XSF Discussion - 2026-06-14

A user on jabjab.de is the owner of a private group chat on conference.jabjab.de. They can't moderate messages in the group chat using Conversations - long-pressing on a message doesn't show the option to moderate. They _do_ get the option in Cheogram and Monocles Chat, but using that only moderates the message from Cheogram and Monocles, not from Conversations. What gives? 🤔

~There was a namespace bump in the moderation xep. Your server side Module probably needs updating~ Oh never mind. Conversations doesn't do moderation in private groups. (orthogonal to that the namespace may or may not be a problem as well) ✏

I think the medium term solution would be to make moderation on/off configurable on a per room basis to make it consistent

As in you support moderation but ignore it in some channels?

Yes and don't show the button to initiate it

What if I make the channel public, moderate, then make it private again

That would technically work

Though there is no button for that Conversations

But I can prevent this via the same mechanism that prevents servers to disable OMEMO via that downgrade attack if this ever becomes a big issue

So who will be in Vienna in July, what's the best MUC to discuss and organize :) ?

> But I can prevent this via the same mechanism that prevents servers to disable OMEMO via that downgrade attack if this ever becomes a big issue How about 1) kick all Conversations users 2) modify MAM to replace the moderated messages with a tombstone 3) invite them back ↺

That doesn't work if you do that after the message you want to moderate was sent

If you do it before it's simple dos

Hm, can you force Conversations to forget about its history and refresh from MAM?

No

Ah well

is that doable with xmpp in general?

i thought you can delete the convo from local storage and rejoin the room

I think the word force (as a server or third party) was the key here

But yes you can manually clear the history and reload and in that case the moderated message would be gone

`rm -r /*`

there shall be nothing left to fight over

> So who will be in Vienna in July, what's the best MUC to discuss and organize :) ? edhelas: the sprints channel probably

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/14/face-scans-enforce-social-media-ban-under-16s/ After much anticipation, the announcement tomorrow will potentially criminalise and eliminate any decentralised messaging in the UK. What would be the point of decentralised messaging when centralised government ID is a *legal requirement*. I am going ahead with my public provider as planned, and I will not be paying a big tech company for their AI model to scan peoples faces, or pay the government to gain access to ID systems to do so.

People in the UK be aware ^^^

and Sunglocto, moving your servers outside the UK and still serving UK users while living in the UK, doesn't protect you.

Okay so uh

Why don't we IP ban all UK users?

And move our servers outside the UK

That's the best course of action

The smart UK users can use Tor or a VPN to access your server

or just say UK users are banned and trust them not to join

The only way to get Ofcom off your back is ban the UK entirely

Not to "trust they won't join" because that still counts as abiding by Ofcom's rules

> and Sunglocto, moving your servers outside the UK and still serving UK users while living in the UK, doesn't protect you. I am the only user of my service

I am above 18

They backed off a site because they blocked the entirety of the UK, including all the ASNs of the British ISPs ✏

They backed off of a site because they blocked the entirety of the UK, including all the ASNs of the British ISPs ✏

Afterwards, you can just teach UK users to use Tor if they wanna continue accessing your service

why would I care about some backwater country's inhumane rules though ?

Or pay for a VPN

are you also enforcing china's laws for them ?

> why would I care about some backwater country's inhumane rules though ? Because Ofcom will keep sending you letters regardless where you and your servers are located in ↺

> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/06/14/face-scans-enforce-social-media-ban-under-16s/ After much anticipation, the announcement tomorrow will potentially criminalise and eliminate any decentralised messaging in the UK. What would be the point of decentralised messaging when centralised government ID is a *legal requirement*. > > I am going ahead with my public provider as planned, and I will not be paying a big tech company for their AI model to scan peoples faces, or pay the government to gain access to ID systems to do so. I can't read TFA but it seems to talk about social media? Is chat social media to a UK judge? ✏ ↺

And threaten to fine you or some shit

>> why would I care about some backwater country's inhumane rules though ? > > Because Ofcom will keep sending you letters regardless where you and your servers are located in so ? ignore , no jurisdiction , powerless ↺

VPNs are pending legislation to ban them too

How did Kiwi Farms handle Ofcom btw

yes this will compromise the security of many companies, no the government doesn't care.

> How did Kiwi Farms handle Ofcom btw case is still ongoing ↺

I remember despite the fact they aren't anywhere near the UK, they had to block the UK entirely too

for people outside of the UK, unless you are the US in which you have a extradition agreement with the UK, you are mostly safe.

