XSF Discussion - 2023-11-11


  1. Daniel

    cal0pteryx, thank you

  2. Daniel

    at this moment in time I'd probably just get rid of the Jobs link entirely. you click and that and see "no xmpp jobs available" - that's not a very good look

  3. Daniel

    (this is in no way criticism towards the two people who tried to make this project a thing)

  4. Daniel

    in what interval are the doap files syncronized by the way?

  5. cal0pteryx

    > in what interval are the doap files syncronized by the way? Daniel: Hourly, I think. But there might be some magic on the server I'm not aware of

  6. Daniel

    cal0pteryx: I updated the Conversations doap file yesterday and the change is not reflected on the website. That's far from important or time sensitive but I was wondering if I might have done something wrong

  7. cal0pteryx

    Daniel: It links to GitHub, not Codeberg. I guess that's the problem :) I can change that later

  8. cal0pteryx

    https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/data/software.json#L364

  9. Daniel

    cal0pteryx: oh. That's an obvious mistake in hindsight

  10. cal0pteryx

    Daniel, should be up to date now: https://xmpp.org/software/conversations/

  11. Daniel

    cal0pteryx: thank you

  12. Axel R.

    cal0pteryx: I was wondering why Conversations has not been labeled advanced in every of those categories. 👍

  13. cal0pteryx

    Axel R., compliance level is automatically calculated based on Compliance Suites, see https://xmpp.org/about/compliance-suites/

  14. Axel R.

    cal0pteryx: Yes, but I guess it was labeled basic in IM before because the Doap file linked to a wrong location. Now everything looks fine. 👍

  15. cal0pteryx

    Ah, I now realize you were referring to the past :D sorry

  16. Axel R.

    > Ah, I now realize you were referring to the past :D sorry Yes. I always thought: "hm, what is missing?". So the answer was: A link to codeberg. 😃

  17. Zash

    > at this moment in time I'd probably just get rid of the Jobs link entirely. you click and that and see "no xmpp jobs available" - that's not a very good look Hm, check https://xmpp.work/feed/ at site build time and hide it if there aren't anything currently?

  18. Daniel

    Fine with me. Sounds rather complicated assuming it's just going to be empty most of the time

  19. Guus

    or: do a quick search and add a couple of jobs!

  20. Zash

    As a consultant on sick leave, I shouldn't be searching for jobs! Also what stake do I have when the service provider section is gone?

  21. Daniel

    How do I get to the service provider section by the way? I remember the was one but I can't find it

  22. Guus

    I guess pretty much the same stake as what you have discussing content of any other xmpp-related website - it builds on the ecosystem in time amounts.

  23. Guus

    It was dropped.

  24. Daniel

    Oh

  25. Daniel

    I was about to say that I'm in favor of keeping that part

  26. Daniel

    I think having a list of service providers makes a lot more sense than one of us searching for xmpp jobs on normal job sides and copy pasting the results

  27. Guus

    It serves different audiences

  28. Daniel

    Sure

  29. Daniel

    A list of service providers is pretty common on other open source ecosystems. I think Debian has it. Fdroid has it. It's easy to maintain

  30. Daniel

    And it's somewhat original content. Something you can't get from simply searching for 'xmpp' on regular job sites

  31. Guus

    The service provider section was hard to migrate/maintain on xmpp.work, and as it serves a different audience than job-seekers, I binned it.

  32. Guus

    I'm not arguing that having a provider listing doesn't have value. Quite the contrary - I've repeatedly suggested that people start adding service providers to their projects websites.

  33. Guus

    I'm not against having a generic 'xmpp service provider' website, but I suspect that prospects are much more likely seeking service providers at the source of the implementation that they're using.

  34. Daniel

    > I'm not against having a generic 'xmpp service provider' website, but I suspect that prospects are much more likely seeking service providers at the source of the implementation that they're using. I guess... Unless you want to build something on xmpp from scratch... I don't know I have my services listed on my website and that gets me plenty of traffic.

