This is becoming a running gag. The frontend fell off :)

Holger, yes, known issue for now. You can try sending an email to <list-name>-subscribe@xmpp.org and if that doesn't work, let me know what email address and what list and I can add it manually

Ah sorry missed that.

MattJ: Okay, thanks (was just interested in archives right now).

If there's something in particular I can search my local emails and forward something to you

If you're lucky it's in the wayback archive, but I haven't had a lot of success with that

Is this getting to a point where we need to coincide that we don't have the resources to address this, and outsource the task?

No, it's past that point :)

I thought we concluded that some time ago.

But outsourcing a task is not a simple/magic operation in itself

Oh ok. How can I help with that?

I don't think there is anything for you to help with at this point - we've accepted an offer, I'm waiting for a final statement of work and an SSH key from them so they can begin

A hosted Discourse for non-profit orgs (Standard Package) is only 50$/month https://www.discourse.org/pricing

They even offer a mailman import

Ah, that's good news Mattj. I wasn't aware that things were progressing.

cal0pteryx - maybe that's a different discussion. Not something I'd be against. I'm thinking it's an either/or choice?

cal0pteryx, yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot recently. I think my proposal would be to set it up, and try it out as a more general forum rather than for standards discussion (which would stay on the mailing list)

Then after we have some experience with it, we can make a separate decision about potentially migrating our core lists to it

I'm generally not a fan of Discourse, and I don't agree with people who insist it's a drop-in replacement for mailing lists. But I'm also not against it, and I understand that there are reasons people dislike mailing lists too.

isnt having that in contrast to lemmy that already exists as an xmpp forum? that also federates.

if its only as a frontend to the mailing lists sure i could see why its desirable

I think the Lemmy experiment failed

That doesn't mean there can't be some activity on Lemmy, but it didn't become any kind of community hub

MattJ: a Discourse experiment may also fail, if we do not commit to adding content to it (which may mean committing to moving mailing lists)

Discourse may also fail, but I think it's worth the same chance we gave Lemmy

sure i agree. but why would an isolated forum work if lemmy didnt?

Guus, you mean forcing people to use it? :)

which the forum doesnt have any federation as i said

MSavoritias fae.ve, Lemmy was quite complicated, registration was hard and it suffered from severe spam and abuse problems ✏

true makes sense on that front

Mattj: without saying that I believe that we must do this, but yes.

im not aware of any discourse forum that actually was popular but we can try since it doesnt cost much

MattJ: > If there's something in particular I can search my local emails and forward something to you Thanks, I have them locally myself, just wanted to point someone else to a discussion. But not important 🙂

I do believe that chances are high that any new venue won't succeed, if we do not dedicate content to it.

fwiw, Ignite uses Discourse. Not saying it's popular, but we migrated over our old forum stuff to it. It's working pretty well.

We're using it as a forum-forum, not as a mailinglist-in-disguise

Forum->Discourse works pretty well, I think. Mailing list-> Discourse I'm much less sold on.

I understand what you're saying, but for me "We want Discourse to succeed" is not a good enough reason to force everyone to use it

> MattJ: > 2023-11-02 12:45 (GMT+01:00) > cal0pteryx, yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot recently. I think my proposal would be to set it up, and try it out as a more general forum rather than for standards discussion (which would stay on the mailing list) +1

Kev, I think that's very valid.

> MattJ: > 2023-11-02 12:46 (GMT+01:00) > I'm generally not a fan of Discourse, and I don't agree with people who insist it's a drop-in replacement for mailing lists. But I'm also not against it, and I understand that there are reasons people dislike mailing lists too. but one dont need to use it without being excluded, right?

there's a separate discussion on if having a mailinglist instead of a forum benefits us. I truly do not know.

Guus, I don't know any other standards organization that conducts its primary business on Discourse or another web forum

me neither.

I know I'm an old fart, but I can't imagine a world in which I could interact sensibly with the XSF through Discourse.

That doesn't mean we have to be the same as everyone else, but clearly mailing lists do work for getting stuff done, and venturing into other ways of working should be done with the appropriate level of caution

but mailing lists are _very_ 1993. Using forum-like venues might offer opportunities. I'd not be surprised if involvement increases a lot.

