XSF Discussion - 2024-01-04

  1. Squeaky Latex Folf


  2. rewtkid


  3. Fishbowler


  4. Guus

    Kev, are you around this week? Is there anything I can do to speed up acceptance of a protoxep in https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1312 ?

  5. Tobi

    Does anybody know of plans to standardize use of MLS (RFC 9420) in XMPP? Saw a nice overview talk about it https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12064-rfc_9420_or_how_to_scale_end-to-end_encryption_with_messaging_layer_security

  6. MattJ


  7. Tobi

    Is that a running project or just a proposal for a grant that people can apply to?

  8. MattJ

    It's an accepted grant proposal

  9. Tobi


  10. vanitasvitae


  11. manday

    i love the idea just wth is it with people and rust?!

  12. manday

    something abi stable would be much better to promote by a ref impl, no?

  13. manday

    or is that some moz thing?

  14. moparisthebest

    manday: why would ABI matter at all?

  15. manday

    because an unstable abi forbids shared objects among other things and if there is a plethora of normal alternatives why rust

  16. moparisthebest

    manday: what compiled languages do you think define a stable ABI

  17. moparisthebest

    not C++

  18. manday

    a web impl like js would have gone great with the cpp one

  19. manday

    so why choose rust

  20. manday

    > manday: what compiled languages do you think define a stable ABI well everything with ccc

  21. moparisthebest

    Like I said c++ defines no ABI

  22. manday

    cpp. c. objc.

  23. moparisthebest

    Anyway to answer your question, because rust solves real problems that no other languages do

  24. manday

    well thats a bold claim. ill read up on it then.

  25. manday


  26. Kev

    And if you can be a stable ABI with C, you can do the same with Rust, FWIW.

  27. manday

    huh? but moz doesnt do that? i ve yet to see rust sos

  28. manday

    they could but...

  29. Kev

    If you're writing Rust for Rust, you don't care about the stable ABI.

  30. Kev

    If you're writing Rust for integration into other languages, you can wrap a stable ABI if you so choose.

  31. jonas’

    `extern "C"`

  32. jonas’

    as simple as that.

  33. moparisthebest

    You can definitely expose and use C ABI from rust yes

  34. moparisthebest

    Also Mozilla hasn't had anything to do with rust for years? Not sure why that's relevant

  35. Kev

    > as simple as that. Well. Kinda. You do need to write the interface to be consumed as such.

  36. jonas’


  37. jonas’

    that's true whenever you touch the stable C-like ABI from any language.

  38. jonas’

    be it python, or rust, or golang, or ...

  39. Kev


  40. manday

    > Also Mozilla hasn't had anything to do with rust for years? Not sure why that's relevant my bad.

  41. jonas’

    Kev, oh and of course the rust compiler will yell at you when you try to do things with extern "C" which cannot work, unlike when you do the same in Pascal for instance.

  42. Kev

    You don't need to convince me of the merits of Rust compile checking.

  43. Kev

    After 20+ years of C++, I'm in camp Rust now.

  44. moparisthebest

    *cough* xmpp:rust@chat.moparisthe.best?join *cough* :)

  45. manday

    > If you're writing Rust for Rust, you don't care about the stable ABI. the user may care though if they get a 10mb exec because is statically compiles every lib into the elf

  46. manday

    EVERY elf

  47. manday

    what, SOs are too 1995? I think they have merit

  48. moparisthebest

    They don't

  49. Kev

    They do, but I think they're overstated :)

  50. moparisthebest

    Static is the way to go, even with C

  51. manday

    why? because rust?

  52. Zash

    Because all old ideas are new again

  53. Zash

    I bet in a few years, someone will invent dynamic linking ... for Docker images

  54. Zash

    It's gonna be the most amazing new invention!!!

  55. manday


  56. Zash

    Totally revolutionary

  57. Zash

    Just like Rust!

  58. Zash

    Now can we get back to XMPP?

  59. moparisthebest

    Shared libs haven't even saved you ram for 20 years because of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization etc, relic from the past

  60. manday

    Yey, let's go back to big, monlothic ELF blobs with all and the kitchen-sink and infinite redundancies. Why libraries at all. Let's bundle it all; diskspace is cheap anyway...

