XSF Discussion - 2024-02-16


  1. Guus

    errr.... `<flip-page/>` is not a standard child element of a MAM query, is it?

  2. Guus

    oh, it _is_.

  3. Wirlaburla

    MAM and MUC PMs? Do they go together? Do MUC PMs get archived?

  4. singpolyma

    they should but I'm not sure what every server's policy is

  5. singpolyma

    generally try not to use muc pm if you can avoid it

  6. pep.

    It's stored on the user server generally

  7. pep.

    Not on the muc

  8. singpolyma

    right, that's what I meant

  9. Wirlaburla

    Ah, alrighty. Thanks.

  10. topgun

    Hi, I have a beginner question regarding MUCs

  11. singpolyma

    topgun: go for it

  12. topgun

    I was in a MUC in which one person was creating many users to come and stress us. The person was banned many times, but created more accounts to enter. As last resort the admins had to moderate the room and only let speak who was already in the room before. This has the side effect that it blocks well intentioned people. After some point it seems that the person started to annoy the admins via DM, and they blocked DMs too. Once again, this has many undesired side effects, as innocent people will pay the price. Is there a mechanism which allows less drastic measures? For instance, if a person behaves well in many rooms of a specific servers, the person might get points, and the person could enter a MUC of this server and be granted the right of speaking (otther wise not). Or the admins could follow some approve list of other admins or other servers. Or any other mechanism. Is this possible in XMPP now?

  13. singpolyma

    This is an active area of discussion. Are you at liberty to say what MUC this is

  14. singpolyma

    This is an active area of discussion. Are you at liberty to say what MUC this is?

  15. topgun

    hmm let me ask an admin of that room if I can tell it here

  16. singpolyma

    for example if they haven't yet they may wish to set up https://xmppbl.org/

  17. Wirlaburla

    Knigs strikes again.

  18. deport

    guess who's back

  19. topgun

    > for example if they haven't yet they may wish to set up https://xmppbl.org/ This is basically a blocklist, right? If the person creates new accounts all the time, its easy to bypass this. Is there a whitelist principle, in which people with old accounts, or with good posts in other mucs of same server, etc, has more chance to enter the whitelist?

  20. Zash

    Real time blocklist, new accounts can be added pretty fast.

  21. singpolyma

    MattJ: has some experiments towards account reputation stuff, if you trust the servers

  22. MattJ

    The nice thing about the RAA XEP is that if you don't trust the server, it just means they don't have to get automatic voice, so it's an improvement on a fully moderated channel, and in the worst case it's no worse

  23. singpolyma

    absolutely

  24. topgun

    > Real time blocklist, new accounts can be added pretty fast. If the person is creating new accounts, but using that always on the same MUC, do this special blacklist provide any benefit?

  25. singpolyma

    there's no mod_raa yet is there?

  26. singpolyma

    topgun: if they only attack your muc and nowhere else then no. but usually they are bothering someone else too so we can all work together to slow them down everywhere at once

  27. MattJ

    singpolyma, there isn't. I started trying to integrate it into mod_firewall, but IIRC it wasn't as smooth as I'd have liked

  28. Wirlaburla

    Report to the instance they are making accounts under. If it is multiple of them, report to all.

  29. topgun

    > Report to the instance they are making accounts under. If it is multiple of them, report to all. The admins are tracking the person, but gets tiring for them too to block the new account every 10 min

  30. Wirlaburla

    The admins of the muc or the instances?

  31. arne-bruen

    Btw. Is there a public whitelist on a git repository so that everyone can create pull requests?

  32. arne-bruen

    Maybe we could create one for trusted servers

  33. topgun

    > The admins of the muc or the instances? Of the muc

  34. Menel

    It is the same in every federated and kind of anonymous system. Short of restrictinf everything very tightly for everyone else, there is only slowing down. Especially if the Spammer is personally invested themself and does all this manually without bots.