Maybe stupid question: Has it ever been considered to move the mailing lists to xmpp? Since its about xmpp stuff anyway and everybody that participates already has one.

Guus, meeting face-to-face is something humans have done for many thousands of years, yet here we are organizing a summit :)

Just because something was commonly done in 1993 doesn't mean it's inherently bad

I'm not saying that old stuff lost its value. I'm saying that new stoff might add additional value. We've started meeting people over video-calls, allowing many people that can't attend the face-to-face meeting to join in, to build on your example. ::)

I am talking about xep and xsf stuff. Forum still has a place obviously for people that are not into xmpp yet

MSavoritias fae.ve, I think UI matters a lot. While XMPP could be an underlying protocol for sure, the UI of a mail client is just designed for long-form discussions while XMPP clients tend to focus on short IMs

fair

Guus, and I'm proposing adding Discourse and not throwing away what works :)

> Then after we have some experience with it, we can make a separate decision about potentially migrating our core lists to it That's sounds like a good middle way. I would certainly invest time into a Discourse forum. ↺

I fear that Discourse has no chance of succeeding if we don't throw content at it.

Guus, if it fails, it fails. Or should we not try? Or do you really think we shouldn't even try, but just switch on day 1?

I'm not sure which of these options you're arguing for

i do agree with Guus in the sense that if we dont commit to it then it probably will fail to gather interest.

by commit meaning: posts, and discussions

I think it's pointless to have Discourse without a plan to dedicate some kind of content to it. I do not think it's sensible to switch over all existing mailinglists to Discourse either. I don't know what a good migration path / experiment is.

but i feel like thats a discussion for the communication team to coordinate

I think we should avoid giving Discourse a try, without giving it a chance with actual content. Otherwise, the experiment will likely fail, causing us to abandon it.

ftr, the "let's try discourse" thing appears every other year approximately. I hate that platform, every instance where I've seen it used was terrible, even compared to early 2000s phpBB style forums.

Kev, Discord != Discourse;

I think it's a poor idea to migrate an existing list straight to Discourse without any sort of pre-trial. ✏

To be clear: I think Discourse might offer interesting possibilities, but I'm absolutely fine with sticking to mailinglists.

> , Discord != Discourse; I know. My fingers may be another matter.

yeah I wouldn't use Discourse either. the UI is terrible

I *don't* hate Discourse, I've seen it used to good effect in places replacing existing forums. I just don't see how it would be better for us than the mailing lists for anything 'official'. Now something like jdev, I can see an argument for.

yeah it depends what kind of crowd we are targetting

i doubt people will change from twitter/masto to come to a dedicated forum for xmpp for example

Kev, I'm curious to your reasoning

I'm not sure I can articulate it in a useful way.

How would a forum style interface _not_ work for standards discussions? What's the advantage of email here?

"This thread has been closed for inactivity."

never ever happens on email

jonas’ I'm getting responses to 15-year-old discussions on our Discourse. That's simply a setting.

For me it's a matter of workflow - I am happy with my choice of email clients across multiple devices and platforms. I participate in many things, and my inbox is an aggregator. Discourse doesn't fit into that, for the same reason I inevitably drop out of every Slack/etc. chat that I can't join with my XMPP client.

And yes, Slack also has email notifications, it's not the same

How does the Discource email interface hold up?

And yes, this is a selfish perspective - but the simple reality is that my workflow exists so I can maintain my sanity, and if something doesn't fit into it then it eventually gets neglected

and I suspect this applies to a lot of people who contribute to standards discussions

You've seen the number of times you have to ping me about PRs, right? That's because I don't check Github every day :)

the problem is the opposite also happens. people dont participate *because* of email

I agree, which is basically the only reason I'm in favour of exploring alternatives

i am still looking for an email client with good threading personally

yeah

MSavoritias fae.ve, kontact/kmail doesn't cut it?

even thunderbird is good at threading

i dont like thunderbird threading at all

mutt sucks the least! ;)

i have been told of notmuch but have yet to try it

i have also tried mu4e for emacs

kmail havent tried since i dont use kde

heh. i dont use teminal. but if notmuch doesnt work out i will probably have to

From the discourse notification settings: > In mailing list mode you will receive one email per post, as happens with traditional mailing lists. This is desirable if you prefer to interact via email, without visiting the forum website.

