XSF Discussion - 2024-08-01

Classic https://chaos.social/@icing/112874423068149010

PER ftw.

Much better to do string interpolation to generate YAML, then parse that YAML and do string interpolation to generate even more YAML

0. Welcome

Hi all! Who do we have?

present!

I believe that Matthew just came back online and I think that emus is around too since we were just now chatting in the iteam channel.

Here I am

We'll just wait a bit then

Hey

I'm here, but on a high-latency connection, so excuse me in advance if my reaction time is slow :)

Ok, hoping that emus will show up as well, let's go.

Any items for the agenda?

None here

I see two main things, infrastructure migration and the organization proposal.

Ok. Let's start with those.

1. Infrastructue migration

re infrastructure, see https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XSF_Infrastructure and we’ve had some discussion in the iteam channel as well

I don’t see any board direction needed, but eventually we’ll need to figure out how much we might be paying for things.

So we should try to get this organized in the next ~30 days and report in at the next Board meeting.

IMHO

Yes, thanks for the wiki page, I think it's a very helpful start

Right. I had a look at the Wiki. The list of members was a great blast from the past.

Haha yeah.

As for the paying part, I assume you'll come with a proposal we can then discuss.

I noticed just now that xmpp.net is not listed there, so we should make the services list complete.

Yes for sure.

That list is out of date, and should probably be removed/replaced with a link to the maintained list on xmpp.org

Right now I’m not seeing major expenses - maybe $50/year for an email inbox at Fastmail or whatever, free / inexpensive DNS hosting, mailman service TBD since we haven’t done that research lately, perhaps a few other small things.

here sorryz

emus: welcome

Thanks

stpeter: right

Anyway, we’ll report back to the board next time with something closer to a real proposal.

Thanks guys!

There are cheaper options than Fastmail (Fastmail pricing is per account, but several alternatives are per domain, and I think we would prefer the latter), I can add some to the wiki

👍❤️

Please do. I happen to use Fastmail personally and I haven’t done the research lately on other providers.

Yeah, I use it too, and love it, but I think the price is fairly high for small orgs

> There are cheaper options than Fastmail (Fastmail pricing is per account, but several alternatives are per domain, and I think we would prefer the latter), I can add some to the wiki we could maybe ask peoviders if they host non-profit organisation with a reduced fee or so (a bit offtopic) ↺

Right.

emus: yes, it’s always worth asking!

Mailbox.org maybe too

Sure, add options at the wiki page :-)

Google does that and we would easily qualify. But I understand you're only looking for forwarding, not actual mailboxes?

> Sure, add options at the wiki page :-) ok! ↺

Anyway, that's for iteam.

Thanks for the update!

> Google does that and we would easily qualify. But I understand you're only looking for forwarding, not actual mailboxes? My (personal) wish would that we can also write from official mails. protonmail does not allow.me to.add to.thunderbird without 🤑 ↺

(IMHO we might want one mailbox for info@ but even that might not be necessary.)

Anyway, I suppose the other topic is the organization proposal: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Organization_Proposal

Yes.

2. Organization Proposal

>> Google does that and we would easily qualify. But I understand you're only looking for forwarding, not actual mailboxes? > My (personal) wish would that we can also write from official mails. protonmail does not allow.me to.add to.thunderbird without 🤑 Did you try Proton Bridge?

>> My (personal) wish would that we can also write from official mails. protonmail does not allow.me to.add to.thunderbird without 🤑 > Did you try Proton Bridge? $ ↺

offtopic

iteam@muc.xmpp.org for details on 1., please

> offtopic Yes 😊

> iteam@muc.xmpp.org for details on 1., please +1

This person attempted to retract a previous message, but it's unsupported by your client.

So, the proposal. I have not looked at this. Vacation season over here in Europe.

Anything to report since last meeting?

I have added the notes from the eclipse talk and created a simple comparision table

Right. I need to add some details on NL

https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Organization_Proposal#Informational_talk_with_Eclipse_Foundation_employees

I’ve thought about it intermittently over the past few weeks.

we also need to define the criteria we need to know on.the left. I messed up with the table

So let it lather a bit then until next meeting?