I think Kiwi Farms is based in the US

unless you are under a country's jurisdiction you don't have to do anything they want

That's probably why they blocked the UK quickly ✏

So is 4chan

lol the UK can't extradite a citizen in another country for breaking UK law, it doesn't apply at all

> How did Kiwi Farms handle Ofcom btw Told them to fuck off

thats what kiwi farms is fighting in the US courts if: * The US rules in the favour of kiwi farms, the extradiction agreement signed during blair will be void, this will likely anger the UK and result in UK backlash against the US (which quite frankly would be the UK destroying itself, but hey ho) * The US rules in favour of Ofcom, and extradites US companies to the UK to stand trail, this will violate the first amendment

easy peasy fix > Are you from the UK? > [ ] Yes. > [ ] No. nobody would ever lie on the internet

> thats what kiwi farms is fighting in the US courts if: > > * The US rules in the favour of kiwi farms, the extradiction agreement signed during blair will be void, this will likely anger the UK and result in UK backlash against the US (which quite frankly would be the UK destroying itself, but hey ho) > > * The US rules in favour of Ofcom, and extradites US companies to the UK to stand trail, this will violate the first amendment First time I'll ever be rooting for Kiwi Farms tbh ↺

> unless you are under a country's jurisdiction you don't have to do anything they want moparisthebest, yes this is why I mentioned it will only really affect UK, however the US/UK agreements do make US technically liable too ↺

nope not how it works

Also the UK wants to ban social media for under 16s

however this depends on the kiwi farms case right now in the US, if the US rules in line with the constitution as it should, no US company can be touched by the UK government.

>> How did Kiwi Farms handle Ofcom btw > > Told them to fuck off They INITIALLY did ↺

Does XMPP count as social media?

Now they blocked the UK

Sunglocto, grey area...

social media in the legislation afaik is defined as a platform in which users can post and interact.

in which case, yes XMPP is included...

but ofcom has previously excluded email, so if it can be argued XMPP is basically the same as email, then you would bypass the law

also im pretty sure with the current administration crime is legal in the US so i wouldnt be surprised if people just ignored the first amendment

it's never your responsibility to enforce another country's laws , that's absurd

in any case, we just dont know, the only way to find out is wait until a UK provider gets targetted by ofcom, and then fight it in the courts.

> in any case, we just dont know, the only way to find out is wait until a UK provider gets targetted by ofcom, and then fight it in the courts. Will literally never happen ↺

not like it matters anyways if your server is blocked just make a new one lol

which ironically enough there is a few foundations which will likely fund lawyers for XMPP providers, open rights group and i believe the FSF would too

They'll just quietly comply

> Now they blocked the UK Works for me

> which ironically enough there is a few foundations which will likely fund lawyers for XMPP providers, open rights group and i believe the FSF would too FSF deals with software, I think you mean EFF ↺

https://patchy.moe/-/file/T4Xrn.png

> https://patchy.moe/-/file/T4Xrn.png Really? I remember that white page with instructions on how to enter Kiwi Farms via Tor if your IP was from the UK ↺

moparisthebest, unfortunately there is legal ambiguity about this due to the nature of internet being global. The only real thing the Uk can do without the US government supporting it is block all social media platforms which do not comply. But even then the UK can still target the UK branches of said companies. Most of the big tech companies have UK branches, and thus they can seize the company.

this locks capital in the UK, preventing the parent company from pulling it out, which usually means the companies are gonna comply.

no ambiguity , it's absurd to think my town could pass a law banning XMPP and any of you would have to turn it off

Just block the UK, move out of the UK

> Just block the UK, move out of the UK This

Have literally nothing to do with the UK

And hope to god nothing happens

Ofcom can go scorched earth and try to block tor/i2p/ygg

> no ambiguity , it's absurd to think my town could pass a law banning XMPP and any of you would have to turn it off its absurd, but its exactly what ofcom is trying, and its exactly why there is an ongoing legal battle in the US due to it, if it is ruled that the US will comply, it will not only give the Uk government power over Americans, but will violate your second amendment. ↺

> Ofcom can go scorched earth and try to block tor/i2p/ygg pending ↺

In order to do that they will have to block most of the internet and then fuck up everyone

only tor and vpns are being directly targetted right now

At that point maybe "think of the children" will finally die

vpns in the law mean any end to end encryption too!

so no OMEMO

Genuine insanity from this government

I'd like to see them try

Just treat the UK as if it doesn't exist at all, like a giant body of sea in its place ✏

no germans, brits, or eu citizens have been allowed to join my servers for years, I assume they all read the MOTD and comply, if not not my problem

Sunglocto, welp I was kinda shocked

I have listed to it on the radio for weeks

"Starmer pledges to ban social media for under 16"

and me thinking "he wouldnt be *that* stupid"

> "Starmer pledges to ban social media for under 16" Barely any coverage on the news btw

> only tor and vpns are being directly targetted right now I'd like to see them try ↺

China can barely even block VPNs lol

So many Chinese citizens using VPNs to interact with the outside world

>> no ambiguity , it's absurd to think my town could pass a law banning XMPP and any of you would have to turn it off > its absurd, but its exactly what ofcom is trying, and its exactly why there is an ongoing legal battle in the US due to it, if it is ruled that the US will comply, it will not only give the Uk government power over Americans, but will violate your second amendment. oh I believe they might want it but unfortunately for them I don't have to care ↺

but we will see tomorrow, when he stands on his stupid podium and announces he will annex any liberty not yet annexed by the snooper charter, OSA, and the numerious assiocation and protesting laws passed under blair, when he didn't want people protesting against him levelling Bahhdad.

come and take it ;)