  35. Daniel

    But since you keep saying it's a different audience. Who is the audience of xmpp.work.

  36. Daniel

    But since you keep saying it's a different audience. Who is the audience of xmpp.work?

  37. Guus

    people seeking XMPP-related employment.

  38. Daniel

    OK. But why don't they just go to $genericJobsite and search for xmpp? (correct me if I'm wrong but that's pretty much how you and JC filled that site before, no?)

  39. Guus

    You might have found the source of the lack of popularity of the site. :)

  40. Guus

    The original hope was that over time, potential employers would start to post job offers specifically to xmpp.work - that way improving interaction between employers/employees. That has not materialized. At all.

  41. Daniel

    I really really don’t want to come of as rude. and yes I get that the mission was that employers would start posting. this hasn’t happened. that's why I said earlier "at this point I would consider it a failed experiment and remove (the link)"

  42. Daniel

    I don’t know if you are still super into that project I don’t want to take anything (that link) away from you. but it doesn’t sound like you are into that project either

  43. Guus

    That's not rude, that's factually correct. There is no point in referencing an empty site. Re-populating it again is on my TODO list, but it's low on there. I'm not seeing anyone else step up either, so it's likely going to remain empty for a while.

  44. Guus

    I took it over from JC, who started it, but ran into similar issues. I had a thing going with a paid intern that did the LinkedIn scraping and posting, but that fell through rather quickly.

  45. Daniel

    that's also why a suggested the service provider thing. yes I get it serves a slightly different purposes. but at least we have the people who can fill that was original content

  46. Zash

    Original Content!

  47. Daniel

    and also it's not entirely a different audience. because both are dependend on employers coming across our website

  48. Daniel

    and instead of posting a job they could (theoretically) just go to the job seeker section

  49. Guus

    If I'm going to spend effort in that site, its likely going to be the easiest path: scrape more jobs. I simply don't want to spend more time on it right now.

  50. Guus

    I don't agree with that, with regards to the audience. There's coincidental overlap, at best. Then again, not a hill for me to die on at all.

  51. Guus

    I could've added two or three job listings in the time that we had this conversation :)

  52. Daniel

    > I could've added two or three job listings in the time that we had this conversation :) sure. but that's not a sustainable solution

  53. Daniel

    anyway it looks to me like you still want to make this project so i'm going to stop suggesting to remove the link

  54. Daniel

    anyway it looks to me like you still want to make this project work so i'm going to stop suggesting to remove the link

  55. Guus

    As long as the site is empty, we probably shouldn't have a link to it.

  56. Zash

    I searched for xmpp on linkedin, none of the results actually mentioned xmpp :(

  57. Daniel

    Yeah this is only tangentially related but out of curiosity I've search a few job sites for 'xmpp' there is a shockingly low amount of results

  58. Daniel

    And of these results most mention xmpp in passing

  59. Guus

    If you set a couple of filters, you can get quite some results. Many of them only mention xmpp in a list of desirable technologies to be familiar with though

  60. Guus

    There's a lot of recurring job listings though

  61. Guus

    this one from Starface, for example

  62. Guus

    err, how do I link to Linkedin?

  63. Guus

    search for "Swift Engineer für macOS (w/m/d)" of "STARFACE GmbH"

  64. Guus

    Ayoba (Cape Town) also has XMPP client dev listings

  65. Guus

    If you're not _to_ critical (and accept any mention of XMPP), then it's doable to have one or two unique listings per day, I've found.

  66. Guus

    given that it apparently is hard for people to find these, there might be more value in having an aggregate on xmpp.work ...

  67. Zash

    Automated aggregation with a filter on "xmpp" sounds good.