  61. Zash

    None of this is related to XMPP anymore

  62. Zash

    Please take the static vs dynlib debate somewhere else

    👍 1
  63. kurisu

    > Yey, let's go back to big, monlothic ELF blobs with all and the kitchen-sink and infinite redundancies. Why libraries at all. Let's bundle it all; diskspace is cheap anyway... Yes.

  64. Alex

    Happy Birthday Jabber/XMPP 🎉🥳

  65. debacle

    Alex Almost forgot it. Today is the 25th anniversary of Jabber!

  66. debacle

    XSF should post something on their social media channels, i.e. Mastodon and Movim and Libervia :-)

  67. singpolyma


  68. debacle


  69. Alex


  70. cal0pteryx

    that posts links to http://jabber.org/ which is "connection refused" because it misses a redirect to www. :)

  71. manday

    reading the comments under the slashdot article is quite entertaining

  72. lbocquet

    Happy Birthday! One year more!

  73. Arne

    Great, happy birthday Jabber/XMPP!

  74. neox

    Happy birthday 😊️

  75. root


  76. emus

    *Board meeting* in a few minutes https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board-Meeting-2024-01-04

  77. stpeter

    Yep, I’m here!

  78. MattJ


  79. ralphm bangs gavel

  80. ralphm

    0. Welcome

  81. emus

    Happy Birthday XMPP! 🎉️

  82. ralphm

    Happy New Year! Also happy 25th anniversary!

  83. ralphm

    Who do we have today?

  84. edwinm


  85. emus

    Nicola is missing yet

  86. ralphm

    In any case we have quorum.

  87. ralphm

    Who can take minutes?

  88. Kev

    I'm also up in the peanut gallery :)

  89. emus

    I can take minutes

  90. ralphm


  91. ralphm

    1. Appointment of officers

  92. ralphm

    To confirm the votes on our mailing list, Alex is confirmed for another term as Secretary.

  93. MattJ

    nicola, ping

  94. ralphm

    Thanks Alex!

  95. ralphm

    2. XMPP Summit / FOSDEM

  96. Alex


  97. stpeter


  98. ralphm

    I've seen some discussion on the mailing list. From what I understand there is a question on whether we can allow more people in on the Summit?

  99. emus

    Yes CC: Daniel

  100. stpeter

    I see no reason not to.

  101. MattJ

    I don't think it's *really* a question, we're not going to exclude you from the summit :)

  102. stpeter


  103. ralphm

    Oh, right, I was 21st :-)

  104. emus

    Well, its a question about capacity and costs

  105. ralphm

    What is the maximum capacity?

  106. emus

    I think 25 - Daniel can you help?

  107. MattJ

    We can negotiate a larger capacity with the hotel, I'm sure

  108. emus

    We may ask for a different room or more seats at the side

  109. ralphm

    As Peter mentioned both here and on the mailing list, I don't think we should be excluding people.

  110. MattJ

    Next year we just need to remember how many people sign up in January

  111. ralphm

    I am perfectly happy to invest in this.

  112. singpolyma

    Can probably have a couple sit on the floor if needed 😉

  113. ralphm

    MattJ: in many years it was all of them.

  114. MattJ

    That's real-time!

  115. Kev

    [Side note, people not signing up until the location etc. is confirmed is also a thing as people doing things last minute]

  116. emus

    (Next year we should improve the organisation at all)

  117. edwinm

    (Ah, our yearly resolution ;-))

  118. stpeter


  119. emus

    edwinm, no seriously

  120. MattJ

    He was serious :P

  121. ralphm

    emus: you must be new around here. Kidding aside, yes we should, and no we usually don't.

  122. Daniel

    The room has a maximum capacity of 25. However we told the Thon that we are going to be 18. The question is if we should officially raise that number and to what

  123. Daniel

    From the pictures it looks like it might be a bit cramped with 25. I don't know if there is a number x after which they might put us into a larger / nicer room

  124. ralphm

    Daniel: can you ask Thon if going beyond 25 is a problem and if that affects the costs more than linearly.

  125. stpeter


  126. ralphm

    And we have bean bags if needed

  127. Daniel

    I don't think it will influence cost more than linear.