Clearly we need an XMPP bridge to discourse, each thread is it's own MUC, pump up those muc numbers

MSavoritias fae.ve: I use Geary on one computer, it looks nice, kinda like Dino for email :)

i will keep that in mind also thank you :) thunderbird has too many functions for me so something simpler would be nice

then kmail is _not_ right for you

It is ironic that I had to step out of this conversation to address email delivery issues (I'm paying a provider, that recently quadrupled their fee, but bounces happen more and more - if anyone can recommend another party, I'm all ears).

mailbox.org?

berlin-based, heard only good things about them.

More important than possibly attracting new blood is to not alienate existing people. Discourse seems to have a high "either is a you love it or you hate it" factor.

thanks jonas’

jonas’ : When you mention mailbox.org. I have seen that they also offer XMPP accounts (same address as e-mail). Does anybody know if mailbox continues the XMPP support? I was a bit surprised when I saw that they seem to use ejabberd. 18.12.1-2 ( https://compliance.conversations.im/server/mailbox.org/ )

Axel R., I do not have contacts to mailbox.org, so I cannot answer that unfortunately :)

jonas’ : Ok, no problem. Maybe I will contact mailbox.org...

Guus: the answer is clear, run your own email 😂

I quite like Discourse, it's become the standard for discussion in most other communities and I like that I can interact with it over email. I think a trial run is worth it. MattJ would you be proposing an xmpp.net subdomain, and would it be appropriate to do eg new user help, etc, there? Would project-specific threads be too off topic or make labels for them and keep it all neat? Or do you think a bit more XSF specific?

moparisthebest: no thank you.

singpolyma, so the email interaction does work these days?

Yes, so long as the host has set it up, which most do IME

singpolyma, *if* we were to set up such a thing, it would be kind of cool to have an umbrella for all the XMPP related projects.

singpolyma, I was thinking under xmpp.org

The XSF would be paying for it

Ok, so an official instance. Right, makes sense re budget

and yeah, I think it would be totally fine to have threads about anything related to XMPP

> More important than possibly attracting new blood is to not alienate existing people. Not a vote for discourse but I dont agree with this statement. If alienating existing people allows new dynamics to happen I'm all for it. Well it depends on the dynamic but I'd be happy to take the risk :)

(also not a vote against discourse)

you're braver than me. :)

I agree we don't *want* to alienate existing people, but if you make that your north star you atrophy and die, ask any dead church ;)

> while XMPP clients tend to focus on short IMs Not all of them.

That's what 'tend to' means :)

For the opposite: there's DeltaChat :)

For my 2 cents, I don't think that changing the way we interact with standard@ will change anything about involvement. There are many more important issue which are resulting in decrease of XMPP popularity. Incidentally, I'd find it sad if we used a tool that wasn't based on XMPP for XSF (except for email, which is there for historical reasons). That's said, I have nothing against discourse itself (the UI is a bit confusing to me though).

Agreed

It would be nice to use the things we standardize :)

I agree but what XMPP tool do we have that is a good fit for standards discussion? I can't think of one

MUC is pretty good :)

But email/forum is a pretty good fit, especially if you can use them interchangeably

Well that sounds like a problem we need to solve

And yeah i dont why muc is not good

XEP-0277 is a pretty good fit.

Muc is great for adhoc discussions about standards, not for formal analysis and archiving etc

that's what git is for ;)

How do I pull up the discussion about a protoxep from muc 10 years ago?

Search for it no?

Which muc do I look in for starters

I mean clients allow for you to keep history forever

your-favourite-search-engine site:logs.xmpp.org xep-xxxx

(works surprisingly well)

Yep. Its a social issue. We just need to organise it ✏

jonas’: I think you mean inbox-something except people referred to it by a different name then etc etc

Vs looking at the protoxep thread and responses

I agree it's a completely solvable problem, but until it's solved, email is pretty good

> Which muc do I look in for starters This one?

