XSF Discussion - 2024-01-18

A kind reminder to XMPP projects to list ideas if they want to participate at GSoC 2024. https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Google_Summer_of_Code_2024

Argh. I've had a "Your subscription has been disabled on the members@xmpp.org mailing list" again, apparently due to bounces. I've created an account on Postorius which has picked up my existing subscriptions and I've re-enabled them. If this happens again, will Postorius give me some feedback on the bouncing?

Fishbowler, just got a couple of emails regarding this. You are not the only member that got disabled

Suspect it will have been triggered by the GSoC email putting some folk over a threshold. I've been able to self-serve a solution, I think

receiving your own initial presence should mean that all offline messages have been received, no? is this actually specificied somewhere?

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0160.html doesn't seem to say that explicitly at least

neither does the rfc I think

but it is a thing that servers do? I'm not imagining this?

rfc6121 just refers to xep-0160

I wonder how else one would best determine the end of offline message delivery. a ping? stream managment <r/>?

From reading Prosody's mod_presence, I'm not sure if it reflects initial presence after offline messages

Yeah it reflects back first, then broadcasts your presence to contacts, then offline messages. ✏

Daniel, why do you need to know?

Pretty sure there is no way to tell offline messages apart from live ones

Does there need to be a difference vs delayed messages that happened to be delayed for some reason so they're delivered just as you come online?

Yes I have a bunch of incoming a/v calls

And I want to wait till the end of the queue to make a ring/no ring decision

Instead of having a bunch of propose/retract that all cancel each other out

Bind2 and disable offline messages, heh

For users that don't have MAM

It already doesn't really happen on a lot of MAM setups

So rfc6121 does talk about broadcasting initial presence to contacts before broadcasting to your own resources including the originating client, but it's not clear that it must happen in that order.

Nothing about offline messages there tho

Daniel, while hacky, a ping (199 or 198) after initial presence should do it. Postponing a short timeout every time a message comes in (especially a <delay>'d one) might be sensible too.

yeah i'll probably just do the ping

Do we have somewhere to make a note for if we ever do a rfc6121bis ?

or maybe xep-0160 update?

or deprecate offline messages in favor of mam!

and then go full circle with the per-device delivery tracking future thing

the "problem" with MAM in it's current form is that we don’t have a way to remove messages from the server in a timely manner if/when all clients have received it

that's the main reason some of my customers still use offline messages

That's what can be enabled via {SASL,BIND}2 device tracking :)

yes. hopefully. that's why i said "in it's current form"

Right :)

I guess the rest of the problem that we don't really have a point where a connection is ready is losing relevance, being mostly about the async delivery of presence from remote servers that can take a while to settle.

Who is going to tell stpeter that nlnet already funded several XMPP projects?

Did you just?

Not sure, is he reading here?

Context?

The members list. Got it

Is there still no way to get re-added to the members list after mailman took me out?

mathieui: sure, any admin can add you. I don't think we allow public signup to the list

I was able to register an account on https://mail.jabber.org/postorius/ this morning, using my registered email address and re-enable myself.