  128. Daniel

    I think the room that we currently have won't fit many bean bags

  129. Alex

    those seem to be the rooms they offer: https://www.thonhotels.com/conference/belgium/brussels/thon-hotel-eu/??gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAy9msBhD0ARIsANbk0A_W9T-Ylmlemo9w996dI372sjqAdXHN_h23-wkfH69Pt8obohaqQtYaAilIEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

  130. ralphm

    You'd be amazed how much room you can win if you stack tables. However, maybe indeed they do have other rooms that are (slightly) larger.

  131. MattJ

    Well, we currently have 27 people signed up, and we have to assume more are coming

  132. MattJ

    So I think it's worth requesting (and obviously paying) enough for a larger room

  133. ralphm

    Daniel: which of the rooms did we discuss with them so far?

  134. ralphm

    MattJ, indeed

  135. Daniel

    ralphm: Italy

  136. ralphm

    Daniel: ok, so if you can ask for the availability of larger rooms, we can plan accordingly.

  137. MattJ

    > A wired internet cable is mandatory to handle online connexion. The cable will be added in case of hybrid event (additional +200.00€) ?!

  138. MattJ

    That's one expensive cable

  139. Daniel

    I think they will have larger rooms. Give me a number of people I should request?

  140. Daniel


  141. Daniel


  142. singpolyma

    27 arlready signed up so probably 40

  143. emus

    Sign up =/= booked

  144. Kev

    (I think it's 26 signed up, line 27 is the sentinel)

  145. emus

    I would go for 35, otherwise it will explode

  146. emus

    in costs

  147. ralphm

    I'd be surprised (but happy) if we'd reach 40.

  148. ralphm

    If we do, that's not something I'd be trying to curtail.

  149. ralphm

    Is anyone other than emus worried about the costs as a factor?

  150. MattJ

    'France' supposedly seats 35 in U configuration, 'Germany' 40. I think that 35 would be a safe enough at this point, and the room probably large enough for any extras to find somewhere.

  151. MattJ

    A room too large starts to become inconvenient for group discussions

  152. ralphm


  153. stpeter

    ralphm: we’ve had some success with sponsorships, so I’m less concerned about costs now.

  154. MattJ

    I'm not worried about the costs at this point

  155. emus

    Please remind also the XSF Dinner regarding costs

  156. stpeter

    This is our flagship event, let’s make it a success.

  157. ralphm

    Ok, then let's take MattJ's suggestion.

  158. MattJ

    I mean, I don't want to overspend unnecessarily, but I'm not worried about extending to 30-40 people if we have those people who want to attend

  159. emus

    I am not against more people, i just want to raise the points

  160. MattJ

    Yep, it's a valid concern

  161. stpeter

    emus: much appreciated :-)

  162. ralphm

    emus: other costs are indeed the Dinner (which we usually find sponsors for) and the transport costs for our FOSDEM gear.

  163. Daniel

    OK. I'm going to reach out to Thon EU and ask if they can change the offer to 35 people

  164. MattJ

    But if we're going to spend our money on anything, the summit has to be it. And if it kicks us into seeking sponsorship more reliably, that's all the better.

  165. emus

    Thanks Daniel

  166. ralphm

    Additionally we've tried to previously offset this with swag. I am not sure if that's been discussed, but I'd be happy to look into that again.

  167. Kev

    Could always ask for people to pay for their own dinner this year. Although it's a great social occasion, in terms of importance to the XSF, I don't think it's on the same page as the Summit itself :)

  168. MattJ

    Worth noting, is that since we last had a meeting, Isode have offered to sponsor £3000, which is a large portion of the costs

  169. stpeter

    Thanks, Isode!

  170. Kev

    Could always ask for people to pay for their own dinner this year. Although it's a great social occasion, in terms of importance to the XSF I don't think it's on the same page as the Summit itself :)

  171. emus


  172. ralphm

    Thanks, Isode!

  173. stpeter

    Tigase has also renewed their sponsorship.

  174. emus


  175. edwinm


  176. MattJ

    That's great news, thanks to Tigase too :)

  177. ralphm


  178. MattJ

    So yes, we have plenty of people interested in seeing the summit happen and supporting it, let's just do it

  179. emus

    yes, lets move on. I would like to give Daniel also the confirmation to take the room once offered

  180. ralphm

    So, as all the gear is in my attic, I'll arrange for a van again. Additionally, I'd be happy to call Auberge Bretonne for our annual dinner.