  35. topgun

    It could be nice if new accounts had a limit of x messages per day, than a little more as time passes, or a little less as the account starts to write bad stuff

  36. topgun

    Like this nobody get silenced right on start

  37. topgun

    This can be a per MUC setting

  38. topgun

    Or for all mucs of a server

  39. singpolyma

    Menel: they're not even taking advantage of federation yet. just the same tricks discord trolls use

  40. topgun

    XMPP is already small enough that we can't afford to silence people who didn't do bad stuff just to stop the 0.1% really annoying people

  41. Menel

    Sound like a nice plugin topgun, ai could see that at least stopping spam that sends like 50 messages at once. But can't prevent one account and then the next to send a message

  42. Menel

    I guess some server already have a something like that. Kicking someone sending x messages at once shortly after a join.

  43. singpolyma

    Yes we have both a room throttle and also mute anyone who breaks the whole throttle by themselves

  44. topgun

    Maybe not kick, but a throttle. For instance:. Recenty user in the muc(or all mucs of a server) has 10 messages per day, then 20 after 1 week, up to 10 per minute after 1 month, making a parametric curve with 3 values. And admins can set it to different values if needed per Person

  45. singpolyma

    Or do like dircord and say after N minutes of being in the room you can talk

  46. singpolyma

    Or do like discord and say after N minutes of being in the room you can talk

  47. topgun

    > Or do like discord and say after N minutes of being in the room you can talk Yes, with a throttle of x messages per hour

  48. topgun

    Which increases over time to a max value

  49. topgun

    In math a curve like this is the logistic curve

  50. singpolyma

    I think you need to use different strategies against different attacks. Throttles are good if they are flooding but won't help if they are trolling

  51. topgun

    > I think you need to use different strategies against different attacks. Throttles are good if they are flooding but won't help if they are trolling If they troll the admin can reset the throttle we if the user was new

  52. topgun

    Or just ban

  53. topgun

    Here's a wikipedia example of the logistic curve:

  54. topgun

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_function

  55. topgun

    Just needs 3 numbers

  56. singpolyma

    Yes, if they're a troll the mod bans them. I don't think throttling them in the meantime helps unless they are also flooding in which case auto mute like we do is sensible i think

  57. topgun

    >> I think you need to use different strategies against different attacks. Throttles are good if they are flooding but won't help if they are trolling > If they troll the admin can reset the throttle we if the user was new *throttle as if the user was new

  58. pep.

    Well john livingston just wrote a slow muc mode module for prosody, maybe it can be applied to subset of users only and will be useful for moderation too :)

  59. pep.

    Except.. it's not that this user is posting many messages really.

  60. topgun

    > Except.. it's not that this user is posting many messages really. For this user he could be throttled to 1 message per day

  61. pep.

    Well, the account

  62. pep.

    not the person behind

  63. topgun

    And I think the point of the throttle is not to reduce the damage of the bad user, which can be banned anyway, but avoid that new people can't speak or that new people has to wait for too long for the approval to speak

  64. pep.

    Or maybe that could be the default for new participants, that is removed with time. Something à la discord yeah

  65. singpolyma

    1 message per day is basically going to feel the same as muted for most participants

  66. singpolyma

    So far the combination if throttles + rtbl is working well for my channel, but everyone has different needs

  67. topgun

    > So far the combination if throttles + rtbl is working well for my channel, but everyone has different needs How do you activate Throttles? What is rtbl?

  68. Menel

    https://xmppbl.org And I would guess prosody Mod_firewall to throttle and take action

  69. Menel

    (or a bot)

  70. singpolyma

    There is a prosody community module for throttles in muc

  71. singpolyma

    You want something like this module that doesn't throttle any members only new people

  72. singpolyma

    It's in use in this MUC also I believe

  73. singpolyma

    Everything is tools to help moderators of course. In the end there is no substitute for a couple extra moderators on the team, helps a bunch too