> I agree it's a completely solvable problem, but until it's solved, email is pretty good Well i havent seen any movement to actually solve it though ↺

email is not incompatible with XMPP frontend.

singpolyma: but maybe the discussion happened in jdev, or council, or e2e etc

Except libervia

MSavoritias fae.ve: I agree

Isnt that also a client side search thing?

> singpolyma: but maybe the discussion happened in jdev, or council, or e2e etc Well, you need to have an agreed upon discussion venue. That's not a protocol related problem. I could also send email to the wrong mailing list

^

Plus dogfooding is a time honored tradition to improve the stuff you develop

I tend to think email is the right tool for the job here, I'm certain it is *now*, but depending on future developments my mind could change :)

discourse seems like a better mailing list than mailman too...

I don't hate email certainly, I'm just always already in an xmpp client so usually I start there because it's easiest

Same

I just feel like decisions etc need documented elsewhere than a muc

me too :( same reason i miss half irc discussions

(i dont want to use a bridge before anybody suggests it)

if the muc isn't pema-logged I agree

If it's really a decision that's worth logging one can use a wiki for this. or a note in git commit message, etc. but I agree things need to be somewhere

IRC is XMPP for me, I can't even tell the difference

Chat logs are a poor substitute for documentation, indeed

(that's irc to me)

Classic, how can XMPP succeed when all clients don't even have a slap with trout button?

An awesome new solution for muc spam https://gitea.kosmos.org/raucao/xmpp-lightning-antispam tl;dr a bot that will grant voice to people automatically for lightning donations, so you can set this to request fractions of a penny instantly for example

Payment verification is one I've been using in our MUC yeah, it's useful. Though it assumes your trolls aren't willing to pay, I think some of our persistent ones might be if it's cheap enough

Literal proof of work

I like the idea of this bot where it responds to the normal request voice action as the workflow

If you find the trolls are willing to pay you can up the fee I guess

MattJ, [citation needed]

jonas’, best not :)

alternatively: FSVO "work"

moparisthebest: yes, but at some point the fee might be more than legitimate people want to pay. It's a good part of a strategy, but definitely a balancing act

For sure

also cryptoshit :)

> also cryptoshit :) Citation needed :) ↺

lightning?

moparisthebest: pairing with multiple strategies such as sms verification could be interesting. I'd not thought of doing it as a bot like this, but could be a fun way to prototype

Lightning is a Bitcoin layer 2, it's just Bitcoin (so, the good one)

also not related to the topic :) payments can come in any mode the muc operator and participants find useful

I use credit card mostly

but it doesn't really change the approach any

It does, you can't charge such small amounts with a credit card

Gold bars delivered by pony, only accptable method!

Zash: hmm, maybe I need to add a "by pony" payment method to our setup

> It is ironic that I had to step out of this conversation to address email delivery issues (I'm paying a provider, that recently quadrupled their fee, but bounces happen more and more - if anyone can recommend another party, I'm all ears). Guus: migadu? I use them and quite like them. ↺

much classier than by mail

> i will keep that in mind also thank you :) > thunderbird has too many functions for me so something simpler would be nice I use Claws Mail and like it. I don't do anything fancy but it has a simple enough interface. ↺

thanks root

👍

random thought: would not it make more sense nowadays to have status as a PEP node? It's useful to indicate when you're busy, but with mobile devices, you presence can be up and down.

goffi, yes, this has been agreed for at least 4-5 years :)

xep0108?

MattJ: I wasn't aware. singpolyma: hum, XEP-0108 could be a good fit indeed.

goffi, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Conferences/Summit_24/Minutes_Day1#12:00_-_Account_Rich_Presence_in_PEP

The last edit on that page is a massive WTF

🤦

lol

MattJ: thanks.