I'm not gonna bother with whatever crap they'll make up about blocking VPNs

but as I will highlight, and mopar already has, the only epople who need to be worried are people who *LIVE* in the UK

the worst a foreign operator can get, is banned by the UK

If China, one of the most smartest nations in the world, can't do it

I have no hopes the UK will either

It will be functionally impossible for them to do it

> It will be functionally impossible for them to do it no its not impossible, its just a matter of how far will they go ↺

even China hasn't went full on

Bureaucracy and cost alone is a massive barrier and even on a purely technical basis there is so much collateral that it simply isn't worth it

maybe it'll get so bad citizens will wake up and do something

It isn't impossible however they will get lynched if they try

So they won't do it

> maybe it'll get so bad citizens will wake up and do something thats the only way it works mate, only when you loose all liberty do people actually realise. ↺

> even China hasn't went full on They did for a short while ↺

"I have nothing to hide"

> China can barely even block VPNs lol That’s probably intentional

Also polarian i think you are being kind of paranoid

I will keep the further politics from the channel due to the controversial nature, but lets just say the UK gov has already rounded up political opposition and attempted to arrest them in the past.

You and I both know this government is too chickenshit and bankrupt to actually meaningfully block the internet without crippling itself

*on both sides*

so when people say they have nothing to hide, they should really be hiding everything!

> social media in the legislation afaik is defined as a platform in which users can post and interact. So if we don't support "post" in the app maybe it's fine. I wonder if a MUC counts as "post" ↺

> Also polarian i think you are being kind of paranoid Sunglocto, nope, you just don't believe how bad it can get. But I know full well from the history books it can. Such power hasn't been enacted since the 1940s-1970s but it still is possible. ↺

> Also polarian i think you are being kind of paranoid The best kind of noid ↺

> So if we don't support "post" in the app maybe it's fine. I wonder if a MUC counts as "post" IANAL ↺

Also I wonder if Minecraft is considered social media by that idiotic definition

> Also I wonder if Minecraft is considered social media by that idiotic definition it is ↺

You can join, say things and itneract with others

MC has already implemented age verification to some extent

Use a book and quill as a post and map art for images

Mojang/Microsoft has pledged to go further

> MC has already implemented age verification to some extent nothing that offline mode and a mod can't bypass ↺

Isn't under 16s the main demo for Minecraft?

> nothing that offline mode and a mod can't bypass true ↺

> Isn't under 16s the main demo for Minecraft? xD ↺

> Isn't under 16s the main demo for Minecraft? Yes ↺

afaik Mojang only disables chat

you can play the game but not send messages

I dont know the specifics, read their blog post on it

oh. That makes sense I guess. I mean you don't really need servers anyway unless you have friends

The UK isn't like China

Unlike China, they do not have a self-sustaining sovereign economy

That they can survive on without the outside world

https://modrinth.com/mod/no-chat-restrictions https://modrinth.com/mod/no-chat-reports Then in server.properties turn online-mode to false, enforce-secure-profile to false and install an auth mod

Bypasses literally everything

China do not have a self sustaining economy, I will not go into the economics of it, but if China stopped trading today, the country would collapse

And takes like what, 10 minutes to do?

China relies heavily on the global markets

We don't need to get into economics thanks

sorry. With my mod hat on: we don't need to get into economics thanks.

> Bypasses literally everything yes but if big servers did this they can be hit with DMCA takedowns ↺

All of the big servers do this actually

Literally all of them

> sorry. > > > With my mod hat on: we don't need to get into economics thanks. you dont need to put your silly hat on, I said I wasn't getting into it, I simply pointed out that they arent, so within Cynthia's point, China/UK would be no different. ↺

Sunglocto, I have not heard of it, afaik the big ones comply

>> Bypasses literally everything > yes but if big servers did this they can be hit with DMCA takedowns They'll get blacklisted in the official Minecraft client ↺

> Sunglocto, I have not heard of it, afaik the big ones comply No they do not

I can log onto Hypixel right now and my chat will be unreportable

It wouldn't surprise me if Ofcom makes a "games" category with similar but different rules

Microsoft maintains a server blacklist within their client and will refuse you from connecting to any blacklisted servers

What about localhost?

They did this to several servers, most of which had 18+ content

do they blacklist localhost?

> do they blacklist localhost? No ↺

> I can log onto Hypixel right now and my chat will be unreportable oh i was talking about online mode :p ↺

Teens are still smart enough to run socat right? Now every server is localhost

Lmao there are so many cracked servers that they probably outnumber valid ones

I mean yeah, if you cracked Minecraft, the blacklist doesn't matter

It's probably disabled

it also disables any encryption

so bare in mind, the server in offline mode is vulnerable to mitm

this is obviously intentional

anyways ot, make a mc channel if u wanna discuss this :p

Bear in mind

> it also disables any encryption Then use ygg ↺

Wouldn't be surprised if Minecraft silently phones home with servers you connect to

So they can review it for mature content

> Then use ygg or a vpn sure ↺

> anyways ot, make a mc channel if u wanna discuss this :p > ^^^ ↺

> Wouldn't be surprised if Minecraft silently phones home with servers you connect to afaik it already does phone home ↺