  181. MattJ

    Thanks ralphm

  182. ralphm

    3. GSoC

  183. ralphm


  184. emus

    I want to apply being GSOC admin again

  185. emus

    if they take us this year

  186. ralphm


  187. emus

    And happy to have a backup as I will try also for Outreachy

  188. MattJ

    +1, thanks emus

  189. ralphm

    4. XEP-0001 Archived status

  190. emus

    I acutally still had something on 2. if that was sponsoring

  191. ralphm

    I had a look at this proposal, but I don't see the need. Isn't this just Deprecated?

  192. ralphm

    emus: can we do it at AOB?

  193. emus

    I would like to reach out to the third party sponsors with this and try to get new contacts

  194. emus

    Well, why is it depreecated?

  195. emus

    ah oka yes we can do it at AOB

  196. Kev

    (Editor passed this on, because that's what Editor does)

  197. ralphm

    My question is if Archived == Deprecated and we don't need to do a thing.

  198. MattJ

    I thought we already discussed this, but I must have been mistaken

  199. ralphm

    I don't remember, but if we did, does that match my conclusion? If so, let's just close the PR.

  200. Kev

    It won't interfere with the process if you want to just leave a comment and close it.

  201. MattJ

    Oh yes, we did: https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2023-11-02#2023-11-02-03316c40b2b1c379

  202. MattJ

    and yes, I've spoken to nobody who really thinks it needs to happen

  203. ralphm

    Ok, I'll close it.

  204. stpeter


  205. MattJ


  206. ralphm

    5. Sponsors

  207. ralphm

    Given that this was on "Returning Business" it turns out that we can discuss your point here, emus :-)

  208. emus

    > I would like to reach out to the third party sponsors with this and try to get new contacts

  209. emus

    People said its worthless, I am fine to spend time on this

  210. stpeter

    emus: no objections here!

  211. emus

    Then we at least tried

  212. stpeter

    I don’t think it’s worthless, but it might have a low probability of success.

  213. stpeter


  214. ralphm

    It never hurts to contact people.

  215. emus

    stpeter, have you reached out to more companies?

  216. emus


  217. stpeter

    I reached out to Tigase (they renewed), Process One (discussions underway), CommuniGate (they no longer use XMPP in their product), and Jitsi/8x8 (have not heard back yet).

  218. emus

    Okay thanks, great

  219. emus

    Anyone else had interactions we should know of?

  220. stpeter

    I will also reach out to one or more people at Zoom.

  221. emus

    That would be really appreciated

  222. ralphm


  223. ralphm

    Anything else on sponsors?

  224. emus

    Not from my side yet

  225. ralphm

    Looking at the clock, I'll move on to AOB

  226. emus

    stpeter, can you give us an update on the fincances?

  227. ralphm

    6. AOB

  228. emus

    emus is ✔️

  229. emus

    Matt? stpeter?

  230. stpeter

    emus: yes I can, but not immediately - I will create a 2023 finance summary in the next week or so

  231. stpeter

    but if you want the bank balance, I can give you that

  232. emus

    (and maybe also the tax deductilbe stuff)

  233. ralphm

    Thanks, stpeter

  234. Kev

    I'll happily take the bank balance :D

  235. emus

    Nah, just an update

  236. emus

    Kev, yes see ^

  237. ralphm

    Kev: ahem

  238. ralphm

    7. Date of Next

  239. ralphm

    Given that +1 month is at the Summit, I suggest we skip or postpone.

  240. stpeter

    Current balance is $18,290.20

  241. emus

    Nah, personal board meeting 🙂

  242. emus

    Thanks Peter

  243. stpeter

    ralphm: wfm

  244. ralphm

    Ok, skip it is.

  245. ralphm

    8. Close

  246. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  247. moparisthebest

    stpeter: while I can catch you here I'd really like your input as XEP-0156 author here if possible: https://mail.jabber.org/hyperkitty/list/standards@xmpp.org/message/3O4V7VC4C5LAI2W5334EGS7ZDMGFUBBN/ thank you!

  248. stpeter

    Did we talk about XEP-0458?

  249. emus


  250. emus

    but what is then the next date

  251. emus

    7th March

  252. stpeter

    yes, March

  253. stpeter

    It would be nice to have XEP-0458 in place before the Summit.