Hmm

> MSavoritias fae.ve: > 2023-11-02 12:59 (GMT+01:00) > but i feel like thats a discussion for the communication team to coordinate Happy to do so > Axel R.: > 2023-11-02 01:57 (GMT+01:00) > jonas’ : When you mention mailbox.org. I have seen that they also offer XMPP accounts (same address as e-mail). Does anybody know if mailbox continues the XMPP support? I was a bit surprised when I saw that they seem to use ejabberd. 18.12.1-2 ( https://compliance.conversations.im/server/mailbox.org/ ) They dropped official support for xmpp Sorry, how do we alienate people if you can just continue using solo mail?

MattJ: meeting is in about 20 mins right/

?

Yes

because the people using email for mailing lists discussion is a ever smaller niche

same with irc

that doesnt mean we remove mail lists mind you

it just means we need to come up with ways to include people that dont use email

(aside from resseting passwords that is)

MSavoritias fae.ve: but I thought discourse does this?

it does

ah wait i got it out of context i think

never mind

ok

emus, Discourse tries to emulate a mailing list, but it is not a mailing list

MattJ: ok

OT On the Open Security Fund: https://cyberland.ijug.eu/sessions/session-57.html

Anyone wants to make a Pro & Con list out of this discussion, maybe we can somehow tackle the Cons

i think the result was that we are going to deploy it under some xsf and see how it goes no? with mailing lists at first

without* mailing lists at first, I thought

:-)

ah i thought i wrote without

yes i meant without

ok

MattJ: Shall wie add this to board discussion?

Is Summit on the list too?

https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board-Meeting-2023-11-02

Okay, it's time

Who is here?

👁️‍🗨️

👋

ups

(Im on mobile only)

Seems like we're missing stpeter. Ralph can't make it today.

:-(

Do you want to chair today?

I can do, let's get started

If I remember how

I’m here.

Excellent, hey :)

0) Role call

Looks like we have everyone except Ralph, who sent apologies in advance

1) Agenda Current agenda can be found at https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board-Meeting-2023-11-02 - any amendments?

MattJ: see my two points ^

It’s a long agenda, we should try to go quickly through things that aren’t critical. :-)

> ok > MattJ: Shall wie add this to board discussion? > Is Summit on the list too?

I agree

Scanning it now to see if there are any high priority items, but nothing stands out particularly

I'll start with some easy ones then

OK

2) Summit status

This is SCAM's domain, not ours, and it's already in progress. I don't see anything to discuss. Any questions?

Daniel, did you have anything requiring Board?

MattJ: Dobwe have SCAM?

Or is Daniel just volnteering?

i mean it is scam. but scam can’t spend 6k euro

so sooner or later we need input from board

Let's say later, we can continue that discussion until we have one or more firm quotes (I feel like we still have options)

MattJ: but only one has been reached out. I ask if Dave could do for aloft, but didnt heard back

Sounds good

Sure, not a Board issue right now though, I trust people will do what's necessary :) (and I'm happy to assist asynchronously if needed)

So let's move on

I'm here if needed for this point (but probably not)

2?

3) Editor role ✏

Kev++

> I trust people will do what's necessary Sorry I dont

emus, sorry to hear that

But people are doing things already. Is there something specific you think Board can address?

Otherwise we have a lot of items to get through, I don't see much point in using this meeting for stuff that doesn't need all Board members to be actively engaged in

MattJ: well, at least ask for official volunteers. but you said lets move on

yup

We have SCAM, that is our official team for this stuff

So, moving on

+1

Editor role: I posted about this to the members list, with a rough proposal for the future of the Editor role and the standards process in general. I think the response was quite positive, so I plan to help move that along. I'll put together a clear set of steps we need to get there, and we can start implementing them (some of them are already in progress).

Great.

So that's an action item for me

Let folks know how they can assist.

OK

4) Infrastructure/mailing lists

As I mentioned earlier, we have accepted an offer and I am just waiting for a final statement of work and an SSH key so we can get things started. If I don't hear back by early next week I'll send a ping.

Worryingly a few people appear to no longer be receiving emails from members@ due to mailman's default behaviour of disabling delivery after a certain number of bounces are received. I've not found a way to enable delivery for those members so far, without the web interface.

Excellent. Do you feel the need to share the SoW with the Board before signing?

Matt J: I can fix those.

It's possible that removing and adding them back could fix things

MattJ: Python command line required, but I have a cheat sheet.