The call with Mike Milinkovich at the Eclipse Foundation was very informative. One concern I have is the cost. It’s easy for a big organization like Eclipse to pay lawyers and accountants and so on, but we don’t have money sitting around to spend on those services.

> So let it lather a bit then until next meeting? I agree because the topic is relevant, and I don’t think there is a consensus.

So I think we should continue to do research, but think hard about how we would pay for a move.

Indeed, as well as the implication on existing agreements the XSF is party in.

(And maybe what else we could do with the money if we didn’t move, if it’s significant)

My other concern is finding volunteers to do certain things in Europe (e.g., banking, taxes). And if we can’t find volunteers, then we need to spend even more money on bookkeeping services, association management services a la amsl.com (what the IETF uses), and so on. It all adds up.

Kev: right!

Indeed

> (And maybe what else we could do with the money if we didn’t move, if it’s significant) 😬 ↺

My current “position” (not set in stone) is that in theory I like the idea of re-homing to Europe, but in practice I struggle with seeing how to make it happen.

I feel more or less the same, but I'd add that I don't yet see a strong enough reason to make it happen

Ok. Keeping this on the agenda.

The most compelling thing so far is that Eclipse said it worked out great for them

Maybe just make a new organisation in europe without direct conenct to xsf?

I feel like it could potentially "work out great", but I wouldn't mind some more concrete benefits :)

and not just "it might allow..."

Another thought is that we could reach out to some our sponsors once we make the options more concrete and see if they have strong feelings about this.

Just as a question, what would the criteria be for closing the org proposal off? Just thinking this could suck time for a long while ifnit was allowed to.

I reiterate that - in light of what the Bylaws prescribes - I made two proposals: 1. move the legal office to EU; 2. maintain two legal offices (one in the US and one in the EU).

nicola: yes

> Another thought is that we could reach out to some our sponsors once we make the options more concrete and see if they have strong feelings about this. 👆 ↺

and members

nicola: I believe the concern was that having two offices could be “the worst of both worlds”, but I suppose it depends on what the European office does, what its legal standing is, etc.

But I feel like nobody has ever said "If only the XSF was in the EU..."

> But I feel like nobody has ever said "If only the XSF was in the EU..." I never said it, but wish to have a foot in here too ↺

I underline that it’s a matter of organization before discussing the legal office in the USA or the EU. I see that there is a need to establish an organization for XSF.

emus: starting a new, separate org without any connection to the XSF doesn’t work because that org would have no access to / control over things like XEPs and other intellectual property.

Setting up a branch in the EU, with a European bank account, would probably be easier and a bunch cheaper indeed. Eclipse's needs were much more complex than ours (currently). E.g. they had paid contractors.

nicola: if by “establish an organization for the XSF” you mean “we need to get more organized about things like fundraising and applying for grants” then perhaps that is the best place to start.

> nicola: I believe the concern was that having two offices could be “the worst of both worlds”, but I suppose it depends on what the European office does, what its legal standing is, etc. Yes, see my last message

I suppose technically we could have an EU XMPP Advocacy Org, but it’s not clear to me that it would be of any benefit.

> nicola: if by “establish an organization for the XSF” you mean “we need to get more organized about things like fundraising and applying for grants” then perhaps that is the best place to start. Yes, indeed

> Setting up a branch in the EU, with a European bank account, would probably be easier and a bunch cheaper indeed. Eclipse's needs were much more complex than ours (currently). E.g. they had paid contractors. i think thats a main reason for that they paid more money ✏ ↺

Very possible

> nicola: if by “establish an organization for the XSF” you mean “we need to get more organized about things like fundraising and applying for grants” then perhaps that is the best place to start. A more structured organisation internally

Applying for grants etc. And then finding we can’t get them because we’re not in the SU would seem to change the landscape a lot. So starting there seems very sane from the peanut gallery.

nicola: yes.

Kev: right, yes, that makes a lot of sense.