  254. emus

    Thu, 7th Mar 5 pm UTC / 6 pm CET

  255. stpeter

    But if needed we can handle that on the mailing list, because Nicola is not here anyway.

  256. ralphm

    stpeter: I haven't followed up. Is it just voting now?

  257. stpeter

    Yes, just voting.

  258. stpeter

    Last Call ended in November, XEP was updated to reflect feedback (only from Guus).

  259. stpeter

    But we can handle via email.

  260. ralphm


  261. ralphm

    Let's do that.

  262. stpeter

    I’ll start a thread. Thanks!

  263. MattJ

    I agree about getting it in place for the summit. It's been in the half-exists state for too long.

  264. ralphm

    Can I close?

  265. MattJ

    +1 to closing

  266. emus


  267. ralphm bangs gavel

  268. MattJ

    Thanks all!

  269. emus

    👍️ see you at the Summit

  270. stpeter

    Should we vote on the member@ list or the board@ list? For the sake of transparency, I’d suggest the former. (The Board doesn’t vote very often, so we don’t have much precedent.)

  271. stpeter

    (I suppose it doesn’t make much difference.)

  272. ralphm

    In any case it will enter public record by confirmation in the next Board meeting. Just like I did just now with Alex.

  273. MattJ

    In a past term we resolved to use members@ as much as possible

  274. ralphm


  275. MattJ

    Except for noisy scheduling stuff or things that are necessarily private

  276. stpeter

    Done and I voted +1 on the list.

  277. emus

    Hey all "old folks", Is Jeremy Miller still active or present in any social media?

  278. singpolyma

    emus: yes

  279. singpolyma


  280. emus

    I see, we seem to need a bluesky account^^

  281. emus


  282. Kev

    Why is XMPP only Doing those things until today? :)

  283. moparisthebest

    > I see, we seem to need a bluesky account^^ 👎 to supporting more closed platforms

  284. singpolyma

    Not a closed platform 🙂

  285. moparisthebest

    "promising to open it one day" does not an open platform make

  286. singpolyma

    I expect an activitypub gateway is not far off so it may be fine to wait for that, but depends on goals of course. Certainly an indieweb gateway will happen very soon at least

  287. moparisthebest

    What does any of that have to do with it being another closed platform?

  288. moparisthebest

    That's like saying "but Facebook and Twitter have XMPP gateways" 10 years ago? Haven't we learned anything?

  289. singpolyma

    Well, such gateways can only exsit between two open federated platforms 🙂 but also I meant it more as so maybe we don't need to do anything any atproto people will just follow the mastodon directly

  290. moparisthebest

    So is it an open federated platform? Where are the open servers and clients? Where is the spec? Last looked they "promised to open it soon" and I closed the tab because that's worthless

  291. singpolyma

    specs are https://atproto.com/specs/atp

  292. moparisthebest

    > The production network will open to federation soon.

  293. moparisthebest closes useless trash tab once again

  294. singpolyma

    lol. whatever. it's the only group I know of seriously working on this stuff 🤷‍♂️

  295. moparisthebest

    Again, 👎 to supporting closed crap like bluesky (opinion may change in the future in reaction to if they keep their promises)

  296. singpolyma

    you're free to run your own node on the federated system now, but no one will talk to you yet haha. that's why the gateways are all running on the test net

  297. MSavoritias fae.ve

    > lol. whatever. it's the only group I know of seriously working on this stuff 🤷‍♂️ seriously working on what?

  298. moparisthebest

    I also don't see any links at all about where/how the spec is developed, a spec thrown over a wall isn't an open spec either, I admit I didn't look hard though

  299. mdosch

    > you're free to run your own node on the federated system now, but no one will talk to you yet haha. that's why the gateways are all running on the test net Ah, signal like. You _can_ run a server but it's useless.

  300. emus

    > Kev: > 2024-01-04 08:22 (GMT+01:00) > Why is XMPP only Doing those things until today? :) There is a second sentence 😃

  301. Alex

    you need an invite code emus?

  302. emus

    Yeah saw that^^

  303. stpeter

    emus: Jeremie likes to say that his main social network is GitHub.

  304. emus

    good to know

  305. emus

    I think this is a new record on Mastodon. And its just within a few hours:

  306. emus


  307. stpeter

    (Jeremie is or was an advisor to the BlueSky team, which is why he has an account - I’m not sure how often he uses it.)