Okay, good luck :)

Yeah!

Send me the addresses and I will see what I can do.

> MattJ: > 2023-11-02 06:18 (GMT+01:00) > Worryingly a few people appear to no longer be receiving emails from members@ due to mailman's default behaviour of disabling delivery after a certain number of bounces are received. I've not found a way to enable delivery for those members so far, without the web interface. I think there should be ways to ensure everyone is in there again

Regarding the SoW, we already agreed a budget - it was either shared on the list or in a previous meeting, so as long as the SoW does not exceed that I think we're fine to proceed.

stpeter: Maybe ask alex too?

(SoW?)

Yes, you’re right on the budget. I forgot.

Statement of Work

emus, Alex does not have access at the moment due to the lack of a web interface

thx

k

emus: I’ve been fixing mailing list issues for Alex, too. :-)

5) Last Call on XEP-0458 ("Community Code of Conduct")

no comment

That’s been started, yes. I allowed 4 weeks so we can gather plenty of feedback.

I'm a bit behind on some of my mail, but it says the last call was just issued - anything in particular to discuss?

Excellent, thanks for taking care of that

Nothing to discuss yet.

On this topic I added a reference to the document from the summit wiki page

Good idea.

It would be good to get a final approval in place before the summit, and I think that shouldn't be a problem

Agreed.

6) GSoC contingency plans / other student programs - emus

I will work diligently to address all feedback.

Thanks!

MattJ: I have no news really, besides I fear the end of GSoC (pure feeling)

Do want to discuss Outreachy?

Happy to collect other programs

Have Google said anything other than what they say every year ("GSoC hasn't been confirmed for next year" or whatever)?

arc: I am find to help to just try it

I recall we did have quite a discussion about Outreachy recently. I can't recall if it was in the context of a board meeting or not, but I recall general positivity towards trying it.

> Kev: > 2023-11-02 06:24 (GMT+01:00) > Have Google said anything other than what they say every year ("GSoC hasn't been confirmed for next year" or whatever)? Its not just that. but effectively yes.

The big challenge for us is we have to find sponsors

Kev, it's speculation I believe, but I don't think that means we shouldn't do more of this stuff regardless of GSoC

> arc: > 2023-11-02 06:25 (GMT+01:00) > The big challenge for us is we have to find sponsors And I can just call the experience people.to help me

see the pad I opened

> , it's speculation I believe, but I don't think that means we shouldn't do more of this stuff regardless of GSoC Wouldn't suggest that. I'm in favour (given enough volunteers etc.) of any of these types of things :)

> MattJ: > 2023-11-02 06:25 (GMT+01:00) > Kev, it's speculation I believe, but I don't think that means we shouldn't do more of this stuff regardless of GSoC yes

arc raises a good point about needing to find sponsors. We haven’t traditionally done a great job of that, but this is an opportunity to improve. :-)

At the moment I think we need to (slightly) prioritize sponsorship for the summit, because that's a core part of keeping the community going and keeping momentum on protocol development

It might be easier to find sponsors for 'a thing' than just throwing money at the XSF that doesn't always seem particularly good at spending it. $0.02

Kev: I very much agree.

Which is why GSoC was good, because we didn't have to do that work (which we haven't been particularly great at)

> MattJ: > 2023-11-02 06:26 (GMT+01:00) > At the moment I think we need to (slightly) prioritize sponsorship for the summit, because that's a core part of keeping the community going and keeping momentum on protocol development I can reac out to sponsor if you help me where best and how

emus, send an email with that very request to the board list - let's get a discussion thread going

Might it be an idea to share the expected and historical cost of the summit? For some transparency in why we need money, etc.

MattJ: Im sure we have alreay :)

but yes

What would be the thing we can ask money for?

Rather than a nebulous 'please give'

Kev: yes, I can put together those numbers.

stpeter: that would be great

Maybe even together with how much is usually covered by direct summit sponsors? (Without wanting to volunteer people for too much work) ✏

I know the venue has been sponsored most years other than the last, lunch is usually sponsored, etc. etc.