Kev: I see what you did there

What autocorrect on my phone did, I fear. Sorry.

Funny anyway

Kev, right, I agree, but as a data point, I've had several grants from the EU after no longer being in the EU

That’s what I suspect. I was just suggesting that the way to find we can’t get grants until/unless we move would start with trying :)

nod

Yeah, being rejected for this would be great push for actually having an EU legal presence, and possibly not before, if I read everyone's opinion.

Kev: But its not only the EU it think its also easier for many EU countries if there is an EU instance ✏

ralphm: agreed

The requirements I have run into are not "you must be based in the EU", but rather that "the project must benefit the EU". XMPP's widespread use in the EU is fairly easily demonstrated.

Ah, that’s interesting and makes sense.

Indeed

Especially if you then can show that you fund people / companies in the EU doing the work.

> The requirements I have run into are not "you must be based in the EU", but rather that "the project must benefit the EU". XMPP's widespread use in the EU is fairly easily demonstrated. Thus, the first thing is internal organization

> The requirements I have run into are not "you must be based in the EU", but rather that "the project must benefit the EU". XMPP's widespread use in the EU is fairly easily demonstrated. Ok, but I assume some funding and actors require it? ✏ ↺

emus: maybe we should cross that bridge when we get there

> emus: maybe we should cross that bridge when we get there ok ↺

emus, I have yet to encounter them, which is why I said earlier that I would like to see evidence of things we could gain from moving to the EU, right now I have seen nothing concrete.

So far we haven't even created one proposal that might be rejected for this reason.

> So far we haven't even created one proposal that might be rejected for this reason. Yes, agreed. back to the actual fight ↺

> emus, I have yet to encounter them, which is why I said earlier that I would like to see evidence of things we could gain from moving to the EU, right now I have seen nothing concrete. ok ↺

Because we seem to be going in a new direction, perhaps in the next meeting (or before) we can sketch out some work that we want to do that might require (or be accelerated with) grants of some kind.

I still think that we should revisit this, so people can think about it a bit more. Keeping it on the agenda

Aye

3. AOB

No AOB here. Anything related to GSoC perhaps?

Yes

I saw some messages on the Board mailing list, in particular regarding NLNet that maybe we should discuss.

A random thanks to everyone for their diligence on this org stuff (and everything else) :)

Kev: this

One of two contributors has not passed unfortunately. The other is therefore nicley contriubuting to Monal client with Thilo Molitor. Feel free to read the blogposts. Btw Monal receive NLnet funding for their UI redesign

> I saw some messages on the Board mailing list, in particular regarding NLNet that maybe we should discuss. ah yes ↺

havent had time to review the flaws Peter found

As yes https://www.ow2.org/view/Events/The_European_Union_must_keep_funding_free_software_open_letter

Thanks Kev

stpeter: did you actually express those quibbles?

As I said, it seems reasonable to me and shows concern about what’s happening in EU policy.

no, but i thought could review

My quibbles were not really material.

Ok. Then I move we sign this letter and publish it on xmpp.org.

+1

> Ok. Then I move we sign this letter and publish it on xmpp.org. Ok, but any vetos or concerns? happy to do this otherwise ✏ ↺

+1

+1

+1

I would also post on the media channels then?

Thanks all!

Motion carries. @emus: can you take care of this. As domicile I would write EU / UK /Global.

Alright

Ok. Anything else?

Posted my statement about Gsoc in between ^

but nothing big

Thanks emus!

4. Date of Next

September 6, 17:00 UTC

Thanks!

5. Close

Thanks all!

Thank you

👏

Thanks, everyone!

> September 6, 17:00 UTC Isnt it 5th? ↺

Thrusday?

Yes, Thursday the 5th.

It’s on the calendar.

See you then. :-)

See you then!

Yes, September 5. My bad

>> nicola: if by “establish an organization for the XSF” you mean “we need to get more organized about things like fundraising and applying for grants” then perhaps that is the best place to start. > A more structured organisation internally nicola: why? I've never once seen anyone complain that the XSF needs more red tape because it moves too fast. ↺