XSF Discussion - 2023-11-16

If Twitter is now "X", we should rename it to TwitterMPP.

> List-Subscribe: <mailto:standards-join@xmpp.org> > E.g. that method should still work, I hope. That did work indeed. Thanks Zash!

Is there a way to set pronouns without just changing the nickname?

Not that I know of? I think you can add pronouns to a vcard though?

That might be chicken/egg: If it's not put in by anyone yet, it's less likely that it's being displayed.

Squeaky Latex Folf: indeed vcard may be the place. I dont know of many clients displaying it though :/ (like Mastodon would on the user profile) ✏

Movim and gajim have GUIs for the vcard.

And slidge-based gateways fill the contacts’ vcards with what’s available from the gateway network (eg, the phone number of the contact, which is mandatory on some walled gardens).

profanity can display vcards

Does vcard have unnamed fields btw? Or are they all named?

(In which case we'd need to add one?)

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6351#section-5.1 ?

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/vcarddav/FCjVznQHsmtPPLmv2z69OcxL8u0/

And I note that vCard4 does already have freeform text for gender identity: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6350#section-6.2.7

Yeah that's a good start :)

There's no "free form" properties? They always need to be defined? Kinda like what we do with 0004?

pep., yeah. You mean like Mastodon's key/value thing in the profile? I don't think vCard has anything like that (apart from the existing free-form text stuff, like notes)

Do `NOTE;TYPE=arbitrary:whatever` or something ?

Mmm, yeah, that would work

MattJ, yeah like Mastodon's key/value pairs

Multiple URLs too

Even though I'd prefer a standard field, maybe there can be something in the meantime people can use

I've often see it put in the room nickname so it's pretty obvious to people, but it's not available in 1:1 then, and also certainly not the best place as nicknames can be ellipsed, and the info of the pronouns alone can't be extracted for other uses

Is't there a gender field, pretty sure you can put free form text in it, besides the predefined values

Matt linked it above

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6350#section-6.2.7

Does vcard even have a pronouns field, or a gender, sex, sexuality, or species field? Last time I checked it had none of those

See the link just posted

How does the first sentence of https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6121#section-8.5.1 relate to anonymous users?

They technically don't have a user account - but I would think it'd be desirable to route requests to their online session.

Guus: I would say they have an account for the duration of the connection

I like your square hole round peg solution.

(even potentially for longer than the _connection_ if stream management is involved)

Should SM be loaded with sasl anon? As it's not possible to reclaim the session, is it?

Even though it can be useful during the session I guess..

excellent question

stream management resumption with SASL ANON would be useful though for mobile clients.

Maybe with FAST?

Hard to prove you own the "account" with ANON

The server can give you a token you can use to resume it on a following session ✏

Then what is the definition of an "anonymous account" once it persists beyond a single connection?

"You used sasl anon"? :x

You didn't have to register a specific username or password before using it, and you can upgrade to a "stable" account reusing that token if you so choose :p

(throwing random ideas)

Terminology wise, I'd think that anything that's an 'account' is somehow re-usable.

Did expected the map catched so many reactions ^^ https://fosstodon.org/@xmpp/111410894859920061

*Voting update:* According to my records 24 XSF members have voted for the current board & council elections. When you are a member and have not voted yet, then please take some time and do so. If you have not yet voted, please send a message to xmpp:memberbot@xmpp.org. If you have problems with memberbot please contact me directly.

Voted. Thank you Alex!

Alex: Thanks for reminding!

Someone talented should write a response about how XMPP is not only much cheaper in cost but actually free and much more sustainable and private than relying on 1 non-profit running a closed source server https://signal.org/blog/signal-is-expensive/

thats a lie though xmpp is not "free"

it is more sustainable due to its distributed nature though i agree

I'm OK to get a free beer once in a while

There is no free lunch

^

What value do you put on sovereignty tho?

A negative one

No borders and all

on tech sovereignty a lot personally :)

hence why i like xmpp and i am on it

Oh shush. Digital sovereignty.

sigital dovereignty

XMPP is free in terms of specs and software (multiple implementations of each of clients and servers) which is *way* more than can be said of signal, that is far more sustainable

To me, digital sovereignty is invaluable. You cannot put a price on it.

Didn't Signal actually start publishing the source of their server again, after not doing so for some crypto reasons.

it's not always free in terms of cost to run, but very cheap or free if you run other things

> XMPP is free in terms of specs and software (multiple implementations of each of clients and servers) which is *way* more than can be said of signal, that is far more sustainable Just saw some figures that said Signal costs about $14 million per year to run. ↺

ah we mean "free software" or whatever

sure

and it doesn't rely on "donating to a non-profit" just everyone running their own server for family+friends

root, that article says $50 million per year

well xsf could use more money /shrug

I bet the entire XMPP network combined doesn't cost that

let's ignore the fact that it might have less users :)

What's that per user?

sssssshhhhhhh

> root, that article says $50 million per year Someone did some math because they questioned it being that high. Still, either number is massive. ↺

Zash, last I looked signal chucks some source code over the wall for clients and servers months after it's supposedly been in the wild

you can't run the server at all, and you can't run the client as FOSS without a lot of working stripping proprietary libraries out

the thing to take from this imo is not if signal deservers or not the money necessirily

its that stuff can't be free

mastodon, activitypub stuff, peertube

are all starting to have the same problems

and a lot of xmpp clients could use more funding

and servers

codeberg has had scaling issues too. but apparently it is sustainable still

eh, I think the takeaway is centralization bad, federation good

codeberg was always bound to just be another github if successful, that's not good

they are, currently, better than github values-wise and such sure, but that can always change instantly

we should all be running our own git "forges" or whatever, and passing around patches via email or xmpp, thankfully this was built into git from day 1

moparisthebest, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo it has to be activitypub!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

otherwise it's not federation!

/s

it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world

> eh, I think the takeaway is centralization bad, federation good To me, its less about federation, and more about ability to run your own stuff. I know this is playing at semantics, but that is my sentiment. Federated services for the most part do fulfill this criteria for me. ↺

federation is what allows you to run your own stuff though, like IRC is "free" and "open" and you can run your own, but it's still centralized, when freenode gets bought by an evil prince everything can go to hell overnight

pedantic time? federation doesn't do that, it lets us talk to each other even if *everyone* runs their own stuff :)

this especially lets us disagree on how to run the stuff, while still being reachable!

moparisthebest, fwiw everyone could be part of the freenode federation. Just like there are many different XMPP networks. Apparently a single open network and many closed ones

There could be other networks with various (allow/block) rules for federation

IRC doesn't do federation, it does yolo-global-clustering

Ok then

Almost like Matrix! :P

But the various network thing stands. It's not because there is say a liberxmpp network and a freenompp network that it's not a federated network ✏

right, IRC you choose who to peer with, and it gives them 100% godmode on the network, and you have to set it up manually, with XMPP, by default, you can contact anyone else on the public federated network, which is what I'm talking about whenever I mentioned the XMPP network or XMPP federation :)

Happy to hear suggestions for tweets