We have not tied sponsorships to anything in particular (Summit, FOSDEM, etc.). Most organizations that are good at marketing and raising money do that kind of thing.

Kev, last year the venue was €2250, our current quote for this year is closer to €3k (assuming slightly more people than last year)

“This snack break brought to you by Widgets Inc.”

We(XSF) definitely have had summit-specific sponsors, because I know we've(Isode) done that in the past :) ✏

That should give an idea, when many recent years the venue has been entirely provided by Cisco

We might want to ask people who know Brussels about alternative meeting spaces.

Any suggestion which companies we can ask?

> stpeter: > 2023-11-02 06:32 (GMT+01:00) > We might want to ask people who know Brussels about alternative meeting spaces. that too

Thanks.

e.g., sometimes co-working spaces have training rooms for let that are much cheaper than hotels….

I have to step away soon, so I'll try and get through the remaining items if that's okay. Summit planning details can move to xmpp:scam@muc.xmpp.org?join

Yep

MattJ: will do

stpeter: can you take.over?

7) XEP-0001 - add 'Archived' status: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1070

I raised this to get it out of the Editor's queue - happy for you to delay for a future meeting.

It's been sitting 2 years already.

I was just saying - it's been waiting some time, let's get it sorted :)

Just trying to help you move along - as you were :D

This seems to be equivalent to Historical RFCs. There’s definitely a place for those.

I raised it in the Council MUC earlier today - because although it's for Board to decide upon, ultimately it's Council that would be using it

I'm stepping away now anyway. Please leave a comment on the PR accepting/rejecting on behalf of Board and I'll do the needful (eventually).

OK, I’ll comment at the PR.

I think we generally arrived at the consensus that the current statuses suffice

I'm happy to close the meeting

Particularly 'Final' is a good way to indicate that we don't plan to work on a XEP any further

There are some conditions of 'Final', such as having implementations, but if it has no implementations I think it can easily go to one of the other statuses

But yes, if people aren't ready to vote we can discuss elsewhere and put it off until next week

MattJ: Cant we just explicitly at the top state if its outdated? ✏

nod

Next week - next time

Week?

yes, because I will stay neutral

arc, no, month

I am fine to have the voting outside of board meeting if that is possible and needed

I just used the wrong word

Daily Board meetings!

Lol

Daily board standup?

Totally!

> stpeter: > 2023-11-02 06:38 (GMT+01:00) > Daily Board meetings! :-)

Time to end the meeting :P

MattJ: we touched all points?

+1 to close

stpeter: can you add that ralph needs to do the X premium thing, or is it you Kev?

Everything except Twitter/X, which I recall took up most of the last meeting. I don't anticipate a resolution in the remaining time of this meeting.

Right.

emus: I can follow up, yes.

MattJ: Will do the premium for one year and see how we go btw KDE has the same problem

stpeter: thx, note is enough, I will

Thanks, emus!

9) Date of next

Looks like Thursday 7th December

That should work for me.

And US will have changed DST by then (it's already in the calendar)

10) Meeting close

Thanks everyone!

Right, we have only this one week that’s confusing.

Great, thanks for the efficient meeting, everyone!

5 pm UTC again right?

Kev: I still get s2s connection failed from you. Can you write me directly?

On Outreachy I recall that last time it was discussed I said that MBOA/JMP would be willing to sponsor one intern through XSF if that happens

singpolyma: Then lets try it without having read the details?

A reminder that our annual Board & Council applications are accepted until end of this week. We are still looking for at least 1 more candidate for the Council. And of course more applications to the Board are welcome as well. When you are interested to support the XSF and apply to either of those positions then please create your applications here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2023 The deadline is November 5th. When you need help then please feel free to reach out to me.

What happens if we don't get enough candidates?

IIRC the relevant bodies (Council and Board) are allowed to fill vacancies.

See https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/bylaws/ and search for “vacancies”

We conscript random people 😈

heh

> : I still get s2s connection failed from you. Can you write me directly? jabbers.one and isode.com S2S seems to be working fine for me. What error are you seeing?

Kev: can you ping me 1:1?

maybe i use the wrong id

Done.

thanks