XSF Discussion - 2023-11-25

Hey o/ Is there any page or group chat about https://nlnet.nl/project/XMPP-MLS/ Or a document or anything

> The project's own website:

That couldn't be less helpful

yeah.. and its one of the more interesting and actually ecosystem wide changes

so some website or document or something, anything, would be nice

there are no names either

Also some rationale would be nice, like is anything else implementing this? Matrix is not

Well they tried and had to modify it which makes it 100% useless for interop

MLS? matrix were involved from the beginning with MLS

i think element empolyees are in the RFC even

and the plan is still to implement it afaik

As I understand it matrix already tried and failed to implement it, they went forward with changes to MLS

iirc MLS requires in order delivery and matrix can't handle this or something?

Great. Same way that olm was broken.

I wonder if it's just easier to wait until others implement MLS and then one can run a transport, once the protocol /api to the services using MLS is clear. Shure, you'll loose e2ee that way... But easier...

> Hey o/ > Is there any page or group chat about > https://nlnet.nl/project/XMPP-MLS/ > > Or a document or anything I think the idea is to produce a document in the process

> I wonder if it's just easier to wait until others implement MLS and then one can run a transport, once the protocol /api to the services using MLS is clear. > Shure, you'll loose e2ee that way... But easier... there is also a pending RFC for federated MLS

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mls-federation/

> > Hey o/ > > Is there any page or group chat about > > https://nlnet.nl/project/XMPP-MLS/ > > > > Or a document or anything > I think the idea is to produce a document in the process i mean sure. but i thought we would see a name or a room or something. or reuse the e2ee room. not this secrecy. but maybe just me

MLS does not require perfectly in order. How much it needs is tuneable

MLS does not require perfectly in order. How much it needs is tuneable

> MSavoritias fae.ve: > 2023-11-25 06:46 (GMT+01:00) > Hey o/ > Is there any page or group chat about > https://nlnet.nl/project/XMPP-MLS/ > Or a document or anything who created this?

MattJ

singpolyma: According to matrix: > One of the biggest hurdles is that MLS assumes that epochs (essentially, the state of an MLS tree in between updates to the tree) have a linear ordering. Here: https://arewemlsyet.com/

Hmm, this MLS site seems to only care about the Matrix…

It's not an MLS site, it's a Matrix site

Yeah

That comment was made in context of this comment: > iirc MLS requires in order delivery and matrix can't handle this or something?

Hence the link

Right

MSavoritias fae.ve: yes, true, epochs must be in order. But inside an epoch there is more tolerance

I wonder if the federated mls rfc was considered

For xmpp or matrix

To me the big advantage of MLS is there's a standards track spec, it's not condrolled by one entity or reference implementation. Downside is it's still PFS and that's not optional so OX is probably still best when you need to not

Yeah MLS is for omemo. There is nothing better than OX for non PFS

singpolyma, or do PFS and sync old messages between clients (:

And then there are "one device only" users who lose/break their device, reinstall and scream in agony "where is my history?"… (Maybe even the same who advocate for PFS, not knowing the implications, because some tech blog says it's a MUST).

:)

Of course we all want to have our cookies and eat them too

mdosch: oh, you've met my customers! 😉