  68. Guus

    yeah, but there's to much cruft (also, it's hard for me to justify the time to build that, even if I was capable of doing so)

  69. Daniel

    > Ayoba (Cape Town) also has XMPP client dev listings Great. Now I spent way too much time figuring out what Ayoba is

  70. Daniel

    Heavily based on kontalk.net apparently

  71. mdosch

    Many years ago when there was no usable xmpp client on android kontalk was a pretty good alternative to whatsapp. I just find it sad, that they never managed to really federate with vanilla xmpp (I exchanged some messages with a friend on kontalk and me using xmpp but it was painful) and just become another xmpp client and part of the ecosystem. Last time I had a look at kontalk it looked like slowly fading out. AFAIR the dev said he doesn't develop it further and just keeps the servers running as long as the expenses are covered by donations.

  72. Daniel

    Well I guess the developer is in luck because apparently some South African MNO took the code and grew it to 25m users

  73. Daniel

    Quicksy is Kontalk done right and nobody wants that either 🤷‍♂️

  74. Zash

    Tell that to the Prav folks

  75. Daniel

    They'll find out soon enough

  76. Zash

    Let's hope they found a market where it works :)

  77. mdosch has 3 quicksy users (and would have 5 if there was quicksy iOS)…

  78. Axel R.

    > mdosch has 3 quicksy users (and would have 5 if there was quicksy iOS)… I also know some Quicksy users. But some already switched to Conversations.

  79. Zash

    Is "nobody wants that" ever accurate? :)

  80. Daniel

    I think you are all talking about the same group of about 10 total users

    😃 1
  81. Axel R.

    > I think you are all talking about the same group of about 10 total users 😃

  82. Zash

    What was the theory / reason for making Quicksy in the first place? "WhatsApp and Signal get away with phone numbers, maybe people really want that" or so?

  83. singpolyma

    Daniel: is MAU for quicky really that low? I didn't expect it to be huge, but wow

  84. pep.

    WhatsApp and Signal also have a marketing department (throw Snowden somewhere in there too)

  85. mdosch

    Get normies to xmpp as easy as to WhatsApp and make the ecosystem grow, I guess.

  86. Daniel

    A) to shut up the people who kept saying that xmpp would be successful if only it had phone number registration B) because there were so many bad implementations of phone number based xmpp (Kontalk and other) I wanted to demonstrate how to do it correctly

  87. mdosch

    To B) What is the difference between kontalk and quicksy regarding phone numbers?

  88. Zash

    Isn't kontalk like a big clustered but non-federated XMPP service?

  89. Zash

    I was also once contacted by people who wanted to build a similar clustered but non-federated thing, which didn't interest me much.

  90. Daniel

    > To B) > What is the difference between kontalk and quicksy regarding phone numbers? No pointless hashing for one. So it better interops with the rest of the network

  91. mdosch

    It is. I managed to talk to a kontalk user from my prosody but we had to take some hurdles.

  92. Axel R.

    I think the basic idea is good. Easy onboarding for new users who can federate with the whole XMPP network. But it is a bit more complex to explain the main advantages of XMPP when recommending Quicksy. The federation aspect is not as easy to explain when service and client are not individually selectable. So: Today, I try to directly recommend Conversations instead of Quicksy.

  93. mdosch

    Some people get an invite to my server, others get sent to quicksy. Unfortunately some people I'd just send to quicksy have an iDevice so they get an invite and lots of explanation.

  94. Zash

    Invites seem to be working pretty well.

  95. emus

    > Daniel: > 2023-11-11 09:39 (GMT+01:00) > Quicksy is Kontalk done right and nobody wants that either 🤷‍♂️ I want it :-)

  96. emus

    I onboard anyone with an android phone this way

  97. emus

    Btw would be great to list it under xmpp.org/software as well

  98. Fishbowler

    > yeah, but there's to much cruft As a tester who's recently been actively looking for XMPP work, yes. There's much cruft. Appcent posting the same few job listings every 22 hours is a bunch of it.

  99. singpolyma

    There's always every job at zoom ;)

  100. Fishbowler

    I don't know if it's a biproduct of the drought of XMPP roles, or just a shift in the industry to suck-it-and-see SRE roles, but in a couple of months of looking, I'm yet to find a single professional testing role in XMPP. I very much doubt that folk that like XMPP are also folk who hate software quality or who have silver bullets for that kind of thing.